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On October 26 2010 13:42 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:
I think a few posters have made very adequate points concerning PvT in the late game.
Normally (even in pro replays I see and GSL and BlizzCon and the such) once a Terran sees Collosus, the number of vikings is way overcompensated so that once the protoss has switched to HT's, the terran has all this supply that is taken by units that are now useless (even on feet form). Say there is 6 vikings, that is 12 supply that is semi-useless in 200/200 battles. That could have been 6 marauders or even better, ghosts as we all know which help IMMENSELY versus HT's. Even when they don't EMP the High templar, EMPing the main force of stalkers/sentries/zealots is almost equivalent to a instant psi storm with larger range that can't be dodged.
So maybe it is just me, but I think that the problem late game is that Terran just has a few useless units laying around that contribute little, if any, to 200/200 battles.
Myeah, in one way I wonder if not the fact that collossi can be targeted by air only units like vikings is the bane of terran. It would seem like an advantage at first glance but if you removed this, making vikings and phoenix etc incapable of shooting collossi then I think you could in turn nerf the collosus itself. Perhaps reduce the range or reduce the damage or the splash range of the colossus to make it more approachable by ground. In the end the status quo would remain, the collossus would get a huge buff by now not being vulnerable to corruptor/viking and then getting an equal nerf.
The result would I think be that you could now actually approach the colossus with ground forces which would still end up in a balanced fight but you would not have to skew your unit comp to get there.
However I think the problem might actually still be with the high templar because banshee's are actually far far stronger against collossi. They do more damage and they are actually useful after the collossus is dead. But feedback is just so damn strong. It does not make sense that you should have to research the cloak ability only to have a way to drain your own units of energy to not have them be oneshotted by templar, or that you should have to get ghosts to emp your own battlecruisers to not lose them.
Feedback is great and it is an important tool but perhaps there is a way to streamline it a bit better.
I don't think that feedback should be able to kill a unit at full health which is often the case when you are doing a medivac drop. I think that it would be reasonable that no matter what unit, if it is at full energy when being feedbacked, it should not lose more than 50% of its hp.
One option to even it out would be to nerf the damage of feedback or even remove it completely but give feedback an different effect besides draining the energy ot the target unit.
Perhaps drain all energy and stun the unit for a certain amount of time. Like a single target fungal growth. This would make feedback very useful still against drops but in a more sensible way. A medivac comes in, protoss warps in a templar and drains the medivac of energy and stuns it for five seconds with one spell. The terran can still actually do something though and unload the units and protoss will have to bring in some units to kill the drop off or he needs to intercept the drop from the start with both stalkers and a templar and not just one templar.
All in all the feedback ability should be just as good against everything in this form but the way it is good would make more sense and actually give the terran the ability to respond, rather than just seeing all the banshee's disappear without a chance to react.
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Obvious solution to this entire PvT/TvP problem: make mech able to be used.
But instead we're going to see a continuous nerf loop back and forth between protoss aoe and terran bio for the next six months. Sigh.
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Additional thought, maybe a lot would change if colossi could not walk over units but had the same collision as all other units in the game. No matter how open the map in a late game situation you rarely fight in a spot open enough to let two 200/200 armies engage while being able to form a full concave.
Colossi are actually better and better the later the game goes on and the larger the armies grow because of the fact that they can neatly sit on top of the protoss deathball in the center and not take up as much terrain. As a terran who experiments with thors in the lategame against protoss I kind of get a feel for how different it would be for the protoss colossi army to fight if colossi just like thors would get stuck behind units unless microed correctly.
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On October 26 2010 14:24 VanGarde wrote:
Myeah, in one way I wonder if not the fact that collossi can be targeted by air only units like vikings is the bane of terran. It would seem like an advantage at first glance but if you removed this, making vikings and phoenix etc incapable of shooting collossi then I think you could in turn nerf the collosus itself. Perhaps reduce the range or reduce the damage or the splash range of the colossus to make it more approachable by ground. In the end the status quo would remain, the collossus would get a huge buff by now not being vulnerable to corruptor/viking and then getting an equal nerf.
The result would I think be that you could now actually approach the colossus with ground forces which would still end up in a balanced fight but you would not have to skew your unit comp to get there.
What a horrible proposal. I don't understand complaints about colossi except in PvP. They are very, very expensive. Their initial short range makes them extremely vulnerable to vikings, banshees, thors and marauders. What's the problem? Vikings in the late game are also not that bad. They allow you to do a lot of harassment. With siege tanks, vikings and ghosts the Terran still outranges everything the Protoss has.
Blizzard should make the thor to be able to use his anti-air attacks against colossi, though.
On October 26 2010 14:24 VanGarde wrote:
However I think the problem might actually still be with the high templar because banshee's are actually far far stronger against collossi. They do more damage and they are actually useful after the collossus is dead. But feedback is just so damn strong. It does not make sense that you should have to research the cloak ability only to have a way to drain your own units of energy to not have them be oneshotted by templar, or that you should have to get ghosts to emp your own battlecruisers to not lose them.
Feedback is great and it is an important tool but perhaps there is a way to streamline it a bit better.
I don't think that feedback should be able to kill a unit at full health which is often the case when you are doing a medivac drop. I think that it would be reasonable that no matter what unit, if it is at full energy when being feedbacked, it should not lose more than 50% of its hp.
One option to even it out would be to nerf the damage of feedback or even remove it completely but give feedback an different effect besides draining the energy ot the target unit.
Perhaps drain all energy and stun the unit for a certain amount of time. Like a single target fungal growth. This would make feedback very useful still against drops but in a more sensible way. A medivac comes in, protoss warps in a templar and drains the medivac of energy and stuns it for five seconds with one spell. The terran can still actually do something though and unload the units and protoss will have to bring in some units to kill the drop off or he needs to intercept the drop from the start with both stalkers and a templar and not just one templar.
All in all the feedback ability should be just as good against everything in this form but the way it is good would make more sense and actually give the terran the ability to respond, rather than just seeing all the banshee's disappear without a chance to react.
If you want to counter feedback, use up the energy of the banshees and medivacs before a battle.
I don't like to see feedback's balance touched.
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On October 26 2010 15:24 Perscienter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 14:24 VanGarde wrote:
Myeah, in one way I wonder if not the fact that collossi can be targeted by air only units like vikings is the bane of terran. It would seem like an advantage at first glance but if you removed this, making vikings and phoenix etc incapable of shooting collossi then I think you could in turn nerf the collosus itself. Perhaps reduce the range or reduce the damage or the splash range of the colossus to make it more approachable by ground. In the end the status quo would remain, the collossus would get a huge buff by now not being vulnerable to corruptor/viking and then getting an equal nerf.
The result would I think be that you could now actually approach the colossus with ground forces which would still end up in a balanced fight but you would not have to skew your unit comp to get there. What a horrible proposal. I don't understand complaints about colossi except in PvP. They are very, very expensive. Their initial short range makes them extremely vulnerable to vikings, banshees, thors and marauders. What's the problem? Vikings in the late game are also not that bad. They allow you to do a lot of harassment. With siege tanks, vikings and ghosts the Terran still outranges everything the Protoss has. Blizzard should make the thor to be able to use his anti-air attacks against colossi, though.
Just want to mention real quick, Vikings are terrible ground units and using them for harass is fairly limited, due to the 3 second transformation time and requirement of being over open ground first.
On October 26 2010 15:24 Perscienter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 14:24 VanGarde wrote:
However I think the problem might actually still be with the high templar because banshee's are actually far far stronger against collossi. They do more damage and they are actually useful after the collossus is dead. But feedback is just so damn strong. It does not make sense that you should have to research the cloak ability only to have a way to drain your own units of energy to not have them be oneshotted by templar, or that you should have to get ghosts to emp your own battlecruisers to not lose them.
Feedback is great and it is an important tool but perhaps there is a way to streamline it a bit better.
I don't think that feedback should be able to kill a unit at full health which is often the case when you are doing a medivac drop. I think that it would be reasonable that no matter what unit, if it is at full energy when being feedbacked, it should not lose more than 50% of its hp.
One option to even it out would be to nerf the damage of feedback or even remove it completely but give feedback an different effect besides draining the energy ot the target unit.
Perhaps drain all energy and stun the unit for a certain amount of time. Like a single target fungal growth. This would make feedback very useful still against drops but in a more sensible way. A medivac comes in, protoss warps in a templar and drains the medivac of energy and stuns it for five seconds with one spell. The terran can still actually do something though and unload the units and protoss will have to bring in some units to kill the drop off or he needs to intercept the drop from the start with both stalkers and a templar and not just one templar.
All in all the feedback ability should be just as good against everything in this form but the way it is good would make more sense and actually give the terran the ability to respond, rather than just seeing all the banshee's disappear without a chance to react. If you want to counter feedback, use up the energy of the banshees and medivacs before a battle. I don't like to see feedback's balance touched.
I would like to have Feedback be left alone as well, but your proposal on wasting Banshee/Medivac energy is incredibly stupid. I really hope you are being facetious.
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On October 26 2010 10:09 mutantmagnet wrote:
Terran are only weaker at the late game because of how poorly everyone (I'm talking about all three races) is playing the game at the late stage even the (vast majority of) pros.
When Terrans get into the late game it usually is a bio ball and if it is TvT a tank viking wall. Terrans haven't figured out how to transition into their final tier unit the Battlecruiser and build up a supporting army of units to assist the BC core.
The BC core? Are you actually being serious?
The only race that can viably switch to mass T3 units is Zerg, and that's because they can produce a critical mass of them before fielding them. Battlecruisers are impossible to bring into TvT because the opponent will already have enough vikings to take them down. Same with TvP, blink stalkers absolutely demolish small numbers of BCs, and a critical mass of Mutas will do the same. Unless you manage to hide them until you have 5-6 BCs with plenty of energy for Yamatoing, your opponent will already have cost-effective counters to them without even needing to plan for it.
And it's generally bad to spend 2400/1800 on units you're not going to use for 4-5 minutes.
BCs (and Carriers for that matter) will never be a "core unit". And they're really not suited for endgame as much as they are suited for beefing up midgame armies as support units.
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Thors should maybe counter Colossi better. They're reasonably mobile and they're not useless in a lategame anti-HT army like Vikings are.
Basically, switch roles between Vikings and Thors as anti-air. Vikings should counter light with AE damage, Thors should counter massive/armored with single target damage. Their role as anti-mutalisk has been negated anyway by magic boxing.
This would bring Thors into TvP and Vikings into TvZ.
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Vikings without anti-armor bonus?
Hello Void Rays.
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On October 26 2010 20:15 Thezzy wrote:
Vikings without anti-armor bonus?
Hello Void Rays.
They're already pretty pants against Void Rays. The splash might actually help.
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i don't get why blizzard is so morbidly fixed on to a single unit and try to balance the entire game around that broken unit.. instead of just fixing the broken unit..
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They don't agree it's broken, simple. They're right, too.
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On October 26 2010 16:57 MassAirUnits wrote:
I would like to have Feedback be left alone as well, but your proposal on wasting Banshee/Medivac energy is incredibly stupid. I really hope you are being facetious.
No, I'm not. One stim before a battle and a few sniper rounds can turn the tides in your favour. Would you rather like to get your banshees, ghosts and medivacs one-shot?
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On October 26 2010 19:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:09 mutantmagnet wrote:
Terran are only weaker at the late game because of how poorly everyone (I'm talking about all three races) is playing the game at the late stage even the (vast majority of) pros.
When Terrans get into the late game it usually is a bio ball and if it is TvT a tank viking wall. Terrans haven't figured out how to transition into their final tier unit the Battlecruiser and build up a supporting army of units to assist the BC core.
The BC core? Are you actually being serious? The only race that can viably switch to mass T3 units is Zerg, and that's because they can produce a critical mass of them before fielding them. Battlecruisers are impossible to bring into TvT because the opponent will already have enough vikings to take them down. Same with TvP, blink stalkers absolutely demolish small numbers of BCs, and a critical mass of Mutas will do the same. Unless you manage to hide them until you have 5-6 BCs with plenty of energy for Yamatoing, your opponent will already have cost-effective counters to them without even needing to plan for it. And it's generally bad to spend 2400/1800 on units you're not going to use for 4-5 minutes. BCs (and Carriers for that matter) will never be a "core unit". And they're really not suited for endgame as much as they are suited for beefing up midgame armies as support units.
Yeah I was being serious. The counters to BC in TvZ is definitely not Mutas. Even in BW with their less amazing stats BC curb stomped Mutas. The counters are going to be Corruptors, Infestors and possibly Hydra if the battle takes place in an area they can achieve large surface. The issue is that to support BCs besides the fact they come from Starports is that the units needed to protect them against viable counters here are extremely gas intensive and thus you can't afford to lose such units if used earlier in a fight with a bio ball but many people do lose them.
In TvP Stalkers by themselves are not so hot when it comes to Battlecruisers. The only really useful units are Templars supported by Stalkers and carriers (a unit just as hard for Protoss to transition to). Void Rays aren't as good as they used to be so it's hard to say how they would fair now.
In TvT I would be less inclined to see BCs as being useful due to Viking Wars as you mentioned but Vikings are the only viable threat. Without them Battlecruisers really bring a lot to the table by being able to muscle over siege tank lines, can be healed by multiple SCVs like the Thor and get around terrain hazards with a need for dropships. It might be pissible to create a mix of support units to make BCs viable on this match up but I'm less sure about this one than the others.
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On October 26 2010 16:57 MassAirUnits wrote:
Just want to mention real quick, Vikings are terrible ground units and using them for harass is fairly limited, due to the 3 second transformation time and requirement of being over open ground first.
Vikings on the ground are terrible? Wow sucks for the Stalker since a Viking (ground) beats a Stalker 1on1.
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Vikings are pretty decent units on the ground, they almost match hydralisks, almost
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On October 26 2010 19:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:09 mutantmagnet wrote:
Terran are only weaker at the late game because of how poorly everyone (I'm talking about all three races) is playing the game at the late stage even the (vast majority of) pros.
When Terrans get into the late game it usually is a bio ball and if it is TvT a tank viking wall. Terrans haven't figured out how to transition into their final tier unit the Battlecruiser and build up a supporting army of units to assist the BC core.
The BC core? Are you actually being serious? The only race that can viably switch to mass T3 units is Zerg, and that's because they can produce a critical mass of them before fielding them. Battlecruisers are impossible to bring into TvT because the opponent will already have enough vikings to take them down. Same with TvP, blink stalkers absolutely demolish small numbers of BCs, and a critical mass of Mutas will do the same. Unless you manage to hide them until you have 5-6 BCs with plenty of energy for Yamatoing, your opponent will already have cost-effective counters to them without even needing to plan for it. And it's generally bad to spend 2400/1800 on units you're not going to use for 4-5 minutes. BCs (and Carriers for that matter) will never be a "core unit". And they're really not suited for endgame as much as they are suited for beefing up midgame armies as support units.
While I will agree with your assessment that Vikings are a little ridiculous vs armored, I think he was referring to TvP. I dont agree with the core part but massing Vikings out of reactored Starpots is a little shortsighted. It leaves Terrans vulnerable to a Tech switch. Vikings are easier but BC's are a better long term strategy. For every 2 BC's you instantly erase 1 Collossus from battle and they are good for tanking damage.
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The one thing which concerned me when watching the video of the session was when the blizzard panellist began to discuss stim and immediately dismissed the speed component of it, saying it wasn't important. However, most analyses I've seen indicate that it is the mobility advantage and the power of kiting that makes Terran seem so strong in early-game PvT. I've never heard any specific complaints about the dps bonus of stim on marauders outside of building sniping*, which has already been at least partially addressed.
I'm not too concerned with the specifics of the PvT match-up, because even if some changes are still to come I feel it's fairly close to balanced overall, but I am concerned by the possibility that Blizzard developers may be ignoring important aspects of the game when considering game balance.
*To clarify this, I've seen people whine that "marauders shouldn't have stim", but then you can find players whining about any aspect of the game. I've never seen any serious attempt to justify this complaint for situations other than building sniping.
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In my opinion a matchup where 1 race dominates early game and the other lategame is NOT balanced, its as boping unbalanced as it gets.
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Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game?
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On October 27 2010 01:26 Pepe- wrote:
Am I the only one thinking the weak Stalker is causing the problems early game?
I Just wished Stalkers could attack faster
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EPT
