i dont know why people keep bringing up that it takes 150gas to warp in high temps. ghosts also require 150gas as well as 150 minerals for your 50min150gas. granted ghosts can be teched much faster, but it also causes terran to not get early medivacs for drop play which i believe is the more general threat to toss in the early-mid game scenerio. toss isnt the only race that requires massive amounts of vespine to be effective

Terranist

United States2496 Posts

October 23 2010 03:45 GMT

#84

getting emp'd sucks, but getting stormed sucks a whole lot more. at least emp has one good thing going for it.

VanGarde

Sweden755 Posts

October 23 2010 03:49 GMT

#85

On October 23 2010 11:40 Zealot Lord wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not sure what the point of listing the units templar can feedback on is for when ghost's EMP affects every single protoss unit lol =p

But I don't think protoss/terran players will ever agree on the ghost balance debate haha.

Yeah, so does storm. You are missing an important distinction. You need to make a difference between emp to drain energy and emp to take away shields. Because it is essentially two abilities in one whereas the templar has it separated into storm and feedback.

Protoss has three units that can be drained of energy by emp (not counting the mothership) and then every unit can take "damage" from the emp. Terran has 5 units (80% of the air units) which can be feedbacked and drained of emp+dealt damage and then every unit can take damage from storm.

Keldaur

Spain55 Posts

October 23 2010 03:59 GMT

#86

And also people forget storm and feedback actually KILL units, while EMP just reduce shields and you can do it just one time, no matter how many EMPs you throw, you won't kill them (not bad, of course, it's awesome against toss, but they are different).

Also, they are different races, with different units, mechs and synergys between the units. Asking for the same is plainly retarded.

ibreakurface

United States664 Posts

October 23 2010 04:00 GMT

#87

I think everyone has forgotten EMP is supposed to counter HT's. Complaining about emp vs storms is like complaining about how storm rapes bio.

Oddysay

Canada597 Posts

October 23 2010 04:09 GMT

#88

On October 23 2010 13:00 ibreakurface wrote:
I think everyone has forgotten EMP is supposed to counter HT's. Complaining about emp vs storms is like complaining about how storm rapes bio.

some people are just bad at the game and want the easy mode for everything....

look how he take screen shot of command center SCANS too ... the scans got no reason to be here... other that make people think the way he want .

for reply to the op : okay we trade the fix but emp should AUTO kill templar... not just remove energy but kill them.. templar kill my ghost when they storm ... you want everything fair and balanced right?

LuciferSC

Canada535 Posts

October 23 2010 04:17 GMT

#89

EMP is fine as is.

Sorry but OP has wrong arguments; keep in mind that ghost don't do insane amount of dmg and HT's psionic storm has radius too.

Also that u can't miss with feedback, but with emps, u surely can miss with good P micro.

Baarn

United States2702 Posts

October 23 2010 04:22 GMT

#90

Why does there need to be a parity between the units unless you are planning on going toe to toe? It's all about positioning and if you happen to get your templar emp cause you move them in front of other units then that's more your fault then the games, no?

MythicalMage

1360 Posts

October 23 2010 04:35 GMT

#91

You can't REALLY compare the abilities. Feedback is cheaper from a higher tier unit and does damage based on Mana. EMP does consistent damage to shields and takes away all mana in an AoE for a high cost on a somewhat lower tier caster. (Depending how you define the tiers, of course.) Feedback, to me, is the more versatile/useful ability.
EDIT: Also of note: While Templar are higher in the tree, ghosts cost more (by one hundred minerals). Templar are also warped in faster.

Bluetea

United States185 Posts

October 23 2010 04:59 GMT

#92

What I really hate is that the Terran can click basically anywhere on the Protoss army and EMP a good majority of the units because EMP is AoE. Feedback on the other hand is SO much harder to pull off versus a ghost. 1) It's hard to even find the ghost in a ball of infantry and 2) you have to actually click on the ghost. It's kind of unfair since they are very similar spells.

Resistentialism

Canada688 Posts

October 23 2010 06:43 GMT

#93

On October 23 2010 13:17 LuciferSC wrote:
EMP is fine as is.

Sorry but OP has wrong arguments; keep in mind that ghost don't do insane amount of dmg and HT's psionic storm has radius too.

Also that u can't miss with feedback, but with emps, u surely can miss with good P micro.

It's very easy to miss ghosts with the feedback. Sure, it won't waste the 50 energy when you misclick on a marine or something, but by that point the protoss has probably already been EMP'd.

It's pretty easy for a terran to paint an EMP in the general direction of the slow-moving, floating gold guy with bright blue after-images compared to the protoss trying to click directly on the one marine in the grey jumpsuit and goggles.

ensis

Germany340 Posts

October 23 2010 07:02 GMT

#94

not even progamers can avoid their templars getting emped. thats fact. and every 1200 diamond player, that says, split your templars just doesnt know how hard/ impossible it is.

if emp had lower range, templars would be the ideal counter to bio. just look at a terran, that doesnt have ghost micro. he will just get demolished. this would be bad, if the terrans didnt get an option buffed like.....oh yeah, THORS. would make the game more exciting, if the terran needed to switch to heavy mech. i even have a replay somewhere in my folder, that shows the perfect emp. and by perfect i really mean perfect like, scanned and the emp was placed so brilliantly, that the player hasnt even seen the ghost. btw, this game was between korean progamers. he even spread out his templar, but the terran just did this to everyone. and marauders dont die to one storm, so even warping in a couple templars, the terran can easily dodge, retreat and reapeat.

feedbacking works, if both armies are running towards each other. because the feedback can just be casted on a ghost (lets assume hes not under a medivac/banshee/thor/viking) and triggers the instant the ghost is in range. emp needs some more micro to place and if both casters are moving, the range-difference is almost nullified, because emp will not be casted instantly and the units will come closer during this period
though ghost-micro shouldnt be that big of a deal, given smartcast and scan.

fact is, that emp has a optimum range of 12 and feedback of 9. so every protoss using templars, just hopes, that his terran opponent has not enough micro. you cannot deny, that if a terran has perfect ghost micro, he will easily crush any protoss using templars.

i experimented also with warpprisms, but they are just too slow unloading, moving and transforming. and they are weak as hell.

i also find it pretty unfair, that protoss, needs to flank, use multiple casters, warpprisms and spread out their units, to win vs a one-ball terran.

i dont say, the matchup is imbalanced, because of that, (still is, but for other reasons) just that collossi is a way better choice than templars, though i still want to see a terran, that uses viking/raven ambushes, to decimate the collossus count.

ZomgTossRush

United States1041 Posts

October 23 2010 07:09 GMT

#95

On October 23 2010 16:02 ensis wrote:
not even progamers can avoid their templars getting emped. thats fact. and every 1200 diamond player, that says, split your templars just doesnt know how hard/ impossible it is.

i experimented also with warpprisms, but they are just too slow unloading, moving and transforming. and they are weak as hell.

i also find it pretty unfair, that protoss, needs to flank, use multiple casters, warpprisms and spread out their units, to win vs a one-ball terran.

1. how hard is it to split your army? Remember bw with 12 units per control group?

2. Describe experimenting. I havn't used them myself, but i can't imagine them being less effective than bw shuttles. Weak as hell? What does that mean?

3. Unfair? Try playing zerg when you have to flank. OR sc1 PvT. Or just being a good sc2 player.

blitzkrieger

United States512 Posts

October 23 2010 07:21 GMT

#96

Their are ways to slightly decrease the effectiveness of EMP but overall EMP is too strong and needs a nerf. I think the main reason it hasn't been nerfed is Terran has been OP for so long they haven't needed it. With the current drop nerfs this might be the time.

Another factor is Protoss goes Colossus for a reason, HT just isn't effective. Not only do you NEED robo just b/c of cloaked banshees but also if a PF goes up on the third zealot/Templar can't take it down. Gateway is just garbage versus marauder and HT take too long to get storm. Stargate lol.

Robo gives detection, scouting, a strong unit versus marauders to transition to colossus (if necessary) and allows you to adapt easier or transition to the other tech trees.

Templar gives... storm at a late point with a huge gas req, DT's require a seperate building.

I haven't seen a single game in the GSL or anything I have watched where PvT Toss opens with templar. If you can show me a top Protoss who uses Templar I'd love to see it as I don't like forced robo play. The few times I see storm is when banshee/rine force it.

Jibba

United States22883 Posts

October 23 2010 07:24 GMT

#97

Sorry, I know you put a lot of work into it but we don't allow balance threads in the SC2 forums. We want threads to reflect the way the game is, not the way each person wants it to be.