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None of your replies make sense in the context of the actual game.
The T army is based on Marauder/Medivac. The P army in the lategame replenishes Zeal/HT as the zeals tank/HTs expend their energy, while stalkers/immos remain the core part of the army that faces less casualties. You are not sacrificing on the stalker count to make HTs because once you hit templar tech you have no need to dramatically increase the number of stalkers.
Yes, if you walk your entire army into EMPs, you will probably lose. If T walks his entire army into storms, he will also lose. EMP having 1 more range than Feedback does not disrupt this situation, and lategame Stormtech P is generally considered favored against MMM+Ghost T.
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On October 23 2010 05:01 Doso wrote:
EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
This is actually not true. In true game.
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Game is new, we are yet to see PvT Ghost play in the high level. The range issue will then kick in.
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I can't believe this post. You sure did a lot of research for a long QQ essay about something that is the last thing to be "nerfed". Toss are living the dream right now with warpgates and HT amulet upgrade. Yeah it costs gas to warp in HTs, but guess what? It costs gas to make ghosts and takes them a significantly longer time to produce. Seriously man move on.
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We're also yet to see much of high-level HT control due to the prevalence of colossi, including BW tricks like hiding HTs in prisms.
It's definitely too early to call it.
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I think it's not too hard to protect your high templars from getting emped by keeping them at the back of your army and spreading them out. If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked. The picture in the OP shows how you shouldn't position your high templars.
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As a Protoss player, EMP just feels so strong. Mainly becaise of the AoE. It's like Storm and Feedback combined into one spell if you place it right. And with range 10, its basically impossible to stop. Against a Templar-heavy army, 4-5 Ghosts not only negate ALL of your spellcasting, but make your already fragile Gateway army even weaker against a Bio Ball.
Also, I'd like to make a point to all the people saying "spread your Templar out." Sure, that sounds great in theory, and there's no excuse for not doing it in a defensive position. But the pathfinding in this game makes it pretty much impossible to keep them spread out if you're on the move without devoting 100% of your attention to them.
I keep my Templar in a second control group behind my main army, but a smart Terran player won't waste their EMPs when they know Templar are out. By the time your Templar get to battle, if you're lucky enough to get a Storm off, you will already be behind due to the sheer damage dealing that a Stimmed Bio army does against Gateway units. If you cant get any Storms off, you might as well GG right there.
All that said, I really can't think of a change that won't break the matchup. The only thing I can think of is the lower EMP's radius a little bit and make it more of an anti-caster spell, but I don't know. Terran needs EMP or Storm will roflstomp, and Protoss needs Templar to deal with a Bio army once Terran has committed to Vikings.
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On October 23 2010 05:24 Friend23 wrote:
Game is new, we are yet to see PvT Ghost play in the high level. The range issue will then kick in.
Must not watch much high level play, then.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4244308/
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On October 23 2010 05:29 Baum wrote:
I think it's not too hard to protect your high templars from getting emped by keeping them at the back of your army and spreading them out. If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked. The picture in the OP shows how you shouldn't position your high templars.
The pic is only to show the range comparision. Do you think im dumb not to spread as T is approaching? Then Im telling you I am not. In this special case though, he pulled Ghosts up ramp, I had observer there so I decided, hey why not to feedback them. So i hit HT hotkey and went up there cause i expected range to be equal. Well it was not.
'If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked.'
This part however is not true and says only that You havent read the post.
My suggestion was to have Snipe at 115% range of Feedback so that if there are HT's, you first have to kill HT's with Snipe. Spend the energy just so that You cant have both disabled HT's and shields removed. While having EMP range+radius at 90% of Feedback's range so that just as above cant have both advantages of disabling HT's and having shields removed. ATM 1 good emp wins the game and it is ridiculous.
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On October 23 2010 05:09 Senorcuidado wrote:
Colossi with Phoenix support has been the most popular strat for pvt for a while now. Pros haven't been using a whole lot of ht play lately. And most people (pros included) will tell you that while marauders give Terran a small advantage in the early game, lategame is quite an uphill battle. I wouldn't call it imbalanced from my experience, but i have to abuse drops like crazy to keep up.
Replays please. I havent been very diligent in watching high level plays lately, so you could be right. But this just seems wrong on so many levels:
1) marines are 50m and are nearly always present
2) Thors have obscene range, splash, and +damage to phoenix (and are now immune to Feedback)
3) Turrets rape air hard
4) Vikings parked over a bioball are unapproachable by Phoenix
5) No good transition out of stargate with VR nerf and Carrier being scarce.
Pros cant use HTs as well because terran timing attacks and harass are just so strong (see: marauder, banshee etc) They also cost a ton of gas and time to get (2 expensive upgrades! with long build times...)
A single ghost can spell doom early for a templar techer (since they have EMP inherently and T can easily scout templars with a scan). If T pushes at a time when P hasnt got storm (or amulet) upgraded, P also prolly doesnt have too many templar which means that a good EMP can really turn the tide and eliminate any templar saving up energy (if storm is researched, but not amulet).
Colossi are easy to use by comparison (stronger, A-movable), come with easy transition (from immortals) and dont give up mobile detection (observers) while teching.
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On October 23 2010 05:35 BOOWOO wrote:
As a Protoss player, EMP just feels so strong. Mainly becaise of the AoE. It's like Storm and Feedback combined into one spell if you place it right. And with range 10, its basically impossible to stop. Against a Templar-heavy army, 4-5 Ghosts not only negate ALL of your spellcasting, but make your already fragile Gateway army even weaker against a Bio Ball.
I think the way this is supposed to work is that ghosts are good against templars, and vikings are good against colossi, but the terran can't make enough of both without compromising big time on medivac count.
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Great idea!
@Terrans, storm does 75 dmg over time, and terran has medivacs, whereas emp does 100 dmg to shields instantly, with no quick/instant heal (eg. medivacs or shield batteries), also, vikings are very good vs. collosus and carriers (but whoever suggests that as a counter is retarded), so the protoss is almost forced into templar tech, unless they have super gosu micro...
Also, storm + khydarin amulet takes forever to build, but you can tech to ghosts very easily (more easily than templars atleast)
I think a slight range buff on feedback so that it can outrange emp, but not snipe like OP suggested is a really good idea.
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I really like this idea, but then I think that Terran would need a buff to their lategame versus Toss (which is already true, but this would make it even moreso, because it would be harder for them to cripple the Toss early). Perhaps a Battlecruiser change or a large buff to Ravens' Seeker Missile at the cost of being moved back to the Fusion Core would make this work?
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tvp is already in favor of P. And templars already are insanely strong, no reason to buff them.
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Ghosts and Ravens will probably both be nerfed when Terrans get better. It doesn't really make sense for the Ghost to have longer range, be faster, have cloak and have such a large instant AoE. Right now so many Protoss are going heavy Colossus that Terran are spending most of their gas on Vikings until later in the game. I think we will see more Speedlot/Immortal in the future since mass Colossus can be pretty easily countered by Marauder/Viking. Once that happens expect to see more Ghosts and then it will be more evident how powerful they are.
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Right now, the PvT metagame does not seem to suffer from obvious balance issue. If you buff the feedback range, then something from Terran must be buffed as well.
Let's not forget that even emp'ed templar can morph into archon on the battlefield, which is an instantaneously generated 370 hp meat shield for your battle units including the colossus while a ghost suffering a feedback = a dead ghost.
A good Protoss player would spread out the templars instead of clustering into a giant ball. I don't see the problem.
As far as the PvT metagame goes, atm, due to tank nerf, marine marauder ghost, viking and medivac is the only way to play it. Protoss has two hard counters to terran bio, viking solves colossus while ghost somewhat solves templar. If ghost no longer counter templar, but the other way around, I see a problem here.
Also, while you are asking for a feedback range buff against ghost, you do realize that would affect the effectiveness of medivac and raven as well?
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Coming from a zerg player, I think increasing HTs range would make ghost vs HT's much more entertaining to watch. However from what I have seen PvT lategame isn't scewed in the terrans' favor.
So I do agree with the OP, however I think terran would need some changes for their lategame viability against toss if this was implemented.
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but feedback counters far more than just ghosts, its borderline OP in PvT as is.
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EMP and feedback are 2 different spells.. why on earth are they "supposed" to have the same range
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@ OP
So u think the gohst should equal the HT, u would do this by changing ranges as u said so EMP=storm and snipe=feed back
But this doesn't make the gohst=HT, gohst cost allot more, and T tend to have less bases and therefore a a lower gass income, its harder to get a gohst to the battle field than a HT coz it has to walk, HT can turn into arcons, yes gohst can still shoot but its really not all that good.
And why do unit have to be the same to be balnced, they kinda dont. Thats why there are three races and just 1 boring race called protoss
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I think its very weird to still see people saying "but emp doesn't do damage" - what about ALL the shields it drains from the protoss units? How is that not damage lol.
Ghosts are way too powerful against protoss early-mid game before templars come. Theres nothing majority of protoss players can even do to stop an early bio ball with a ghost or two mixed in. One scan to get high ground vision, EMP the sentries, and its pretty much GG on a small map.
Its obvious terrans dominate protoss early game, but as the game progresses it will gradually favor the protoss more and more. Even though the win rates might be close to 50/50%, thats still not exactly a 'balanced' matchup. Terrans shouldn't have to win within the first 10 minutes in order to have the best chances to win. On the other hand, protoss shouldn't lose (pretty much automatically) if they fail to make the perfect forcefield at their ramp early game either. Buff some late game terran units but make EMP a researched ability.
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EPT
