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Some people like the ghost vs templar duels that can happen in TvP but I personally do not.
It basically turns into an arms race between the two units: Storm is ungodly powerful so terran needs to be able to counter templar, and EMP is introduced. But EMP is also retardedly powerful, so templar need to counter that (enter: feedback instead of that phase shift nonsense). Feedback is strong too, so what counters it? Snipe? Potentially, but also EMP.
This turns it into a fight where whoever gets the first hit has a huge advantage. If T can spam EMP on Ps army, they will not only eliminate up to 100 shield pts, but they will also eliminate FF, guardian shield, storm and feedback from the fight.
The P counter is spreading + warping in new HTs
If P can get good feedbacks, they can stop their army from instantly melting and pen the T in with FF, then vaporize them with storm.
Terran really has no good counter to this since good FFs are brutally effective... except EMP or templar sniping (cloak+snipe ability in advance, banshees, hellions etc)
Its quite a sad state of the game IMO because while it does reward skill (which im a fan of) it doesnt really leave any other good options for either player.
They need to spread some of these abilities out to other units, or change how they work in order to make them a little more viable instead of TvP ending in ghost/HT fights: its logical conclusion.
They could also redesign abilities (i know it isnt beta anymore, *sigh*) so that things arent so 1-sided (for either race) once those abilities go down.
The existence of the DA, while not used often, at least ensured that you didnt have a caster who could not only rape large quantities of low HP units, but also SMITE all enemy casters, making them useless and possibly killing them. Similarly, the expensive sci vessel with its upgrades ensured that the protoss-negating EMP wasnt thrown around so easily.
I hope this doesnt appear biased (im toss). I really like that there are still abilities in the game (EMP, storm, feedback) that make people go: "whoa, that kinda OP." But there should also be counters to that on other units so its not all one-sided once they go down.
Countering Unit A with Unit B that also gets countered by Unit A just seems like bad design imo, even if it is sometimes fun to watch.
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On October 23 2010 04:08 Friend23 wrote:
@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
I don't agree.
EMP is damage-dealing, but it's priority purpose is absolutely damage prevention by eliminating storms. EMPs unchecked on your army will cut into its health dramatically - storms unchecked will completely wipe T out, and is the single most powerful tool P has in the lategame. The fact that HTs have a tool to counter the only unit that counters them is rather surprising by itself.
Your comparison would make sense if HTs and Ghosts existed to counter each other, and were seen in equal numbers to do so - but this is not the case. P will always have far more HTs than T has ghosts, because the ghosts are there to handle the HTs while the HTs are there to punish the entire T army. This implies T cannot afford to invest as much into Ghosts as P can invest in HTs, and thus it is reasonable that EMP outdoes FB as Ghosts need to be more effective in removing the larger number of HTs than HTs are at one-shotting their only counter unit. Making Ghosts have a 1-to-1 counter in the form of snipe is not reasonable because to have that many Ghosts severely reduces the marauder/medivac count for Terran.
At the end of it all, regardless of EMP, you still have a workable unit in the form of the Archon, and if a single HT is not emped, T will be punished.
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spread your units, on the first picture one can see all your units are in one control group.
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On October 23 2010 03:41 Friend23 wrote:Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research. Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/VHlHB.jpg) Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE! ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wmN8Z.jpg) Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Jf8VC.jpg) [Explanation, you might skip] Here is how I made it using simple Paint. I made another screenshot this time on scrap station: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iCMtz.jpg) Remade it into this: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/AR02X.jpg) Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WHkWO.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UI8wt.jpg) Result again, look how huge this is: _________________________________________________________________________________ The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong. So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment. My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it. Now why that way? It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's). It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's). It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win. I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback. So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army. Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly. TLDR Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game.
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
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You should start by learning how to spread out your HT's before coming on TL and complaining.
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On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory.
Lots of top tier Terrans seemingly don't use Ghosts - for example, Select in his MLG runs (though interestingly enough he does like to use them in TvT). I think more would get them if more Protoss go for Templar tech instead of Collosi. I think even though they are good, you really need to get off very good EMPs for them to be cost effective, and even then there's the chance of being overrun if the Protoss outmacros you for that one production cycle you use for Ghosts (especially true for early-mid game timing). So while Ghosts are "better" in many situations, MM tends to feel "safer." But I think when people get the timings more and more locked down during the matchup, good players will be able to find safe and effective times to transition to Ghosts
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Balance between races aside, Templar require 4 tech buildings and 2 research upgrades to do the damage you describe. Ghosts require 2 buildings and no upgrades. Logically, Templar should be significantly stronger due to their higher technology investment. Before saying Terran got decimated by Warp Gate Templar Storms, you might want to look at how much went into getting there.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:41 Friend23 wrote:Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research. Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now. Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE! Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED: [Explanation, you might skip] Here is how I made it using simple Paint. I made another screenshot this time on scrap station: Remade it into this: Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics: Result again, look how huge this is: _________________________________________________________________________________ The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong. So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment. My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it. Now why that way? It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's). It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's). It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win. I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback. So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army. Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly. TLDR Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game. TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
Have you been living under a rock? TvP is the most imbalanced matchup (at high levels). Look at tournament statistics, not ladder where everything is forced to 50% due to the system creating purposeful mismatches to keep people's win percentages equal.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
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On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. + Show Spoiler +Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
I personally don't see much flaw with most of those. I feel there are 2 things that would make TvP better. First is, phoenix should not be able to lift tanks, they suck enough without it. Second is, stargate play needs to be a viable tech route for standard play(I personally think fusion core for cloak would be overkill, but something needs to be done imo).
Anyway ghosts sound incredibly OP compared to HTs, but ingame they really ain't. There are probably many reasons for it, everything from zlots vs rauders to warpin storms, but yer.
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How about we only have protoss. no terran or zerg. Balanced problem solved.
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EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
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On October 23 2010 05:01 Doso wrote:
EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
This is a good argument. Also High Templars are cheaper than Ghost, but only by 100 minerals. Which isn't really much because minerals are so abundant.
I personally like the current Ghost vs High Templar. It seems balanced and it battles comes down to micro.
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On October 23 2010 04:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. + Show Spoiler +Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance. I personally don't see much flaw with most of those. I feel there are 2 things that would make TvP better. First is, phoenix should not be able to lift tanks, they suck enough without it. Second is, stargate play needs to be a viable tech route for standard play(I personally think fusion core for cloak would be overkill, but something needs to be done imo). Anyway ghosts sound incredibly OP compared to HTs, but ingame they really ain't. There are probably many reasons for it, everything from zlots vs rauders to warpin storms, but yer.
Remove or heavily delay cloak from Banshees.
Cloak merely existing in such a viable and mobile unit means P needs to open Robo in nearly every game vT, because there's no other way to scout as well as handle a potential cloaked banshee rush. As a result, Stargate and Council openings are less common.
But I'm just theorycrafting blindly here.
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On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still. Here are some: Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game. Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs) DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can. Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has. Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields). Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
Colossi with Phoenix support has been the most popular strat for pvt for a while now. Pros haven't been using a whole lot of ht play lately. And most people (pros included) will tell you that while marauders give Terran a small advantage in the early game, lategame is quite an uphill battle. I wouldn't call it imbalanced from my experience, but i have to abuse drops like crazy to keep up.
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On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking.
HT`s are 150 gas. They are not expendable. You are lucky to even have HT`s in the first place because you have to do so much to even get them. Toss should be able to have a chance to feedback ghosts. You have to have storm to beat a mmm ball. If you retreat he can stim and pick off some of your army and there`s nothing you can do unless you have colossi and HTs.
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On October 23 2010 05:10 us.insurgency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking. HT`s are 150 gas. They are not expendable. You are lucky to even have HT`s in the first place because you have to do so much to even get them. Toss should be able to have a chance to feedback ghosts. You have to have storm to beat a mmm ball. If you retreat he can stim and pick off some of your army and there`s nothing you can do unless you have colossi and HTs.
Sentries are really good at reducing damage from bioballs, which will make your army last much longer, and if you got those feedbacks off before Ghosts can EMP you can probably come out on top depending on army sizes.
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so erm range 9 + spread range of 3? thats what makes it look larger than it is. also 1cgs is bad it causes a ton of problems with larger units/melee units to get in range, and clumps things to get hit by any splash effectively due to the proximity of the units. there is hardly any spacing between units if any.
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On October 23 2010 04:18 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:08 Friend23 wrote:
@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
I don't agree. EMP is damage-dealing, but it's priority purpose is absolutely damage prevention by eliminating storms. EMPs unchecked on your army will cut into its health dramatically - storms unchecked will completely wipe T out, and is the single most powerful tool P has in the lategame. The fact that HTs have a tool to counter the only unit that counters them is rather surprising by itself. Your comparison would make sense if HTs and Ghosts existed to counter each other, and were seen in equal numbers to do so - but this is not the case. P will always have far more HTs than T has ghosts, because the ghosts are there to handle the HTs while the HTs are there to punish the entire T army. This implies T cannot afford to invest as much into Ghosts as P can invest in HTs, and thus it is reasonable that EMP outdoes FB as Ghosts need to be more effective in removing the larger number of HTs than HTs are at one-shotting their only counter unit. Making Ghosts have a 1-to-1 counter in the form of snipe is not reasonable because to have that many Ghosts severely reduces the marauder/medivac count for Terran. At the end of it all, regardless of EMP, you still have a workable unit in the form of the Archon, and if a single HT is not emped, T will be punished.
Youre wrong. If HTs and Ghosts existed in equal number Ghosts would just turn into unit that does +dmg to light. Ocassional snipe. You know why? Cause EMP damage is instant, usually 3-5 emps is more than enough to cover whole ~150 food army, You pull that out of 3 Ghosts. Anytime T hits ~60-75% of Protoss' army including HTs, P loses the battle and the came cause the damage done to T is minimal and P cant recreate the army.
P will always have more HTs than T Ghosts and it is true but the reason for it is EMP being instand and Storm being DoT, that (assuming that T doesnt stand in the Storm) takes 3 Storms to deal same dmg that EMP does, to any P's unit, to lets say Marauders (core bioball unit nonetheless).
Your next arguement, that T cant invest as much gas as P in HTs is wrong as well. P !HAS TO! invest so much gas while Terran simply does not have to to do the same job in terms of dealing damage.
A connected arguement to the above is as you say 'T so cant do that many Ghosts cause it hurts his Marauder count!' Orly? Like the necessity to invest even more gas into HTs, than T has to into Ghosts, doesnt really hurt Stalker count at all. Especially that for each Stalker you have 2 Marauders gas wise. Thats completely off.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 JJEOS wrote:
You should start by learning how to spread out your HT's before coming on TL and complaining.
Just cause youve seen one screen shouldnt make you judge my play. I selected templars and casted feedback on all 3 ghosts cause I believed the range is equal and Id make this work.
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EPT
