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Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research.
Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/VHlHB.jpg)
Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE!
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wmN8Z.jpg)
Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Jf8VC.jpg)
[Explanation, you might skip]
Here is how I made it using simple Paint.
I made another screenshot this time on scrap station:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iCMtz.jpg)
Remade it into this:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/AR02X.jpg)
Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WHkWO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UI8wt.jpg)
Result again, look how huge this is:
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The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong.
So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment.
My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it.
Now why that way?
It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's).
It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's).
It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win.
I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback.
So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army.
Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly.
TLDR
Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game.
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I really think it's fine. You would have rocked if you made colossus or carriers.
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fairly good assessment and suggestion and as a toss player i agree. however as protoss is still viewed as slightly more powerful than terran i don't see this change coming any time soon.
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Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking.
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I agree with OP. It'd make things fair and result in great, engaging, crowd-pleasing micro battles. Right now EMP is just an extremely good blunt instrument with no real counter.
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That was at the stage when I was just starting getting Colossi. A combo of Storm and Colossi do insanely good. But it doesnt really matter. There is no point why Ghost could reach HT from higher range like that.
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To fully consider the balance problem between those two units, replace EMP by storm and it will be fine..
Ok, I will rephrase it, that's some unnecessary and stupid changes. Like most QQ posts on Battle.net forum, you are just considering two units (or worse, you are considering only some of the spell of those two units) instead of considering the whole matchup.
Look at high level games, storm rapes MMM play, and MMMG too once you reach a critical mass of HTs. Then you whole point of "oh noes ghosts is auto win for terran" is null and if changes are needed, that's maybe storm nerf or ghost buff.
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why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
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On October 23 2010 03:54 brain_ wrote:
I agree with OP. It'd make things fair and result in great, engaging, crowd-pleasing micro battles. Right now EMP is just an extremely good blunt instrument with no real counter.
I am pretty sure the EMP is a counter made to stop storms and other really strong spells. There is no need for change in the range.
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EMP has range 10, feedback has range 9, dunno why they have these respective ranges, but those are the stats.
The problem with the EMP vs Storm dynamic is that colossus tech is too good and resistant to EMP effects that this discrepancy isn't addressed.
---Ultimately the way to beat EMP with storms is good positioning and protection of your templars (spread out, scouting observers, etc.)
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Don't bunch up your templars like a retard and don't keep them in the front of your army and you're fine.
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Today I was winning a battle. Suddenly the protoss warped in 5 HT's and stormed my army away. Then, when my units were making, the toss reïnforced so fast (thanks to warpgates) and he beated me. By the time my new units were out, the toss had warped in a big army and he was in my base. I had 10 raxes making units.
So:
- you can warp the unit in and storm immeadiately.
- you can actually KILL units with it.
How can people say that there is no counter to emp?
I see a lot of protosses only viewing their side, but not the side of the terran. Storm is amazing against bio and it's really hard to dodge it and emp a well spreaded army.
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
I assume because they have less practice using them (colossus tech is more common) and thus have difficulty stimkiting, controlling medivacs, and also landing EMPs.
If you're asking why they don't just use them in general for the EMP damage I have no idea.
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory.
In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more.
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@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
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EMP is fine, spreading out HTs and the fact they can warp in storm ready is really annoying. Not having having to research emp is not.
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Psi storm completely wrecks the bioball which is why overall a HT is a much more efficient unit than the ghost. So if you misclick or mistime your EMP might hit nothing while feedback will hit every time given you click on the unit. Given the tech and macro of the protoss he can easily have Colossi out which can wreck any ghost pretty easily even with that range.
ALSO, Protoss have the option to shove all the HT into a warp prism and be free from any EMPs and snipes completely. Although much more micro intensive, it pays off if T gets impatient and wastes his EMPs on the rest of your army, your HT will be free to storm/feedback.
I don't think the current state of the game, that feedback vs EMP is an issue, cause there are so many more variables to consider.
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Why don't you complain that phoenix don't hit ground and have 9 range too, hell why not have immortals do splash damage?
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
How is this even relevant? I use ghosts all the time. I see them used plenty. If there is any reason why they don't use them much it's because there's no need to when toss go collosus all the time.
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United States2183 Posts
EMP is fine, if you have even 2 army groups of templar/zeal EMP becomes a joke, especially if your HT have been out for a while getting 200/200 energy.
Plz don't act like we don't have to pay 50/150 for a single storm WITH the upgrade.
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EPT
