|
On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game?
See, while I think Stalker's could be used to solve the solution, I REALLY like how terrible Stalkers and Hydralisks are. If they were even slightly too strong, the game could very easily become Stalker/Hydra spam. Well-rounded units like them really must be hell to balance.
The "problem" is incredibly complex and will generally come down to many things, I suspect.
Fixing early game: For one, slowing down Terran early game. Tons of ways to do this .Research times, build-time adjustments, etc. Might even make sense to add some more upgrades that are only available in late-game for the standard MM ball. Alternatively, speeding up Protoss. Faster charge, faster storm, etc. This would balance early game and break the rest.
Fixing mid-game: Mid-game is relatively balanced, which is part of my tweaking early-game is so hard for Blizzard, I imagine, as any nerf or buff in early game will break mid-game.
I think the only problem might be too many "build order losses". I can't think of many examples right now, but for both sides there seem to be many situations where if you do Y and they do X, you insta-lose. It should be harder to out-right lose in mid-game, but players should be able to secure significant advantages here. The Void Ray tweaks, I believe, were mainly meant to prevent the type of situation I'm talking about.
I still think Void Rays should be tweaked to be viable as a "containment" unit like Banshees or Mutas. 2.25 base speed and SO terrible versus any amount of marines makes them hard to use in this role. I want Void Rays to be something you can use without winning or losing instantly.
Late Game: Terran needs something to do that isn't MMM. The Thor change was a great first step in that direction. Siege tanks are terrible versus Protoss. In super late-game, Ghosts become far harder to use effectively than High Templar.
I think in the end, siege-tanks will need to be buffed in the TvP matchup slightly. Protoss has SO many ways of mitigating then, Immortals with hardened shields, Phoenixes, Blink Stalkers, Chargelots-- even HTs do very well. Siege tanks being powerful against Protoss would allow Terran to make better use of its slow big units, Thors, BCs, etc. Terran would be the powerful, lumbering, slow race in late-game if they don't go MMM, and Protoss would be the mobile, flexibly army. As it is now, Terran has to stick MMM to deal with the Protoss mobility.
Of note is that Protoss' shields can be used to balance units to do better against Protoss without affecting other matchups.
Also, some adjustments to Hellions to make them better in the TvP matchup, other than for killing probes, would be great.
|
On October 27 2010 01:28 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game? I Just wished Stalkers could attack faster
yeah stalker upgrades and dps in general is just absolutely pathetic.
does anyone else feel like thors are so freaking out of place?
i mean does terran mech need more firepower when it already has tanks?
this unit is huge, bigger like 5 supply depots, it sidesteps on the roles of tanks and marauders too much and its anti-air is kinda like a crapshoot. basically if you opponent doesnt pay attention and stacks mutas then 1 or 2 shots will kill a whole flock of mutas, otherwise its this slowass missile turret almost as big as a planetary fortress.
|
On October 27 2010 01:48 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:28 Blasterion wrote:On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game? I Just wished Stalkers could attack faster yeah stalker upgrades and dps in general is just absolutely pathetic. does anyone else feel like thors are so freaking out of place? i mean does terran mech need more firepower when it already has tanks? this unit is huge, bigger like 5 supply depots, it sidesteps on the roles of tanks and marauders too much and its anti-air is kinda like a crapshoot. basically if you opponent doesnt pay attention and stacks mutas then 1 or 2 shots will kill a whole flock of mutas, otherwise its this slowass missile turret almost as big as a planetary fortress.
Thors are kinda like Anti Air Siege tanks only traded firepower for mobility
|
On October 27 2010 01:38 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game? See, while I think Stalker's could be used to solve the solution, I REALLY like how terrible Stalkers and Hydralisks are. If they were even slightly too strong, the game could very easily become Stalker/Hydra spam. Well-rounded units like them really must be hell to balance.
Stalker feel weak to me at the moment... they are even worse than Immortals (even when fighting non-armored!) if you are fighting ground units that doesnt kite you due to higher dps per cost(same non-armored), more life, not losing half of their dps when half life is lost and for example not "wasting" attacks on Medivacs randomly.
Move speed and Range difference arent that important in mid to big battles.
A buff to their dps wont make them too strong soon.
|
Here's a novel idea. Give stalkers a slower, stronger attack, with a potential range upgrade at the cybernetics core.
4 range (+2 ups)
20 attack ground and air, but also much slower.
Oh yea, I'm onto something.
|
On October 27 2010 02:13 Achilles wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Give stalkers a slower, stronger attack, with a potential range upgrade at the cybernetics core.
4 range (+2 ups)
20 attack ground and air, but also much slower.
Oh yea, I'm onto something.
Its called a dragoon lol
if they do that PDD will be stronger. Imo we should do the opposite. Faster and weaker. But thats an hydralisk
|
On October 27 2010 02:20 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 02:13 Achilles wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Give stalkers a slower, stronger attack, with a potential range upgrade at the cybernetics core.
4 range (+2 ups)
20 attack ground and air, but also much slower.
Oh yea, I'm onto something. Its called a dragoon lol if they do that PDD will be stronger. Imo we should do the opposite. Faster and weaker. But thats an hydralisk
You got pretty good metaforum. Not gonna lie.
|
On October 27 2010 02:13 Achilles wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Give stalkers a slower, stronger attack, with a potential range upgrade at the cybernetics core.
4 range (+2 ups)
20 attack ground and air, but also much slower.
Oh yea, I'm onto something.
Roach that shoots up.
|
concussive shell is the retarded thing here, they want reason why T is op early game? thats the answer that definately shouldnt be fcking 50/50 and 50 seconds research time. It should be a T2 upgrade.
M is ok itself, it is the slow that makes a team of 3 marauders and 2 marines in a medivac so god damn cost effective, this is beyond imagination how they can not see that
on the stage they said that they do want marauder to dominate early game, well ok.
stimmed marauder takes 2 stalkers alone already, the slow is just overkill for the early game
conc shell should be a t2 upgrade, much like reaper upgrade right now, that would be the actuall counter for immortals or colossus (stim hit slow snipe run away) terran defifuckinately does not need 50% snare at 3rd min into the game, there is no way P can be agressive against T when conc shell is researched, this is so stupid
T is already safe with its bunkers that cost 0
if they want to make a change to TvP early game, they should consider giving factory requirement to conc shell for marauders
consequence will be much balanced earliest game while marauder will still be as powerful as it is right now during medivac drops or at early mid game when P actually has any chance to defend of in the open field
rather than camp on 1 base hope to get colossus in time
if they want to fix late game, they should give it some time, imo
Storm is so much underused right now, that T dont really respond correctly to it, EMP already has bigger range and is cheaper
tbh i dont really know why T players dont do 3 rax ghost exp play, it completely deals with any robo, gateway units just melt before colossus kills anything when there are 2 colossus up at most
P uses colossus over storm so that T dont have that much practice against storm, so they bang die when P gets both colossus and storm
Bio is already so god damn cost effective that storm probably doesnt need a change, its just terran players mentally change themselves not to rush into protoss who has storms, i guess its much like trying to 4 gate t who has 3 bunkers up ramp
simple switch from bio to tanks will do with the storm on defence, on offence as well when you get enough tanks, much of a problem to switch from bio to vikings to tanks ghost?
and blue flame helions ofc, P will be zealot heavy
|
On October 26 2010 14:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Yeah, that's a large factor of it, but it just feels like there is no late game army that works for Terran. In one of Loner's games he had banshees and vikings and ghosts and marine marauder against a Templar colossus gateway unit army and there was still very little he could do.
Last week i watched a clan war serie on gomtv, it was prime vs tsl i think? Maka was playing for prime and he won every match. One of the match was vs a protoss, Maka was the best player of this i have no doubt, the end game was Collosus + templar + chargelots vs Marauder + ghost + medeveac.
The way maka could dodge storm and heal up, emp templars and control his army was just amazing. His Marauders just wouldnt die. The ghost made it so templar had a rough time and, kept gateway counts units down because they died faster, so colossus didnt have a huge wall of fodder in front of them and marauder with stim could maneuver around and snipe collosus. Terran are not using ghost nearly enough.
|
agreed with friend23 on everything about marauders. i also think conc shells should be 100/100 or more, definately not 50/50.
also, they cant nerf storm. storm has already been nerfed to hell, its damn near useless in pvp.
i think the main problem is the combo of amulet upgrade and warpgates.
as a protoss player, i would be fine without the amulet upgrade if they buff protoss in another way, such as removing dark shrine altogether and dts only require archives or a research ability, or making storm research faster.
as it stands, templar is a huge investment that is really weak when you transition then it spikes up in terms of power when you get tons of high templar with amulet upgrade.
making dark templar more accessible is an indirect way to slow down the terran because they will have to turret up.
only thing is zerg needs a devasting invisible unit.
|
On October 27 2010 02:41 Dreadwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 14:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Yeah, that's a large factor of it, but it just feels like there is no late game army that works for Terran. In one of Loner's games he had banshees and vikings and ghosts and marine marauder against a Templar colossus gateway unit army and there was still very little he could do. Last week i watched a clan war serie on gomtv, it was prime vs tsl i think? Maka was playing for prime and he won every match. One of the match was vs a protoss, Maka was the best player of this i have no doubt, the end game was Collosus + templar + chargelots vs Marauder + ghost + medeveac. The way maka could dodge storm and heal up, emp templars and control his army was just amazing. His Marauders just wouldnt die. The ghost made it so templar had a rough time and, kept gateway counts units down because they died faster, so colossus didnt have a huge wall of fodder in front of them and marauder with stim could maneuver around and snipe collosus. Terran are not using ghost nearly enough.
The problem isnt that Ghost doesnt counter HTs, its that p can warp in storm on demand.
|
On October 27 2010 02:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 02:13 Achilles wrote:
Here's a novel idea. Give stalkers a slower, stronger attack, with a potential range upgrade at the cybernetics core.
4 range (+2 ups)
20 attack ground and air, but also much slower.
Oh yea, I'm onto something. Roach that shoots up.
or a dragoon
|
On October 27 2010 01:38 Ndugu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game? See, while I think Stalker's could be used to solve the solution, I REALLY like how terrible Stalkers and Hydralisks are. If they were even slightly too strong, the game could very easily become Stalker/Hydra spam. Well-rounded units like them really must be hell to balance. The "problem" is incredibly complex and will generally come down to many things, I suspect. Fixing early game: For one, slowing down Terran early game. Tons of ways to do this .Research times, build-time adjustments, etc. Might even make sense to add some more upgrades that are only available in late-game for the standard MM ball. Alternatively, speeding up Protoss. Faster charge, faster storm, etc. This would balance early game and break the rest. Fixing mid-game: Mid-game is relatively balanced, which is part of my tweaking early-game is so hard for Blizzard, I imagine, as any nerf or buff in early game will break mid-game. I think the only problem might be too many "build order losses". I can't think of many examples right now, but for both sides there seem to be many situations where if you do Y and they do X, you insta-lose. It should be harder to out-right lose in mid-game, but players should be able to secure significant advantages here. The Void Ray tweaks, I believe, were mainly meant to prevent the type of situation I'm talking about. I still think Void Rays should be tweaked to be viable as a "containment" unit like Banshees or Mutas. 2.25 base speed and SO terrible versus any amount of marines makes them hard to use in this role. I want Void Rays to be something you can use without winning or losing instantly. Late Game: Terran needs something to do that isn't MMM. The Thor change was a great first step in that direction. Siege tanks are terrible versus Protoss. In super late-game, Ghosts become far harder to use effectively than High Templar. I think in the end, siege-tanks will need to be buffed in the TvP matchup slightly. Protoss has SO many ways of mitigating then, Immortals with hardened shields, Phoenixes, Blink Stalkers, Chargelots-- even HTs do very well. Siege tanks being powerful against Protoss would allow Terran to make better use of its slow big units, Thors, BCs, etc. Terran would be the powerful, lumbering, slow race in late-game if they don't go MMM, and Protoss would be the mobile, flexibly army. As it is now, Terran has to stick MMM to deal with the Protoss mobility. Of note is that Protoss' shields can be used to balance units to do better against Protoss without affecting other matchups. Also, some adjustments to Hellions to make them better in the TvP matchup, other than for killing probes, would be great.
the tank part is very very sensitie
i posted on bnet forums a suggestion to increase tanks damage but slow shooting rate so that it hits like a truck and has slow attack speed, effect of this would be increasing the amount of tanks needed to achieve its critical mass
pre patch it was 13 tanks, you dominate, i wish it was like 20+ to dominate,
still, any 7 + tanks + bio is terribly hard to overcome, immortals work only in small battles, phoenixes work in even smaller battles,
as for me, anytime t goes tank heavy the only viable lategame response is carriers atm
|
On October 27 2010 02:41 Dreadwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 14:10 MythicalMage wrote:
Yeah, that's a large factor of it, but it just feels like there is no late game army that works for Terran. In one of Loner's games he had banshees and vikings and ghosts and marine marauder against a Templar colossus gateway unit army and there was still very little he could do. Last week i watched a clan war serie on gomtv, it was prime vs tsl i think? Maka was playing for prime and he won every match. One of the match was vs a protoss, Maka was the best player of this i have no doubt, the end game was Collosus + templar + chargelots vs Marauder + ghost + medeveac. The way maka could dodge storm and heal up, emp templars and control his army was just amazing. His Marauders just wouldnt die. The ghost made it so templar had a rough time and, kept gateway counts units down because they died faster, so colossus didnt have a huge wall of fodder in front of them and marauder with stim could maneuver around and snipe collosus. Terran are not using ghost nearly enough.
thats what i just said about the late game, T just cant use Ghosts properly right now, cause storm is underused, they just have not enough practice
ghost is just such a hard counter to hts
you can emp, it has longer range than feedback
you can 2 shot snipe, lower energy cost
you can just fking cloak and target fire hts with 3 ghosts
you can cloak and snipe or cloak and emp
you can scan and take out observers with vikings, you already have them cuz p was first going colossus, then do the cloak job
or you can just have enough tanks and move forward slowly so that any hts that come just DIE
its not like T lacks tools vs Storm, this aspect of the game just needs time
|
On October 27 2010 02:45 Condor Hero wrote:
agreed with friend23 on everything about marauders. i also think conc shells should be 100/100 or more, definately not 50/50.
also, they cant nerf storm. storm has already been nerfed to hell, its damn near useless in pvp.
i think the main problem is the combo of amulet upgrade and warpgates.
as a protoss player, i would be fine without the amulet upgrade if they buff protoss in another way, such as removing dark shrine altogether and dts only require archives or a research ability, or making storm research faster.
as it stands, templar is a huge investment that is really weak when you transition then it spikes up in terms of power when you get tons of high templar with amulet upgrade.
making dark templar more accessible is an indirect way to slow down the terran because they will have to turret up.
only thing is zerg needs a devasting invisible unit.
thanks man,
and about the amulet + warpgates, yes, cause you warp in and throw a storm, not only once it happened to me (i pref storm over colossus vs t bio) that after i already lost whole army and he was coming for me, i managed to threw 4 good storms so that last HT scores 20 kills and suddenly im back in game
this is pretty stupid
amulet could be removed, but only if feedback is a viable counter to ghost, currently emp has higher range so it is not (yet you can always miss, but we cant take that into consideration)
then without amulet it would rely on 'be ready' with hts and have them prepeared, that would make ht be usable almost only defensively or when you already outmacroed enemy and almost won
just removing the amulet will be an overkill to storm
as for HT vs Storm, i made a thread, it sadly got closed cause it was a balance discussion which is not allowed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162954
that could be a possible balance fix to late game as for ghost vs ht aspect
|
On October 27 2010 02:45 Condor Hero wrote:
agreed with friend23 on everything about marauders. i also think conc shells should be 100/100 or more, definately not 50/50.
also, they cant nerf storm. storm has already been nerfed to hell, its damn near useless in pvp.
i think the main problem is the combo of amulet upgrade and warpgates.
as a protoss player, i would be fine without the amulet upgrade if they buff protoss in another way, such as removing dark shrine altogether and dts only require archives or a research ability, or making storm research faster.
as it stands, templar is a huge investment that is really weak when you transition then it spikes up in terms of power when you get tons of high templar with amulet upgrade.
making dark templar more accessible is an indirect way to slow down the terran because they will have to turret up.
only thing is zerg needs a devasting invisible unit.
thanks man,
and about the amulet + warpgates, yes, cause you warp in and throw a storm, not only once it happened to me (i pref storm over colossus vs t bio) that after i already lost whole army and he was coming for me, i managed to threw 4 good storms so that last HT scores 20 kills and suddenly im back in game
this is pretty stupid
amulet could be removed, but only if feedback is a viable counter to ghost, currently emp has higher range so it is not (yet you can always miss, but we cant take that into consideration)
then without amulet it would rely on 'be ready' with hts and have them prepeared, that would make ht be usable almost only defensively or when you already outmacroed enemy and almost won
just removing the amulet will be an overkill to storm
as for HT vs Storm, i made a thread, it sadly got closed cause it was a balance discussion which is not allowed here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162954
that could be a possible balance fix to late game as for ghost vs ht aspect
|
you can remove amulet if you buff storm again, cant you?
|
On October 26 2010 19:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:09 mutantmagnet wrote:
Terran are only weaker at the late game because of how poorly everyone (I'm talking about all three races) is playing the game at the late stage even the (vast majority of) pros.
When Terrans get into the late game it usually is a bio ball and if it is TvT a tank viking wall. Terrans haven't figured out how to transition into their final tier unit the Battlecruiser and build up a supporting army of units to assist the BC core.
The BC core? Are you actually being serious? The only race that can viably switch to mass T3 units is Zerg, and that's because they can produce a critical mass of them before fielding them. Battlecruisers are impossible to bring into TvT because the opponent will already have enough vikings to take them down. Same with TvP, blink stalkers absolutely demolish small numbers of BCs, and a critical mass of Mutas will do the same. Unless you manage to hide them until you have 5-6 BCs with plenty of energy for Yamatoing, your opponent will already have cost-effective counters to them without even needing to plan for it. And it's generally bad to spend 2400/1800 on units you're not going to use for 4-5 minutes. BCs (and Carriers for that matter) will never be a "core unit". And they're really not suited for endgame as much as they are suited for beefing up midgame armies as support units.
i dont agree, youre not supposed to go 4starport BC out of 3 expos but find a way to flawly transition into them at ~35th min into the game, out of 1 starport
and not use it like during the BC campaign mssion but as a support
same goes for P, carrier is so great when you bring a few, as a support, while still having 100/200 supply of core units
if he focus fire, micro it so that it takes hits but doesnt die, still, you just earned 4 seconds of free shotting on enemy out of your 100/200 army at the enemy, he doesnt focus fire? even better BC carrier and BL have so freaking high DPS that it will do good for you
there is no more scourges in this game, you an use them against Z well, TvT probably not, against P? just emp your own BCs
|
On October 27 2010 03:06 Pepe- wrote:
you can remove amulet if you buff storm again, cant you?
maybe, but seeing that you can 2 shot a HT with 1 cloaked banshee, or 2 shot snipe it with cloaked ghost, it might be very very tough against P, doing that should be propabably followed by a bio nerf, but we dont want that, or gateway units buff, unless storm buff will be insane
but that will be bad as well since it would then be about 'if T can kill HTs before they storm', thats much like same what we got now 'can P survive long enough to get storm'
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
