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On October 25 2010 23:18 Perscienter wrote:
Medivacs are not very fragile. Stalkers cause 14 damage against 150 hp medivacs, while dragoons caused 20 damage against 150 hp dropships. That's a 30% decrease. I feel like Terran's don't get punished enough for playing a drop oriented game. That's what happens when you exchange proven units like scourges and corsairs with 'cool' units.
Dropships did not heal, dragoons did not blink, apples and oranges. 11 stalkers blinking under a fleeing medivac will one shot it, that seems fragile enough as it is. I think the speed nerfs to medivacs were enough to make it possible to punish dropship play, if not going slightly overboard.
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On October 25 2010 20:58 DamageInq wrote:
I can see marauder stim hurting the maruaders more in most situations. I think a lot of that is not caluculating your stims. There's no doubt that it's benificial when taking out an expansion, or in a maruader vs mostly stalker fight.
Ive read through 3 pages already and they talked about TWEAKING marauders and found that during the TWEAKS it was actually LESS beneficial to stim marauders, NOT the way the game is set up CURRENTLY.
Listening is fundemental ;D
And P can FE easily, learn the build orders and use good FF's. People who i see struggle PvT either try to make stargate units and die or dont make enough sentries (if any).
Also im fairly certain that "12 minute" number is completely fucking arbitrary and people are quoting it like its gospel. It was just an example of what they didnt want the game to be.
And to nony im sure you are quite better than me currently but you have to admit the game is completely different. Blizzard has all these fucking maps that have canals and pathways to feed units through and colossus and ht absolutely crush that. I disagree that T can outexpand P lategame as well especially since P can use warped in HT and DT to defend + its pretty hard for terran to expand when theres 4-5 colossus right in your face and tanks + PF does nothing against them with the lance upgrade.
I think maps are a huge part of this entire problem and we need some wide open center luna style maps (imagine playing PvT on maps where you army is constantly splitting down fucking hallways or force you to run into a narrow passage if you want to attack + a more mobile terran army (since we know P in SC2 is a lot more mobile than T in BW))
The one thing I Would advocate is having observers either build faster, cost less, or placed in a different building. If drops are really such an issue its mainly due to people scouting HORRIBLY bad as protoss in this game. I see maybe 1 or 2 observers max. If you have the map just defend like you did in BW and use a pylon ring + observers. Currently while making colossus or immortal making a ton of observers can be hard so I can understand why that would be an issue so maybe move them to nexus with an upgrade at the robotics or something (or some add on after robotics like in BW)
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On October 26 2010 01:04 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 20:58 DamageInq wrote:
I can see marauder stim hurting the maruaders more in most situations. I think a lot of that is not caluculating your stims. There's no doubt that it's benificial when taking out an expansion, or in a maruader vs mostly stalker fight. Ive read through 3 pages already and they talked about TWEAKING marauders and found that during the TWEAKS it was actually LESS beneficial to stim marauders, NOT the way the game is set up CURRENTLY. Listening is fundemental ;D And P can FE easily, learn the build orders and use good FF's. People who i see struggle PvT either try to make stargate units and die or dont make enough sentries (if any). Also im fairly certain that "12 minute" number is completely fucking arbitrary and people are quoting it like its gospel. It was just an example of what they didnt want the game to be.
I think it's supposed to represent when colossi come into play heavily.
That said it's still a misc number since it doesn't account for anything, as you say.
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On October 25 2010 14:55 Sorook wrote:
What I don't understand is why shouldn't P t3 crush T t1. Should toss be able to punish T for building nothing but MMM?
MMM is not a tier 1 unit composition, whereby even usage of the word tier gives rise to ambiguity.
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They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much.
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On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much.
Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/
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On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/
Except apparently it's a fact that Marines are OP according to Blizzard. Obviously that minimal nerf wasn't enough. Be glad they're not putting a 35% DPS nerf on Marines.
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On October 26 2010 01:25 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/ Except apparently it's a fact that Marines are OP according to Blizzard. Obviously that minimal nerf wasn't enough. Be glad they're not putting a 35% DPS nerf on Marines.
Do you find marines op?
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On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/
What I am seeing that may change would may be
A. Stim Duration
B. Stim Cost
C. Stim Effect
D. All of the Above
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On October 26 2010 01:28 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:25 Cloak wrote:On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/ Except apparently it's a fact that Marines are OP according to Blizzard. Obviously that minimal nerf wasn't enough. Be glad they're not putting a 35% DPS nerf on Marines. Do you find marines op?
It has nothing to do with me. I'm not a korean pro. They're extremely OP and are impossible to stop. Maka Prime has already made 11 replays proving their OPedness. That's what a criminal attorney would call decisive evidence.
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haha :D marines are impossible to stop? thats the biggest joke i have ever heard, sure, their DPS is fine, but nerf would make T super UP fo sho
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Feels like everyone's thinking about this wrong.
It's not about P > T in late game, or T < P in early game. It's about numbers. MMM is stronger the smaller the encounter. TvP is about keeping the unit count low in order to have his MMM at peak efficiency.
This is highly dependent on the T being consistently aggressive, but that's how MMM has always worked. Watch Select or qxc's TvP if you want an idea of how this works. The main problem with this is that it means the T must be talented at multitasking with smaller armies, which leaves a hole open balance wise at lower levels of play.
Now, MMM is by no means weak in large encounters. Watch Loner vs. NEXGenius on Metalopolis of their first set, absolutely demolishing an equivalent army of colossus+gateway units with MMM Viking. That game ended with a 5k mineral army for Loner still alive.
Dustin Browder seemed to be hinting at Templar being the imba problem in PvT late game, and that saddens me. Looking into all PvX matchups, templar are nearly non existant at the top level of play. While I agree, they are a very solid late game addition to just about any army, they still don't see any use at all in comparison to the colossus.
PvP=Protoss has no solid counter to the colossus, no corruptor or viking-esque unit. So it is really the only late game unit, ending with a battle of "who has more colossus.
PvT=90% of the GSL PvT's have a fast transition into colossus for a midgame and end with a 2 base colossus all in. Despite P having a 'definite' advantage in the late game, "pro" tosses don't feel like they can safely get there without dying.
PvZ=Nearly the same as PvT, a slightly slower transition into colossus for the midgame is the most common PvZ, usually a slightly delayed double robo. After this, rarely does the composition skew from colossus+immortal+stalker with eventual blink.
Though I think warp in storm is a very powerful tool, a nerf to it would make PvX matchups even more tedious then they are now, reinforcing the "robo is the only tech path" mindset. I personally would be sad to see templar literally not seen at all in the pro scene. At least this GSL there's been 2 games where templar have been used, unlike the last season.
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On October 26 2010 01:25 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/ Except apparently it's a fact that Marines are OP according to Blizzard. Obviously that minimal nerf wasn't enough. Be glad they're not putting a 35% DPS nerf on Marines.
Why not instead of doing something irrational they just tweak the Marine slightly... like making the attack speed SLIGHTLY slower (by .0x amounts, nothing crazy)
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On October 26 2010 01:30 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 01:22 Tabbris wrote:On October 26 2010 01:15 Cloak wrote:
They say they're hesitant to touch core units like the Marine, but they were quick to nerf Zealots because the Silvers couldn't handle proxy 2-Gate. I'd say slap a 5s production nerf on Marines and see what happens. Slows down timing pushes and doesn't affect late game all that much. Hahaha funny thing is they already hit the marine with a production nerf back in beta so stop whining :/ What I am seeing that may change would may be A. Stim Duration B. Stim Cost C. Stim Effect D. All of the Above
They obviously said that they tried toying with stim and it didn't worked
stop complaining
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On October 26 2010 01:57 Werx wrote:
PvT=90% of the GSL PvT's have a fast transition into colossus for a midgame and end with a 2 base colossus all in. Despite P having a 'definite' advantage in the late game, "pro" tosses don't feel like they can safely get there without dying.
PvZ=Nearly the same as PvT, a slightly slower transition into colossus for the midgame is the most common PvZ, usually a slightly delayed double robo. After this, rarely does the composition skew from colossus+immortal+stalker with eventual blink.
The main thing imo is that teching to ht's, there is a rather large window where protoss is sitting around with a whole bunch invested into tech, without being able to field an army with the stuff the tech brings. Robotech let's you get an immortal or two which can absolutely slaughter marauders, and allow for a safe expo in addition. Fast colossus against T is the safer way to play against MMM, the other requiring forcefielding like a champ.
Personally, I prefer SG builds against zerg, I like my map control.
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On October 25 2010 13:03 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 12:58 Chairman Ray wrote:
Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation? Maybe they forgot to attack after stimming them. In all seriousness, this is a bad way to balance the game. Sure, the win ratio is probably around 50/50 right now, but to have a game based where the first portion of the game favors one team while the later portion favors the other is very discouraging in terms of balance.
This is what DoTA does. Just wanted to point that out, since I find DoTA to be an abyssmal game.
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On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard!
Ok, PM me your bnet account and let's play. You play toss and do a 1 or 2 gate FE, and I'll play Terran with a 3-rax opening, and i'll do a timing push 6 minutes in with stim/slow and let's see how you hold up. If a Toss fast expands, they can't have more than 2 gates, which isn't much. Early game the Terran bioball has the most bang for the buck with stimpack. Toss can only come out on top in an early game battle if it's close to a choke where forcefields can push the fight in your favor. But otherwise you are on the backfoot waiting for storm or colo.
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watching the videos on youtube. Looks like they are looking at you psistorm templars..
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On October 25 2010 12:40 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard! Are you kidding? The protoss idea of FE is probably 2gate robo. Terran idea of FE is 1rax techlab. plus my first 3 units (marine + 2 maurauder) still have time to walk to the protoss ramp and force a forcefield or kill at least a stalker + whatever and still walk away fairly intact
Lol if you think Protoss's idea of a FE is 2 gate robo then you don't play enough. Protoss "standard" FE is one gate, core then nexus not 2 gate core robo nexus or w/e.
Also both can FE safely if timings by the other player aren't not spot on. For instance a Protoss can hold off a 3 rax stim build with a one gate FE if terran doesn't time their attack well the same way terran can hold off a 3 gate robo build while doing a 1 rax FE if protoss doesn't hit the timing window they need.
Also a forcefield is small price to pay for a toss when it means getting extra time to get one more unit out to deal with your force or to split your units up and get free kills. I wouldn't try to prove someone wrong with words like "probably" and "whatever".
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On October 26 2010 00:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 00:24 Yaotzin wrote:On October 26 2010 00:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I don't see how the late game SC2 Protoss army is imbalanced PvT since I spent years playing PvT in SC1 where a Terran army of equal supply almost always beat me and a 200/200 2-2 Terran army was nearly unstoppable and many maps made it easy for Terran to get 3 bases and turtle until they had a huge army. Protoss could have 5 bases vs 3 bases and hit 200 supply 3 minutes before Terran and have nowhere to attack and 5k minerals saved up and 25 gateways but the Terran army moves out carefully and kills wave after wave of Protoss units and wins the game. That wasn't imbalanced... that's just how the matchup was. So perhaps the tables are turned now. But if it's a fact that a late game protoss army generally owns a late game terran army of equal supply, that does not have anything to do with balance. Blizz said in that panel that they don't want it like this. They want it pretty even at all stages of the game, rightly imo. Having the matchup be a game of "kill Protoss in <12ish minutes or die" can be balanced but it's not good gameplay. My point is just that one late game army being stronger than another does not automatically mean imbalance. Whatever terms people put the armies in to say that they're imbalanced aren't detailed enough because I can do the same for SC1 PvT and it makes Terran look overpowered when they're not. It's just my guess that people want each race to be able to make the same kinds of decisions and be even the whole time, but that is a bad line of thought because SC is a game of 3 unique races. If both races are making the same kinds of decisions, it's likely that that set of decisions is better for one of the races than it is for the other.
really good point, many people who are stuck in the 2-base vs 2-base scheme don't pay enough attention to this;
it's funny because in all of the match-ups with zerg it's common agreement that zerg has to out-expo to stay "even" while the opponent has to try to prevent zerg from going crazy macro-mode;
in TvP few terrans actually try to take the map before protoss can get a considerable number of colossi out....many are content with being aggressive from 2-bases; maybe that's not how it will turn out to be the best way to go in the long run, who knows this right now?
On October 26 2010 00:46 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 23:03 sleepingdog wrote:
cloud was down to 11 scvs at one point....which equals death in a sane rts-world; nevertheless he managed to come back thanks to massive mule-calldown and only lost because his opponent just continued to outplay him So if you think of it that each OC is adding 4 to the SCV count, and each scan is costing 300 minerals rather than energy, you get a much clearer picture. Since it's standard to make your main and natural OCs and only think about Planetaries at your 3rd and later bases, it's likely that using this rubrick, Cloud was only down 3 workers in the afformentioned game.
go and watch the game then
it was like 34 vs 11 workers, mass-mule-calldown ment nearly equal mineral-income; maybe you like, maybe the majority of TL likes it...well, I don't like it because I've been playing RTS-games for 10 years now and one player losing 2/3 of economy always meant death; and I always got the feeling: yeah, well deserved; sorry if you disagree, it's just how I feel
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EPT
