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On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more.
I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range.
Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units.
Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed.
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On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed.
Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2.
However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
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On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
I never suggested that hellions should be used. Granted they could be, i agree that the cost effectiveness is hard to compare and probably is harder to acheive in sc2.
My point is that, p's in bw, found a solution to this, use shuttles. Most of the SC2 community already agrees that warp prisms are underused, this is just another reason why to incorporate them into your mid-late game armies.
As a random player, it just irks when when 1/3 of alot of tl posts are people forcing the game to adjust the game to make it easier for their respective races instead of practicing more and trying to find sensible solutions.
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With ghosts, you need to predict the the position of the HTs, then hit the edge of the emp on the HTs, and then make sure there aren't 30 more that are in the back or have just been warped in.
Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function
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Really? Both spells are very powerful and completely fine.
Seems like another "nerf this because I lost" thread.
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On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
Erm...hellions and vultures are equally mobile. The only difference is that vultures are better at kiting. I'm also pretty damn sure dragoons shred vultures that approach the Protoss death ball a helluva lot faster than stalkers do to hellions.
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On October 23 2010 09:37 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though. Erm...hellions and vultures are equally mobile. The only difference is that vultures are better at kiting. I'm also pretty damn sure dragoons shred vultures that approach the Protoss death ball a helluva lot faster than stalkers do to hellions.
The problem is that vultures are far more versatile than hellions. Due to the way BW metagame works, you are bound to have excessive number of vulture that you can use to snipe templar. Hellions don't have mines, they are 25 minerals more expensive and they don't counter Protoss shields like vulture did in BW. Protoss can warp templar directly onto the battlefield with warpgate with 75 energy.
It's just not the same thing. Not to mention tanks are next to useless in TvP now.
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use a warp prism to protect ur templar from getting emp, then drop and storm
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Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function
We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =)
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Just a random question, will EMP hit templars as they warp in?
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Well... I think that feedback is strong enough as it is. You can't determine the balance between emp and feedback by comparing the ghost and templar because the interaction between the two units is a small fraction of the utilization of these units.
Yeah, the ghost can emp the templar before the templar can feedback the ghost, but the templar can also feedback ravens, medivacs, battlecruisers and banshee's.
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On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =)
Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT.
But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd.
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On October 23 2010 11:20 VanGarde wrote:
Yeah, the ghost can emp the templar before the templar can feedback the ghost, but the templar can also feedback ravens, medivacs, battlecruisers and banshee's.
Not sure what the point of listing the units templar can feedback on is for when ghost's EMP affects every single protoss unit lol =p
But I don't think protoss/terran players will ever agree on the ghost balance debate haha.
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Why would you waste energy and effort to feedback ghosts? why don't you just drop 2 storms on the bioball and completely destroy it...EMP becomes irrelevant then.
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On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
Really? EMP needs to be stronger when it costs half as much?
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its balanced, stop crying.
if theres any change to be made in pvt I would make observers and ravens 50 gas cheaper
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Watching Pro games 80% of the time getting storm with amulet means win.....
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Ya I think if emp were to be worsened (?), the matchup would be quite broken. Its hard enough having to go bio in this matchup, but now there would be no counter to the strongest (or colosi) response to bio if emp is nerfed So, ya, no i dont agree.
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On October 23 2010 11:38 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =) Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT. But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd.
haha yeah I know, I said that just for fun because I know players of both races will never agree on it anyways lol.
well as for getting stormed being worse than EMP, I personally don't agree, while both are strong, storm you can move out and dodge at least part of the effects - EMP is instant damage while draining all mana of spellcasters. but i guess it depends on the juncture of the game.
one thing that bothers me though, is that people always make it sound like you can warp in an unlimited amount of templars, amulet research or not, it costs 150 gas PER high templar - that is a crap load of gas. not to mention how long it takes to actually get to the templar tech with psi storm AND amulet researched.
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On October 23 2010 12:05 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 11:38 Bagi wrote:On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =) Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT. But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd. haha yeah I know, I said that just for fun because I know players of both races will never agree on it anyways lol. well as for getting stormed being worse than EMP, I personally don't agree, while both are strong, storm you can move out and dodge at least part of the effects - EMP is instant damage while draining all mana of spellcasters. but i guess it depends on the juncture of the game. one thing that bothers me though, is that people always make it sound like you can warp in an unlimited amount of templars, amulet research or not, it costs 150 gas PER high templar - that is a crap load of gas. not to mention how long it takes to actually get to the templar tech with psi storm AND amulet researched.
It also depends whether Protoss is aggressive or defensive. If Protoss is aggressive, he could retreat a little without being chased if possible. Regenerate shields which are much faster now and then come back. Otherwise, it depends on ur initial army placement.
Storm does permanent damage that must be healed by medivacs, thus they also drain energy as an additional function. Templars certainly cost more to get tech but it is easier to sustain upon reaching that tech. Time and distance is also a resource. Protoss is meant to resupply faster than Terran (while Zerg resupplies faster than Protoss) So, you can make more Templars faster than a Terran can make ghosts and be immediately battle effective thanks to warp in. Additionally, it also costs 150 gas PER Ghost, hence gas costs are not considered by my part.
Both units have different ways of being supportive, thus both have their edge and weaknesses. I believe its difficult without preparation such as scans for Terran to move in and EMP effectively against a good spread of HTs and with observers. Ghosts too need their upgrades such as the Moebius Reactor that is like the Terran Khaydarin Amulet. Cloak too will be needed for EMP in the late game but good observer placement can counter that.
Hence, there are both pros and cons to both sides. It now depends highly on user control.
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EPT
