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On October 26 2010 02:17 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard! Ok, PM me your bnet account and let's play. You play toss and do a 1 or 2 gate FE, and I'll play Terran with a 3-rax opening, and i'll do a timing push 6 minutes in with stim/slow and let's see how you hold up. If a Toss fast expands, they can't have more than 2 gates, which isn't much. Early game the Terran bioball has the most bang for the buck with stimpack. Toss can only come out on top in an early game battle if it's close to a choke where forcefields can push the fight in your favor. But otherwise you are on the backfoot waiting for storm or colo.
Your example doesn't hold any ground at all because all you're going to "prove" is that a build that is designed to put on early pressure against a more greedy build will win, which everyone knows. That's like me saying "Okay you play as terran and do a 1 rax FE and I'll play as toss and do a 4 warp gate timing push at 6 miuntes and we'll see if you can last." Of course you won't because 4 gate is a good build to do against a terran who FE's off of one rax the same way a 3 rax bio timing push is a good build to do against a toss who 1 gate FE's.
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On October 25 2010 22:44 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 22:12 Agh wrote:
Just because a strategy is extremely difficult or impossible for 99% of T players to execute doesn't automatically make it okay if there is no clear appropriate answer to it. A major thing to note is that every single Toss he played against knew exactly what he was doing/going to do, and everyone was even watching the games. Given the nature of sc2 and the fact that no generic/'safe' build exists due to the heavy influence of 'counter'-type play it just seems out of place.
#1Are you saying Select's style has no counter, though? Genius demolished him in 2 games, abusing his late vikings with nice colossus timing attacks, and of course his Korean forcefields ^_^. Given Select's style is bloody hard to do I think it's fair to require sexy FFs and nice timing to beat it. Show nested quote +
Just my opinion but I think it's pretty obvious the problem lies with mainly Marauder Medivac drops. Nothing near remotely even food/cost can stop it once it is inside of your base. (note I'm cearly omitting extreme late game options). You have to have significantly more resources worth of units or upgrades to allow you to clean up the drop, and at multiple locations accompanied by a large main force, you are simply going to either be out of position resulting in you losing far more worth of units and/or tech and unit producing structures.
#2How often do the top Protoss players actually lose for that reason though? It seems like most of the losses are due to timing attacks while the Protoss tries to transition to either colossus or templar (and of course we have to transition to them). It feels like the big problem is that window where T has a stimball which basic gateway alone simply cannot handle, but before the big guns are out. Maybe it's a regional thing, NA/EU seems to either have better dropping Terrans or the Protoss are worse at defending them. Show nested quote +
I don't have any direct suggestions atm of what should be done because simply put I don't have time to analyze every minuscule ramification each change could inflict, but personally I believe everything roots itself with the MULE and how late game the Economic gain from 3 orbital commands is unable to be outmatched in terms of economy by anything that Protoss can do. Actual late game unit disparity has its ups and downs for each side.
#3?? You're saying Terran has a lategame advantage?
1.
What I was implying is that Selects style does not have a direct 'counter' in the sense that you are unable to do something to completely null and void it, despite knowing exactly what is going to happen. You just simply have to outplay and properly anticipate/position. Note that I'm perfectly fine with this aspect, however sc2 doesn't seem to have the niche Broodwar has where each race has a more or less set standard that can keep you in the game without some form of high risk.
2.
Quite more than you would think actually. Basically until you have the observer out you are in the in the dark, and that certain specific builds can take you out of the game, which I think should be a part of the game, but as of now it seems very finicky.
3.
No, which is why I included the unit disparities in the last sentence. Once Protoss is able to fund High Templars, Protoss definitely has a unit advantage.
However as Tyler mentioned already in this thread that Terran is able to combat that by a larger army force brought on by mules.
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On October 26 2010 01:04 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 20:58 DamageInq wrote:
I can see marauder stim hurting the maruaders more in most situations. I think a lot of that is not caluculating your stims. There's no doubt that it's benificial when taking out an expansion, or in a maruader vs mostly stalker fight. Ive read through 3 pages already and they talked about TWEAKING marauders and found that during the TWEAKS it was actually LESS beneficial to stim marauders, NOT the way the game is set up CURRENTLY. Listening is fundemental ;D
I can see why this would be true since Marne DPS is higher per cost and the Marauders need to tank for the Marines. However they really need to quantify this more. I think it would be highly dependent on the matchup with Marauders doing double damage vs armored. For example stimming and focus firing Colossus would definitely seem to be worth it. I would also be curious to know if this was equally true when using Medivacs.
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On October 25 2010 23:53 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 23:45 Perscienter wrote:
Especially the absence of splash damage and the low dps against non-armored units like the medivac. Splash would be useless in SC2. Having them do +armored damage would make them a worse unit. They are a better, more viable unit that the corsair. They are viable in all matchups. They are anti-air that can actually harass/attack ground. The corsair is pretty much never used except against Zerg. How you can conclude that the corsair is better is beyond me.
Didn't say that. Phoenix is rarely used against Protoss, slightly more against Zerg. It just can't fight a high number of light air units. The unit has a different role.
Sad, how everyone seems to demand damage nerfs for the marine. If all the overpowered stuff like 3 stages void rays with bombastic dps against armored, rax first openings, reapers with early speed, burrow on tier one, lesser research and build times for carrier and psionic storm etc. wouldn't have been removed, maybe noone would cry. Do you really want to turn this wheel further?
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On October 26 2010 02:43 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 00:46 Ketara wrote:On October 25 2010 23:03 sleepingdog wrote:
cloud was down to 11 scvs at one point....which equals death in a sane rts-world; nevertheless he managed to come back thanks to massive mule-calldown and only lost because his opponent just continued to outplay him So if you think of it that each OC is adding 4 to the SCV count, and each scan is costing 300 minerals rather than energy, you get a much clearer picture. Since it's standard to make your main and natural OCs and only think about Planetaries at your 3rd and later bases, it's likely that using this rubrick, Cloud was only down 3 workers in the afformentioned game. go and watch the game then it was like 34 vs 11 workers, mass-mule-calldown ment nearly equal mineral-income; maybe you like, maybe the majority of TL likes it...well, I don't like it because I've been playing RTS-games for 10 years now and one player losing 2/3 of economy always meant death; and I always got the feeling: yeah, well deserved; sorry if you disagree, it's just how I feel
Okay, having watched the game, and accounting for each OC being roughly = to 4 workers. Only talking about worker counts here. If it's +/- 1 worker I'll call it even.
Spoilering my analysis since it's long as crap and most people don't want to read it.
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss pulls ahead at about 3 minutes. 17/15
Terran gets OC at 3:45 and immediately Mules, getting to 19/17
At 5:30 Terran is ahead 24/20
Around 7:00 it's even again, 23/23
Around 10:00 Protoss pulls ahead, 31/28. However, at this point they're both on 1 base and Protoss is oversaturated, so likely Terran is still ahead here since Mules allow him to oversaturate some degree.
Terran gets a second OC, and remains ahead until 15:00 when Protoss's natural finishes.
At 15:00 Protoss is ahead by 2, 35/37
At 17:00 Terran moves OC to the natural and is ahead again, 35/32
At 19:00 Terran is ahead 38/32
At 20:30 a big attack throws Terran down to 19/35. However, by now the entire Protoss main is mined out, making Protoss oversaturated again. Effective worker count should be about 19/30.
24:00 Terran barely holds off the next attack. Protoss is now up 21/37, but still mining only one base, so effectively only 21/30.
29:30 Terrans main has just now mined out. Protoss is up still at 28/38, but still on one mining base, so effectively 28/30. Terran has basically caught up.
32:30 Terran is even again, 30/30. Note Terran has denied Protoss's 3rd twice.
33:30 Protoss's 3rd finally goes up.
35:30 Protoss wins game.
In conclusion, based on the 1 OC = 4 worker rubrick, which is very applicable for this game since Cloud almost never scanned, Terran was ahead on workers very nearly the whole game up until the 20 minute mark.
At that point a big attack made him 10 (only 10) workers behind, and he started to lose the game. His armies were not big enough.
Protoss got pretty far ahead in workers at this time, but since he was only mining off 1 base to the Terrans 2, his higher worker count wasn't helping efficiently.
By 32:30 Terran has actually caught back up to even in the worker count by denying Protoss's 3rd twice, but the damage has been done, and he is eventually overrun.
Pretty weird game, but the fact is Mules allow Terrans to be ahead on income with similar base numbers, because they can saturate more efficiently, and neither player took a goddamn 3rd base for 33 minutes of a 35 minute game.
I really don't see the problem, other than it being a weird game, overall.
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Ignoring the vitriol and silliness dominating this thread, up to this point:
Damn this makes me think Blizzard is smart. I always figured they deserved more credit than they got, but I wasn't sure they were awesome enough to want the game balanced at every stage of it-- I even, almost, thought that was too ideal to hope for and was pretty happy with PvT.
Damn I'm excited for future patches and expansions really make this an art.
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I love people trying to prove blizzard wrong, when they have a shit loads off tool to come to there conclusions.
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I would like to hear the people who are saying this is a bad way to balance the game come up with a better way to balance it.
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On October 26 2010 04:22 Maaku wrote:
I love people trying to prove blizzard wrong, when they have a shit loads of tools to come to their conclusions.
I love discussion too : )
It's interesting to hear what different people are experiencing with regards to the PvT matchup in SC2 (I play toss). The only time conversation is counter-productive is when players have 'jumped to conclusions', or even reached conclusions at all, when it is quite obvious an individual player, or forum group, cannot reach the educated conclusion on balance - there are just too many factors that play a part!
I think that this is what Blizzard is trying to reassure the player base of, namely that there are a myriad of things considered when making balance changes, and these include all of the levels of play and multiple play modes. This attempt will almost always go in one ear and out the other of a player because most/all players are focused on one mode of play, don't have direct access/experience with all of the information, or have a bias based on what they do play or have experienced. All that an individual player can do is contribute to the discussion with their own findings, we are not equipped to conclude.
As a Protoss player I can offer my own experience/insight on the matter, but I don't presume it is the same as what everyone else feels or arrives at:
I find Terran is hard to break early and this is a function of their race, units, buildings, etc. Therefore, it isn't surprising that P is seen as 'underpowered' in the early game 'because' the P's ability to deal damage to T's vital functions, and hence competitive options, are all hindered by a wall or group of defensive units. I think it is kind of ironic that the T's ability to defend in turn gives them the green-light to be agressive in the early game, but it isn't surpirsing. The Terran has 'many' harrassment options earlier on which can potentially soften the P player up enough so that an early engagement is preferable/sucessful for the T.
Altogether though, I find that an early push from a T is balanced with an early defense by a P if the P has not been weakened greatly by one of the many harassment options available to T, has similar micro capabilities, and makes use of their early upgrades/casts. The imbalance perceived is mostly due to the fact that P can only break-even on the first engagement and almost always in a defensive role (P can't successfuly push until they get Collosi or something else) and that the micromanagement involved with stim-kiting is 'easier' than managing forcefields together with making the right map/terrain decisions that are necessary to defend sucessfuly.
Early game vs. T ghosts are the thing I have the most trouble with, granted it isn't that easy to match them with Templar, and defending against EMP (cloaked too) without Feedback is what I consider to be another slightly more difficult micro function when compared to targeting EMP at units that will likely group at some point or other.
The Fast Expand dynamic is what really throws a wrench in my perception of this matchup. In this thread you will see posts indicating that P can safely FE and in the next post that they can't. I think the reason for the difference in opinions is map distances, as well as attempts at FE'ing at different skill levels. FE'ing, and it's success or failure on equal skill levels (my opinion), comes down to map/scout based decision making. I honestly don't think you should go into any matchup with the strategy to FE no matter what. I think you have to consider the map positions, your opponent, and what they seem to be doing to start out with. I think a wrong decision in this respect should be punishable, because having a second base early is incredibly strong especially with added Chronoboost/Mule-Scan.
As far as end game balance goes I think LiquidTyler and Agh raise the most interesting points, namely that P and T play a lot differently and there is a culmination of this in the late game when Mules pile up and Planetary Fortresses limit attack options. Honestly, I think late game P v T is pretty balanced. I do think P gets a LOT more late game options, but this is in contrast to T's early game harass options. I also haven't seen much 'even-army' late game high level P v T, probably because T settles a lot of it early on, or the T's harass early-mid is enough to cripple the P or the T, the latter if the T is unsuccessful and wasted too many resources in attempted harass. I guess a lot of this matchup comes down to the the early T harass and how well it is or isn't defended.
It's an interesting discussion. And I'm sure there could be tweaks to abilities, their costs, and timings that could imrpove or ruin the matchup - the game is still in its infancy after all ^^ I'm not sure what to address, but I think the center of things, or what changes would have the greatest impact, are those made to the Marauder or the Stalker.
- dut
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Things are definitely getting better but I'm not getting the warm fuzzies some people seem to be getting now. They waited too long to do something about Reapers and then when they do they practically remove them from the game. It should have been obvious that when they changed Roaches to 2 supply they would need some form of compensation. The Void Ray change doesn't seem particularly well done. I absolutely agree VR's were a problem in team games but it seems questionable if Protoss will have an adequate counter to BC's now. It would be more reassuring if Blizzard would start thinking in terms of groups of units instead of justifying single unit nerfs or buffs.
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Lol, I wonder if Blizz is stimming marauders in their base and racing them or something 
I'm really not sure how they can say marauder stim is harmful...
Rest was quite interesting though. When they say Terran is stronger for 1st 12 minutes, do they mean that Terran should be winning in that time, or somehow setting Protoss back so the later game is more balanced?
Wish they'd been a little more specific 
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On October 26 2010 09:15 Subversion wrote:Lol, I wonder if Blizz is stimming marauders in their base and racing them or something I'm really not sure how they can say marauder stim is harmful... Rest was quite interesting though. When they say Terran is stronger for 1st 12 minutes, do they mean that Terran should be winning in that time, or somehow setting Protoss back so the later game is more balanced? Wish they'd been a little more specific
I'm not sure about the timing but when Protoss is able to get both Colossus and HT's things start turn in their favor. However it's not apparent if Ravens and Ghosts are being fully utilized by Terrans yet. It will be interesting to see if we get some new builds in the later stages of GSL 2 now that the patch has been out for a while.
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On October 25 2010 15:02 Tabbris wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 14:55 Sorook wrote:
What I don't understand is why shouldn't P t3 crush T t1. Should toss be able to punish T for building nothing but MMM? What the fuck are T supoosed to build? Battlecruisers? WE literally have nothing else
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. Too many people keep saying that all T builds is MMM, but so too could you say P only builds Z/S/S (S = stalkers and sentries), these are staple units first of all. Secondly, if like some people were raging about, stim and/concussives were either removed are majorly nerfed there is very little for the T to build otherwise. BCs are only ok as damage sinks but are pretty functionally useless, Air in general is shut down by Obs, HTs, and of course Phoenix. The other mech left are Thors and tanks, granted thors can survive a bit now, they're are still probably the least useful of between Ultras and Collo (this is of course a bad comparison since Thors are the easiest/fastest to tech too, but you get the idea).
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I caught this part of the panel and didn't they say stimmed marauders were bad only in certain situations (probably small numbers). I may be wrong but does anyone have a video of this discussion? Also i noticed in their tests they didn't kite any units in the unit testing maps but maybe that was only to show how they do it.
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On October 25 2010 22:24 Bagi wrote:
Concerning terran (which is what I have the most experience of), I think we are significantly weaker lategame against both protoss and zerg.
Terran are only weaker at the late game because of how poorly everyone (I'm talking about all three races) is playing the game at the late stage even the (vast majority of) pros.
When Terrans get into the late game it usually is a bio ball and if it is TvT a tank viking wall. Terrans haven't figured out how to transition into their final tier unit the Battlecruiser and build up a supporting army of units to assist the BC core.
Of course it is pretty damn difficult to make such a transition because BCs require Starports and when people utilize starports they spend a lot of gas already on Banshees (and then transition down to tanks) or medivacs.
This problem with building allocation also plagues the protoss but what they can achieve with two robos supporting Warp Gates is far more powerful than what Terrans can do with two factories or two starports supporting a bunch of barracks.
Zerg don't have this endgame issue of building allocation but their high tech units share a critical weakness of being only able to engage ground.
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Agreed with what most people are saying. Do not touch the HT's, they are already hard enough to make work right and HT's are pretty much only really strong against MMM, which is much quicker to get. So why Nerf a counter to an early game tactic.
As I said before this is a problem with terran players actually getting out of the mass bioball mindset when they see collosus and HT's. MMM heavy play should not be successful as an all game tactic because it is so strong early game, it is quick to get and is relatively versatile and strong.
As in PVP people are starting to work on phoenix immortal builds to counter mass collosus, terran players need to start trying some builds that move away with just getting MORE MMM with a side of ghost and vikings.
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You also forgot they they use pro feedback. The Void Ray change was based on MakaPrimes information about a zealot sentry voidray build that was overpowered. But yeah, the real turning point is when the Protoss can safely warp in Templar with the amulet to stop harass and weaken pushes and the like. Marines are the key support/damage dealing unit and storm rips them apart.
And of course this was backed up by the finals; the games Loner won, he did so with an early push. Once it got to three bases, he lost.
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On October 26 2010 13:13 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Agreed with what most people are saying. Do not touch the HT's, they are already hard enough to make work right and HT's are pretty much only really strong against MMM, which is much quicker to get. So why Nerf a counter to an early game tactic.
As I said before this is a problem with terran players actually getting out of the mass bioball mindset when they see collosus and HT's. MMM heavy play should not be successful as an all game tactic because it is so strong early game, it is quick to get and is relatively versatile and strong.
As in PVP people are starting to work on phoenix immortal builds to counter mass collosus, terran players need to start trying some builds that move away with just getting MORE MMM with a side of ghost and vikings.
The issue is you CAN'T leave MMM, at least not entirely. Ghosts generally get shut down by colossus based strategies, in the early game at least (Huk's words not mine), and seem situational at best. I'd love to say "Well transition into mech like BW," but it's not feasible, especially with the tank nerf now, and the ones throughout the beta. That and Thors are awful against Protoss and hellions, while nice, have nowhere near the reliability they should have. So yeah, it's more of a game design problem where Terran plays like a less mobile Protoss.
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I think a few posters have made very adequate points concerning PvT in the late game.
Normally (even in pro replays I see and GSL and BlizzCon and the such) once a Terran sees Collosus, the number of vikings is way overcompensated so that once the protoss has switched to HT's, the terran has all this supply that is taken by units that are now useless (even on feet form). Say there is 6 vikings, that is 12 supply that is semi-useless in 200/200 battles. That could have been 6 marauders or even better, ghosts as we all know which help IMMENSELY versus HT's. Even when they don't EMP the High templar, EMPing the main force of stalkers/sentries/zealots is almost equivalent to a instant psi storm with larger range that can't be dodged.
So maybe it is just me, but I think that the problem late game is that Terran just has a few useless units laying around that contribute little, if any, to 200/200 battles.
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On October 26 2010 13:42 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:
I think a few posters have made very adequate points concerning PvT in the late game.
Normally (even in pro replays I see and GSL and BlizzCon and the such) once a Terran sees Collosus, the number of vikings is way overcompensated so that once the protoss has switched to HT's, the terran has all this supply that is taken by units that are now useless (even on feet form). Say there is 6 vikings, that is 12 supply that is semi-useless in 200/200 battles. That could have been 6 marauders or even better, ghosts as we all know which help IMMENSELY versus HT's. Even when they don't EMP the High templar, EMPing the main force of stalkers/sentries/zealots is almost equivalent to a instant psi storm with larger range that can't be dodged.
So maybe it is just me, but I think that the problem late game is that Terran just has a few useless units laying around that contribute little, if any, to 200/200 battles.
Yeah, that's a large factor of it, but it just feels like there is no late game army that works for Terran. In one of Loner's games he had banshees and vikings and ghosts and marine marauder against a Templar colossus gateway unit army and there was still very little he could do.
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EPT
