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Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research.
Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/VHlHB.jpg)
Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE!
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wmN8Z.jpg)
Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Jf8VC.jpg)
[Explanation, you might skip]
Here is how I made it using simple Paint.
I made another screenshot this time on scrap station:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iCMtz.jpg)
Remade it into this:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/AR02X.jpg)
Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WHkWO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/UI8wt.jpg)
Result again, look how huge this is:
_________________________________________________________________________________
The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong.
So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment.
My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it.
Now why that way?
It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's).
It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's).
It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win.
I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback.
So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army.
Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly.
TLDR
Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game.
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I really think it's fine. You would have rocked if you made colossus or carriers.
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fairly good assessment and suggestion and as a toss player i agree. however as protoss is still viewed as slightly more powerful than terran i don't see this change coming any time soon.
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Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking.
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I agree with OP. It'd make things fair and result in great, engaging, crowd-pleasing micro battles. Right now EMP is just an extremely good blunt instrument with no real counter.
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That was at the stage when I was just starting getting Colossi. A combo of Storm and Colossi do insanely good. But it doesnt really matter. There is no point why Ghost could reach HT from higher range like that.
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To fully consider the balance problem between those two units, replace EMP by storm and it will be fine..
Ok, I will rephrase it, that's some unnecessary and stupid changes. Like most QQ posts on Battle.net forum, you are just considering two units (or worse, you are considering only some of the spell of those two units) instead of considering the whole matchup.
Look at high level games, storm rapes MMM play, and MMMG too once you reach a critical mass of HTs. Then you whole point of "oh noes ghosts is auto win for terran" is null and if changes are needed, that's maybe storm nerf or ghost buff.
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why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
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On October 23 2010 03:54 brain_ wrote:
I agree with OP. It'd make things fair and result in great, engaging, crowd-pleasing micro battles. Right now EMP is just an extremely good blunt instrument with no real counter.
I am pretty sure the EMP is a counter made to stop storms and other really strong spells. There is no need for change in the range.
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EMP has range 10, feedback has range 9, dunno why they have these respective ranges, but those are the stats.
The problem with the EMP vs Storm dynamic is that colossus tech is too good and resistant to EMP effects that this discrepancy isn't addressed.
---Ultimately the way to beat EMP with storms is good positioning and protection of your templars (spread out, scouting observers, etc.)
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Don't bunch up your templars like a retard and don't keep them in the front of your army and you're fine.
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Today I was winning a battle. Suddenly the protoss warped in 5 HT's and stormed my army away. Then, when my units were making, the toss reïnforced so fast (thanks to warpgates) and he beated me. By the time my new units were out, the toss had warped in a big army and he was in my base. I had 10 raxes making units.
So:
- you can warp the unit in and storm immeadiately.
- you can actually KILL units with it.
How can people say that there is no counter to emp?
I see a lot of protosses only viewing their side, but not the side of the terran. Storm is amazing against bio and it's really hard to dodge it and emp a well spreaded army.
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
I assume because they have less practice using them (colossus tech is more common) and thus have difficulty stimkiting, controlling medivacs, and also landing EMPs.
If you're asking why they don't just use them in general for the EMP damage I have no idea.
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory.
In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more.
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@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
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EMP is fine, spreading out HTs and the fact they can warp in storm ready is really annoying. Not having having to research emp is not.
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Psi storm completely wrecks the bioball which is why overall a HT is a much more efficient unit than the ghost. So if you misclick or mistime your EMP might hit nothing while feedback will hit every time given you click on the unit. Given the tech and macro of the protoss he can easily have Colossi out which can wreck any ghost pretty easily even with that range.
ALSO, Protoss have the option to shove all the HT into a warp prism and be free from any EMPs and snipes completely. Although much more micro intensive, it pays off if T gets impatient and wastes his EMPs on the rest of your army, your HT will be free to storm/feedback.
I don't think the current state of the game, that feedback vs EMP is an issue, cause there are so many more variables to consider.
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Why don't you complain that phoenix don't hit ground and have 9 range too, hell why not have immortals do splash damage?
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On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
How is this even relevant? I use ghosts all the time. I see them used plenty. If there is any reason why they don't use them much it's because there's no need to when toss go collosus all the time.
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EMP is fine, if you have even 2 army groups of templar/zeal EMP becomes a joke, especially if your HT have been out for a while getting 200/200 energy.
Plz don't act like we don't have to pay 50/150 for a single storm WITH the upgrade.
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Some people like the ghost vs templar duels that can happen in TvP but I personally do not.
It basically turns into an arms race between the two units: Storm is ungodly powerful so terran needs to be able to counter templar, and EMP is introduced. But EMP is also retardedly powerful, so templar need to counter that (enter: feedback instead of that phase shift nonsense). Feedback is strong too, so what counters it? Snipe? Potentially, but also EMP.
This turns it into a fight where whoever gets the first hit has a huge advantage. If T can spam EMP on Ps army, they will not only eliminate up to 100 shield pts, but they will also eliminate FF, guardian shield, storm and feedback from the fight.
The P counter is spreading + warping in new HTs
If P can get good feedbacks, they can stop their army from instantly melting and pen the T in with FF, then vaporize them with storm.
Terran really has no good counter to this since good FFs are brutally effective... except EMP or templar sniping (cloak+snipe ability in advance, banshees, hellions etc)
Its quite a sad state of the game IMO because while it does reward skill (which im a fan of) it doesnt really leave any other good options for either player.
They need to spread some of these abilities out to other units, or change how they work in order to make them a little more viable instead of TvP ending in ghost/HT fights: its logical conclusion.
They could also redesign abilities (i know it isnt beta anymore, *sigh*) so that things arent so 1-sided (for either race) once those abilities go down.
The existence of the DA, while not used often, at least ensured that you didnt have a caster who could not only rape large quantities of low HP units, but also SMITE all enemy casters, making them useless and possibly killing them. Similarly, the expensive sci vessel with its upgrades ensured that the protoss-negating EMP wasnt thrown around so easily.
I hope this doesnt appear biased (im toss). I really like that there are still abilities in the game (EMP, storm, feedback) that make people go: "whoa, that kinda OP." But there should also be counters to that on other units so its not all one-sided once they go down.
Countering Unit A with Unit B that also gets countered by Unit A just seems like bad design imo, even if it is sometimes fun to watch.
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On October 23 2010 04:08 Friend23 wrote:
@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
I don't agree.
EMP is damage-dealing, but it's priority purpose is absolutely damage prevention by eliminating storms. EMPs unchecked on your army will cut into its health dramatically - storms unchecked will completely wipe T out, and is the single most powerful tool P has in the lategame. The fact that HTs have a tool to counter the only unit that counters them is rather surprising by itself.
Your comparison would make sense if HTs and Ghosts existed to counter each other, and were seen in equal numbers to do so - but this is not the case. P will always have far more HTs than T has ghosts, because the ghosts are there to handle the HTs while the HTs are there to punish the entire T army. This implies T cannot afford to invest as much into Ghosts as P can invest in HTs, and thus it is reasonable that EMP outdoes FB as Ghosts need to be more effective in removing the larger number of HTs than HTs are at one-shotting their only counter unit. Making Ghosts have a 1-to-1 counter in the form of snipe is not reasonable because to have that many Ghosts severely reduces the marauder/medivac count for Terran.
At the end of it all, regardless of EMP, you still have a workable unit in the form of the Archon, and if a single HT is not emped, T will be punished.
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spread your units, on the first picture one can see all your units are in one control group.
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On October 23 2010 03:41 Friend23 wrote:Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research. Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now. Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE! Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED: [Explanation, you might skip] Here is how I made it using simple Paint. I made another screenshot this time on scrap station: Remade it into this: Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics: Result again, look how huge this is: _________________________________________________________________________________ The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong. So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment. My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it. Now why that way? It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's). It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's). It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win. I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback. So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army. Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly. TLDR Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game.
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
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You should start by learning how to spread out your HT's before coming on TL and complaining.
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On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory.
Lots of top tier Terrans seemingly don't use Ghosts - for example, Select in his MLG runs (though interestingly enough he does like to use them in TvT). I think more would get them if more Protoss go for Templar tech instead of Collosi. I think even though they are good, you really need to get off very good EMPs for them to be cost effective, and even then there's the chance of being overrun if the Protoss outmacros you for that one production cycle you use for Ghosts (especially true for early-mid game timing). So while Ghosts are "better" in many situations, MM tends to feel "safer." But I think when people get the timings more and more locked down during the matchup, good players will be able to find safe and effective times to transition to Ghosts
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Balance between races aside, Templar require 4 tech buildings and 2 research upgrades to do the damage you describe. Ghosts require 2 buildings and no upgrades. Logically, Templar should be significantly stronger due to their higher technology investment. Before saying Terran got decimated by Warp Gate Templar Storms, you might want to look at how much went into getting there.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:41 Friend23 wrote:Now to begin.Once during a ladder game I ate EMP in my face but I was actually surprised cause I did cast (or order my HT to cast) Feedback on the Ghost. That made me do a small research. Here is the picture of the EMP. I had an observer up ground so I could do what I had planned. Yet the Range + Radius of the EMP appeared to be so insanely big that and I just decided to do what I am showing to You right now. Now, I made the research to check what is the range of Feedback. This is the result. My HT should be standing in the radius as on the picture (more or less) to be able to Feedback the Ghost. Look where he should be standing, and where EMP actually hit. This is HUGE! Highlited version - High Templars - units with Energy Bars made in RED: [Explanation, you might skip] Here is how I made it using simple Paint. I made another screenshot this time on scrap station: Remade it into this: Then I pasted it to the first picture so that these two corners are the same point on both pics: Result again, look how huge this is: _________________________________________________________________________________ The results say that EMP range + radius is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Feedbacks range. Even if you see and compare the first 2 pictures(on Metalopolis pre and after adding the HT), you can see that the Feedbacks range is actually a little bit smaller than EMPs range but I might be wrong. So, the point of all that is obviously pointing out that this needs readjustment. My personal suggestion is that Feedback's cast range should be equal to the sum of EMP's range and its radius. Or perhaps at 90% of Feedback's range. However! Snipe's range should be of 115% of Feedback's range. Its damage is now 45 for 25 Energy, that makes 2 Snipes for a HT to kill it. Now why that way? It makes Ghost still a viable counter to HT's (Snipe's range higher than Feedback's). It still allows HT to counter Ghost if T is greedy or not has enough APM/bad micro (Feedback's range higher than EMP's). It still leaves Ghost a great unit against Protoss (shield removal) just that T cant cast just 1 spell and win. I really think this would add a lot of the micro to the PvT HTvGhost combat: You dont want to get stormed? Snipe HTs. You want to remove shields? Do it, but then EMP army, not HT's and deal with storm. Greedy Terran wants to EMP HT's? Bang, no more 1 spell 1 win button for T. You try that, you eat Feedback. So the natural order for T would be to first Snipe HT's if he doesnt want to eat storm, and then if he has enough energy he could EMP army. Not to mention that the Ghost can just Cloak and sneak from behind and EMP HTs. But it never happens. Why? Cause EMP's range is higher than Feedbacks. Not to mention that a Ghost hidden under Medivacs is already impossible to target. AND that it doesnt reduce the amount of micro and skill necessary for the P to actually target the Ghosts correctly. TLDR Suggestion: Reduce EMPs range so that EMP's range+radius is equal to 90% of Feedbacks range. Set Snipes range to 115% of Feedbacks range. Will make the T have to decide whether he hits HT's or army, for the middle stages. And in the late stages it adds even more micro to the game. TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
Have you been living under a rock? TvP is the most imbalanced matchup (at high levels). Look at tournament statistics, not ladder where everything is forced to 50% due to the system creating purposeful mismatches to keep people's win percentages equal.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones.
Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
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On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. + Show Spoiler +Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
I personally don't see much flaw with most of those. I feel there are 2 things that would make TvP better. First is, phoenix should not be able to lift tanks, they suck enough without it. Second is, stargate play needs to be a viable tech route for standard play(I personally think fusion core for cloak would be overkill, but something needs to be done imo).
Anyway ghosts sound incredibly OP compared to HTs, but ingame they really ain't. There are probably many reasons for it, everything from zlots vs rauders to warpin storms, but yer.
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How about we only have protoss. no terran or zerg. Balanced problem solved.
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EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
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On October 23 2010 05:01 Doso wrote:
EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
This is a good argument. Also High Templars are cheaper than Ghost, but only by 100 minerals. Which isn't really much because minerals are so abundant.
I personally like the current Ghost vs High Templar. It seems balanced and it battles comes down to micro.
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On October 23 2010 04:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. + Show Spoiler +Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still.
Here are some:
Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game.
Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs)
DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation
Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can.
Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has.
Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed
BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs
This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields).
Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance. I personally don't see much flaw with most of those. I feel there are 2 things that would make TvP better. First is, phoenix should not be able to lift tanks, they suck enough without it. Second is, stargate play needs to be a viable tech route for standard play(I personally think fusion core for cloak would be overkill, but something needs to be done imo). Anyway ghosts sound incredibly OP compared to HTs, but ingame they really ain't. There are probably many reasons for it, everything from zlots vs rauders to warpin storms, but yer.
Remove or heavily delay cloak from Banshees.
Cloak merely existing in such a viable and mobile unit means P needs to open Robo in nearly every game vT, because there's no other way to scout as well as handle a potential cloaked banshee rush. As a result, Stargate and Council openings are less common.
But I'm just theorycrafting blindly here.
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On October 23 2010 04:36 Knee_of_Justice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:23 xnub wrote:
TvP is the most balanced matchup in the game still. EMP and Storm don't need to be changed both are fine and can be used to win a game. There is no reason what so ever to change them and unbalance the match as it stands. The only tweeks that need to be done to tvp are small small ones. Even if it is balanced on paper (win rates) or feels balanced, that doesnt mean there arent large problems that need to be addressed still. Here are some: Marauders are dominant against toss early game. I dont say OP cause they can be beaten with good scouting and FF, but they are dominant and punishing across the entire game. Forcefield is unable to be countered by T until thors (enjoy microing thors to kill FFs) DTs are only really good lategame for map control/wasting scans, usually dont pay for themselves and have a dead-end tech building with no upgrades. Archons are not that effective against what they should be (bio) and usually die in their formation Vikings can beat colossi so easily, while almost nothing else can. Templar with amulet dominate lategame bio armies and casters because vikings are so effective against colossi and theyre the only option toss has. Phoenix are mostly useless except in a few extenuating circumstances: T is free to make vikings mostly unopposed BCs are also extremely powerful unless toss has a ton of HT with feedback/stalkers, or a ton of VRs This is the current state of the game (it will certainly change over time). Its mostly just generalizations. All are for the most part avoidable or counterable, but they can still have a huge impact on the entire matchup (like marauders and forcefields). Just cause its "balanced" doesnt mean its "healthy" balance.
Colossi with Phoenix support has been the most popular strat for pvt for a while now. Pros haven't been using a whole lot of ht play lately. And most people (pros included) will tell you that while marauders give Terran a small advantage in the early game, lategame is quite an uphill battle. I wouldn't call it imbalanced from my experience, but i have to abuse drops like crazy to keep up.
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On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking.
HT`s are 150 gas. They are not expendable. You are lucky to even have HT`s in the first place because you have to do so much to even get them. Toss should be able to have a chance to feedback ghosts. You have to have storm to beat a mmm ball. If you retreat he can stim and pick off some of your army and there`s nothing you can do unless you have colossi and HTs.
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On October 23 2010 05:10 us.insurgency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
There are other things to consider, but that's the main one. When T gets ghosts feedbacked, he has little to no defense against storm. When P gets EMPed (on every ht, which are of course spread out to require multiple shots), you can make archons, warp in a bunch more HTs, and keep on attacking. HT`s are 150 gas. They are not expendable. You are lucky to even have HT`s in the first place because you have to do so much to even get them. Toss should be able to have a chance to feedback ghosts. You have to have storm to beat a mmm ball. If you retreat he can stim and pick off some of your army and there`s nothing you can do unless you have colossi and HTs.
Sentries are really good at reducing damage from bioballs, which will make your army last much longer, and if you got those feedbacks off before Ghosts can EMP you can probably come out on top depending on army sizes.
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so erm range 9 + spread range of 3? thats what makes it look larger than it is. also 1cgs is bad it causes a ton of problems with larger units/melee units to get in range, and clumps things to get hit by any splash effectively due to the proximity of the units. there is hardly any spacing between units if any.
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On October 23 2010 04:18 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:08 Friend23 wrote:
@ Dfgj
I think Id like to say that you take it wrong. We should consider that EMP is equal to Storm, and equal to Feedback is Snipe. ATM EMP fits both roles. Take out HTs, hurt army. The change I suggest would split that.
It would be like I mentioned in the post. You want to take out HTs? Snipe them. You want to deal direct damage to the army? EMP it, but the army cause there is Feedback if You come too close, if youre too greedy.
While I agree that you can warp in HTs, it eats so freaking much gas that it makes you raw on all other units. Unlocking HT takes twice as much gas than unlocking Ghost. And it needs much less Ghosts to do their job than it takes HTs to do their job.
And in spite of all that theory this is so easy to miss the Ghost, they can Cloak, have faster movement speed.
I really think that range issue should be addressed some way.
I don't agree. EMP is damage-dealing, but it's priority purpose is absolutely damage prevention by eliminating storms. EMPs unchecked on your army will cut into its health dramatically - storms unchecked will completely wipe T out, and is the single most powerful tool P has in the lategame. The fact that HTs have a tool to counter the only unit that counters them is rather surprising by itself. Your comparison would make sense if HTs and Ghosts existed to counter each other, and were seen in equal numbers to do so - but this is not the case. P will always have far more HTs than T has ghosts, because the ghosts are there to handle the HTs while the HTs are there to punish the entire T army. This implies T cannot afford to invest as much into Ghosts as P can invest in HTs, and thus it is reasonable that EMP outdoes FB as Ghosts need to be more effective in removing the larger number of HTs than HTs are at one-shotting their only counter unit. Making Ghosts have a 1-to-1 counter in the form of snipe is not reasonable because to have that many Ghosts severely reduces the marauder/medivac count for Terran. At the end of it all, regardless of EMP, you still have a workable unit in the form of the Archon, and if a single HT is not emped, T will be punished.
Youre wrong. If HTs and Ghosts existed in equal number Ghosts would just turn into unit that does +dmg to light. Ocassional snipe. You know why? Cause EMP damage is instant, usually 3-5 emps is more than enough to cover whole ~150 food army, You pull that out of 3 Ghosts. Anytime T hits ~60-75% of Protoss' army including HTs, P loses the battle and the came cause the damage done to T is minimal and P cant recreate the army.
P will always have more HTs than T Ghosts and it is true but the reason for it is EMP being instand and Storm being DoT, that (assuming that T doesnt stand in the Storm) takes 3 Storms to deal same dmg that EMP does, to any P's unit, to lets say Marauders (core bioball unit nonetheless).
Your next arguement, that T cant invest as much gas as P in HTs is wrong as well. P !HAS TO! invest so much gas while Terran simply does not have to to do the same job in terms of dealing damage.
A connected arguement to the above is as you say 'T so cant do that many Ghosts cause it hurts his Marauder count!' Orly? Like the necessity to invest even more gas into HTs, than T has to into Ghosts, doesnt really hurt Stalker count at all. Especially that for each Stalker you have 2 Marauders gas wise. Thats completely off.
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On October 23 2010 04:23 JJEOS wrote:
You should start by learning how to spread out your HT's before coming on TL and complaining.
Just cause youve seen one screen shouldnt make you judge my play. I selected templars and casted feedback on all 3 ghosts cause I believed the range is equal and Id make this work.
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None of your replies make sense in the context of the actual game.
The T army is based on Marauder/Medivac. The P army in the lategame replenishes Zeal/HT as the zeals tank/HTs expend their energy, while stalkers/immos remain the core part of the army that faces less casualties. You are not sacrificing on the stalker count to make HTs because once you hit templar tech you have no need to dramatically increase the number of stalkers.
Yes, if you walk your entire army into EMPs, you will probably lose. If T walks his entire army into storms, he will also lose. EMP having 1 more range than Feedback does not disrupt this situation, and lategame Stormtech P is generally considered favored against MMM+Ghost T.
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On October 23 2010 05:01 Doso wrote:
EMP doesn't kill anything, storm/feedback does.
This is actually not true. In true game.
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Game is new, we are yet to see PvT Ghost play in the high level. The range issue will then kick in.
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I can't believe this post. You sure did a lot of research for a long QQ essay about something that is the last thing to be "nerfed". Toss are living the dream right now with warpgates and HT amulet upgrade. Yeah it costs gas to warp in HTs, but guess what? It costs gas to make ghosts and takes them a significantly longer time to produce. Seriously man move on.
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We're also yet to see much of high-level HT control due to the prevalence of colossi, including BW tricks like hiding HTs in prisms.
It's definitely too early to call it.
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I think it's not too hard to protect your high templars from getting emped by keeping them at the back of your army and spreading them out. If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked. The picture in the OP shows how you shouldn't position your high templars.
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As a Protoss player, EMP just feels so strong. Mainly becaise of the AoE. It's like Storm and Feedback combined into one spell if you place it right. And with range 10, its basically impossible to stop. Against a Templar-heavy army, 4-5 Ghosts not only negate ALL of your spellcasting, but make your already fragile Gateway army even weaker against a Bio Ball.
Also, I'd like to make a point to all the people saying "spread your Templar out." Sure, that sounds great in theory, and there's no excuse for not doing it in a defensive position. But the pathfinding in this game makes it pretty much impossible to keep them spread out if you're on the move without devoting 100% of your attention to them.
I keep my Templar in a second control group behind my main army, but a smart Terran player won't waste their EMPs when they know Templar are out. By the time your Templar get to battle, if you're lucky enough to get a Storm off, you will already be behind due to the sheer damage dealing that a Stimmed Bio army does against Gateway units. If you cant get any Storms off, you might as well GG right there.
All that said, I really can't think of a change that won't break the matchup. The only thing I can think of is the lower EMP's radius a little bit and make it more of an anti-caster spell, but I don't know. Terran needs EMP or Storm will roflstomp, and Protoss needs Templar to deal with a Bio army once Terran has committed to Vikings.
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On October 23 2010 05:24 Friend23 wrote:
Game is new, we are yet to see PvT Ghost play in the high level. The range issue will then kick in.
Must not watch much high level play, then.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4244308/
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On October 23 2010 05:29 Baum wrote:
I think it's not too hard to protect your high templars from getting emped by keeping them at the back of your army and spreading them out. If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked. The picture in the OP shows how you shouldn't position your high templars.
The pic is only to show the range comparision. Do you think im dumb not to spread as T is approaching? Then Im telling you I am not. In this special case though, he pulled Ghosts up ramp, I had observer there so I decided, hey why not to feedback them. So i hit HT hotkey and went up there cause i expected range to be equal. Well it was not.
'If feedback had the same range as emp it would be insanely hard to hit a reasonable amount of high templars since any incoming ghost could just be feedbacked.'
This part however is not true and says only that You havent read the post.
My suggestion was to have Snipe at 115% range of Feedback so that if there are HT's, you first have to kill HT's with Snipe. Spend the energy just so that You cant have both disabled HT's and shields removed. While having EMP range+radius at 90% of Feedback's range so that just as above cant have both advantages of disabling HT's and having shields removed. ATM 1 good emp wins the game and it is ridiculous.
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On October 23 2010 05:09 Senorcuidado wrote:
Colossi with Phoenix support has been the most popular strat for pvt for a while now. Pros haven't been using a whole lot of ht play lately. And most people (pros included) will tell you that while marauders give Terran a small advantage in the early game, lategame is quite an uphill battle. I wouldn't call it imbalanced from my experience, but i have to abuse drops like crazy to keep up.
Replays please. I havent been very diligent in watching high level plays lately, so you could be right. But this just seems wrong on so many levels:
1) marines are 50m and are nearly always present
2) Thors have obscene range, splash, and +damage to phoenix (and are now immune to Feedback)
3) Turrets rape air hard
4) Vikings parked over a bioball are unapproachable by Phoenix
5) No good transition out of stargate with VR nerf and Carrier being scarce.
Pros cant use HTs as well because terran timing attacks and harass are just so strong (see: marauder, banshee etc) They also cost a ton of gas and time to get (2 expensive upgrades! with long build times...)
A single ghost can spell doom early for a templar techer (since they have EMP inherently and T can easily scout templars with a scan). If T pushes at a time when P hasnt got storm (or amulet) upgraded, P also prolly doesnt have too many templar which means that a good EMP can really turn the tide and eliminate any templar saving up energy (if storm is researched, but not amulet).
Colossi are easy to use by comparison (stronger, A-movable), come with easy transition (from immortals) and dont give up mobile detection (observers) while teching.
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On October 23 2010 05:35 BOOWOO wrote:
As a Protoss player, EMP just feels so strong. Mainly becaise of the AoE. It's like Storm and Feedback combined into one spell if you place it right. And with range 10, its basically impossible to stop. Against a Templar-heavy army, 4-5 Ghosts not only negate ALL of your spellcasting, but make your already fragile Gateway army even weaker against a Bio Ball.
I think the way this is supposed to work is that ghosts are good against templars, and vikings are good against colossi, but the terran can't make enough of both without compromising big time on medivac count.
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Great idea!
@Terrans, storm does 75 dmg over time, and terran has medivacs, whereas emp does 100 dmg to shields instantly, with no quick/instant heal (eg. medivacs or shield batteries), also, vikings are very good vs. collosus and carriers (but whoever suggests that as a counter is retarded), so the protoss is almost forced into templar tech, unless they have super gosu micro...
Also, storm + khydarin amulet takes forever to build, but you can tech to ghosts very easily (more easily than templars atleast)
I think a slight range buff on feedback so that it can outrange emp, but not snipe like OP suggested is a really good idea.
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I really like this idea, but then I think that Terran would need a buff to their lategame versus Toss (which is already true, but this would make it even moreso, because it would be harder for them to cripple the Toss early). Perhaps a Battlecruiser change or a large buff to Ravens' Seeker Missile at the cost of being moved back to the Fusion Core would make this work?
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tvp is already in favor of P. And templars already are insanely strong, no reason to buff them.
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Ghosts and Ravens will probably both be nerfed when Terrans get better. It doesn't really make sense for the Ghost to have longer range, be faster, have cloak and have such a large instant AoE. Right now so many Protoss are going heavy Colossus that Terran are spending most of their gas on Vikings until later in the game. I think we will see more Speedlot/Immortal in the future since mass Colossus can be pretty easily countered by Marauder/Viking. Once that happens expect to see more Ghosts and then it will be more evident how powerful they are.
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Right now, the PvT metagame does not seem to suffer from obvious balance issue. If you buff the feedback range, then something from Terran must be buffed as well.
Let's not forget that even emp'ed templar can morph into archon on the battlefield, which is an instantaneously generated 370 hp meat shield for your battle units including the colossus while a ghost suffering a feedback = a dead ghost.
A good Protoss player would spread out the templars instead of clustering into a giant ball. I don't see the problem.
As far as the PvT metagame goes, atm, due to tank nerf, marine marauder ghost, viking and medivac is the only way to play it. Protoss has two hard counters to terran bio, viking solves colossus while ghost somewhat solves templar. If ghost no longer counter templar, but the other way around, I see a problem here.
Also, while you are asking for a feedback range buff against ghost, you do realize that would affect the effectiveness of medivac and raven as well?
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Coming from a zerg player, I think increasing HTs range would make ghost vs HT's much more entertaining to watch. However from what I have seen PvT lategame isn't scewed in the terrans' favor.
So I do agree with the OP, however I think terran would need some changes for their lategame viability against toss if this was implemented.
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but feedback counters far more than just ghosts, its borderline OP in PvT as is.
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EMP and feedback are 2 different spells.. why on earth are they "supposed" to have the same range
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@ OP
So u think the gohst should equal the HT, u would do this by changing ranges as u said so EMP=storm and snipe=feed back
But this doesn't make the gohst=HT, gohst cost allot more, and T tend to have less bases and therefore a a lower gass income, its harder to get a gohst to the battle field than a HT coz it has to walk, HT can turn into arcons, yes gohst can still shoot but its really not all that good.
And why do unit have to be the same to be balnced, they kinda dont. Thats why there are three races and just 1 boring race called protoss
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I think its very weird to still see people saying "but emp doesn't do damage" - what about ALL the shields it drains from the protoss units? How is that not damage lol.
Ghosts are way too powerful against protoss early-mid game before templars come. Theres nothing majority of protoss players can even do to stop an early bio ball with a ghost or two mixed in. One scan to get high ground vision, EMP the sentries, and its pretty much GG on a small map.
Its obvious terrans dominate protoss early game, but as the game progresses it will gradually favor the protoss more and more. Even though the win rates might be close to 50/50%, thats still not exactly a 'balanced' matchup. Terrans shouldn't have to win within the first 10 minutes in order to have the best chances to win. On the other hand, protoss shouldn't lose (pretty much automatically) if they fail to make the perfect forcefield at their ramp early game either. Buff some late game terran units but make EMP a researched ability.
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On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more.
I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range.
Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units.
Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed.
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On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed.
Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2.
However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
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On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
I never suggested that hellions should be used. Granted they could be, i agree that the cost effectiveness is hard to compare and probably is harder to acheive in sc2.
My point is that, p's in bw, found a solution to this, use shuttles. Most of the SC2 community already agrees that warp prisms are underused, this is just another reason why to incorporate them into your mid-late game armies.
As a random player, it just irks when when 1/3 of alot of tl posts are people forcing the game to adjust the game to make it easier for their respective races instead of practicing more and trying to find sensible solutions.
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With ghosts, you need to predict the the position of the HTs, then hit the edge of the emp on the HTs, and then make sure there aren't 30 more that are in the back or have just been warped in.
Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function
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Really? Both spells are very powerful and completely fine.
Seems like another "nerf this because I lost" thread.
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On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though.
Erm...hellions and vultures are equally mobile. The only difference is that vultures are better at kiting. I'm also pretty damn sure dragoons shred vultures that approach the Protoss death ball a helluva lot faster than stalkers do to hellions.
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On October 23 2010 09:37 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 09:14 zbedlam wrote:On October 23 2010 09:10 zomgtossrush wrote:On October 23 2010 04:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2010 03:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
why do terrans refuse to use ghosts?
Only the bad ones refuse to use ghosts because they'd rather just 1at their way to victory. In all seriousness, the OP's suggestion seems pretty valid to me, but tbh even with the whole Ghost>HT issue I'm still really not having that much trouble against it. As long as I have obs scouting for cloaked ghosts and I spread my HTs well it's really not a problem. Having a warp prism or proxy pylon helps too so in the case all your HTs are EMP'd you can just warp in some more. I agree. I really don't think there is any problem between this direct unit to unit balance. Unless people have 500 apm and can constantly watch their units to take advantage of +X range. Another issue is that back in that old game called Starcraft 1, terrans vultures sniped HT in the mid-late game, this forced p's to keep their templars in shuttles, or micro an babysit their units. Why can't players focus on doing smart things like that instead of trying to convince ppl the game needs to be changed. Vultures were far more mobile than the protoss's main army in BW. This is not the case in sc2, if hellions get too close to the protoss's death ball stalkers will shred them. The kind of smart play that was encouraged in brood war isn't really encouraged in sc2. However saying that, I have seen someone use ghosts to stalk the protoss army and EMP/snipe stray templar. I think it was TLO in one of his beta games, not sure about that though. Erm...hellions and vultures are equally mobile. The only difference is that vultures are better at kiting. I'm also pretty damn sure dragoons shred vultures that approach the Protoss death ball a helluva lot faster than stalkers do to hellions.
The problem is that vultures are far more versatile than hellions. Due to the way BW metagame works, you are bound to have excessive number of vulture that you can use to snipe templar. Hellions don't have mines, they are 25 minerals more expensive and they don't counter Protoss shields like vulture did in BW. Protoss can warp templar directly onto the battlefield with warpgate with 75 energy.
It's just not the same thing. Not to mention tanks are next to useless in TvP now.
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use a warp prism to protect ur templar from getting emp, then drop and storm
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Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function
We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =)
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Just a random question, will EMP hit templars as they warp in?
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Well... I think that feedback is strong enough as it is. You can't determine the balance between emp and feedback by comparing the ghost and templar because the interaction between the two units is a small fraction of the utilization of these units.
Yeah, the ghost can emp the templar before the templar can feedback the ghost, but the templar can also feedback ravens, medivacs, battlecruisers and banshee's.
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On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =)
Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT.
But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd.
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On October 23 2010 11:20 VanGarde wrote:
Yeah, the ghost can emp the templar before the templar can feedback the ghost, but the templar can also feedback ravens, medivacs, battlecruisers and banshee's.
Not sure what the point of listing the units templar can feedback on is for when ghost's EMP affects every single protoss unit lol =p
But I don't think protoss/terran players will ever agree on the ghost balance debate haha.
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Why would you waste energy and effort to feedback ghosts? why don't you just drop 2 storms on the bioball and completely destroy it...EMP becomes irrelevant then.
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On October 23 2010 03:54 Dfgj wrote:
Personally I feel EMP needs to be stronger than FB just because of how easy it is to replenish storms via warpin with the amulet upgrade.
Really? EMP needs to be stronger when it costs half as much?
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its balanced, stop crying.
if theres any change to be made in pvt I would make observers and ravens 50 gas cheaper
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Watching Pro games 80% of the time getting storm with amulet means win.....
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Ya I think if emp were to be worsened (?), the matchup would be quite broken. Its hard enough having to go bio in this matchup, but now there would be no counter to the strongest (or colosi) response to bio if emp is nerfed So, ya, no i dont agree.
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On October 23 2010 11:38 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =) Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT. But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd.
haha yeah I know, I said that just for fun because I know players of both races will never agree on it anyways lol.
well as for getting stormed being worse than EMP, I personally don't agree, while both are strong, storm you can move out and dodge at least part of the effects - EMP is instant damage while draining all mana of spellcasters. but i guess it depends on the juncture of the game.
one thing that bothers me though, is that people always make it sound like you can warp in an unlimited amount of templars, amulet research or not, it costs 150 gas PER high templar - that is a crap load of gas. not to mention how long it takes to actually get to the templar tech with psi storm AND amulet researched.
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On October 23 2010 12:05 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 11:38 Bagi wrote:On October 23 2010 11:17 Zealot Lord wrote:Trust me, protosses have it easier with the HT cost and warpin function We should have a poll to see whether the majority thinks ghosts are easier to use or high templars in PvT! =) Protoss players will say ghost, terrans will say HT. But you cant look at which unit is "easier to use" alone, you have to look at how these units impact the game. I'd say getting stormed is alot worse than getting EMP'd. haha yeah I know, I said that just for fun because I know players of both races will never agree on it anyways lol. well as for getting stormed being worse than EMP, I personally don't agree, while both are strong, storm you can move out and dodge at least part of the effects - EMP is instant damage while draining all mana of spellcasters. but i guess it depends on the juncture of the game. one thing that bothers me though, is that people always make it sound like you can warp in an unlimited amount of templars, amulet research or not, it costs 150 gas PER high templar - that is a crap load of gas. not to mention how long it takes to actually get to the templar tech with psi storm AND amulet researched.
It also depends whether Protoss is aggressive or defensive. If Protoss is aggressive, he could retreat a little without being chased if possible. Regenerate shields which are much faster now and then come back. Otherwise, it depends on ur initial army placement.
Storm does permanent damage that must be healed by medivacs, thus they also drain energy as an additional function. Templars certainly cost more to get tech but it is easier to sustain upon reaching that tech. Time and distance is also a resource. Protoss is meant to resupply faster than Terran (while Zerg resupplies faster than Protoss) So, you can make more Templars faster than a Terran can make ghosts and be immediately battle effective thanks to warp in. Additionally, it also costs 150 gas PER Ghost, hence gas costs are not considered by my part.
Both units have different ways of being supportive, thus both have their edge and weaknesses. I believe its difficult without preparation such as scans for Terran to move in and EMP effectively against a good spread of HTs and with observers. Ghosts too need their upgrades such as the Moebius Reactor that is like the Terran Khaydarin Amulet. Cloak too will be needed for EMP in the late game but good observer placement can counter that.
Hence, there are both pros and cons to both sides. It now depends highly on user control.
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ghosts are realy easy to tech arent they? but for a useful ht u need to research 200/200 and then for it to be effective u need 150/100 i believe.
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And ? they are different races, why do you think they should have the same ?
Play the game.
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i dont know why people keep bringing up that it takes 150gas to warp in high temps. ghosts also require 150gas as well as 150 minerals for your 50min150gas. granted ghosts can be teched much faster, but it also causes terran to not get early medivacs for drop play which i believe is the more general threat to toss in the early-mid game scenerio. toss isnt the only race that requires massive amounts of vespine to be effective
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getting emp'd sucks, but getting stormed sucks a whole lot more. at least emp has one good thing going for it.
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On October 23 2010 11:40 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 11:20 VanGarde wrote:
Yeah, the ghost can emp the templar before the templar can feedback the ghost, but the templar can also feedback ravens, medivacs, battlecruisers and banshee's. Not sure what the point of listing the units templar can feedback on is for when ghost's EMP affects every single protoss unit lol =p But I don't think protoss/terran players will ever agree on the ghost balance debate haha.
Yeah, so does storm. You are missing an important distinction. You need to make a difference between emp to drain energy and emp to take away shields. Because it is essentially two abilities in one whereas the templar has it separated into storm and feedback.
Protoss has three units that can be drained of energy by emp (not counting the mothership) and then every unit can take "damage" from the emp. Terran has 5 units (80% of the air units) which can be feedbacked and drained of emp+dealt damage and then every unit can take damage from storm.
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And also people forget storm and feedback actually KILL units, while EMP just reduce shields and you can do it just one time, no matter how many EMPs you throw, you won't kill them (not bad, of course, it's awesome against toss, but they are different).
Also, they are different races, with different units, mechs and synergys between the units. Asking for the same is plainly retarded.
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I think everyone has forgotten EMP is supposed to counter HT's. Complaining about emp vs storms is like complaining about how storm rapes bio.
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On October 23 2010 13:00 ibreakurface wrote:
I think everyone has forgotten EMP is supposed to counter HT's. Complaining about emp vs storms is like complaining about how storm rapes bio.
some people are just bad at the game and want the easy mode for everything....
look how he take screen shot of command center SCANS too ... the scans got no reason to be here... other that make people think the way he want .
for reply to the op : okay we trade the fix but emp should AUTO kill templar... not just remove energy but kill them.. templar kill my ghost when they storm ... you want everything fair and balanced right?
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EMP is fine as is.
Sorry but OP has wrong arguments; keep in mind that ghost don't do insane amount of dmg and HT's psionic storm has radius too.
Also that u can't miss with feedback, but with emps, u surely can miss with good P micro.
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Why does there need to be a parity between the units unless you are planning on going toe to toe? It's all about positioning and if you happen to get your templar emp cause you move them in front of other units then that's more your fault then the games, no?
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You can't REALLY compare the abilities. Feedback is cheaper from a higher tier unit and does damage based on Mana. EMP does consistent damage to shields and takes away all mana in an AoE for a high cost on a somewhat lower tier caster. (Depending how you define the tiers, of course.) Feedback, to me, is the more versatile/useful ability.
EDIT: Also of note: While Templar are higher in the tree, ghosts cost more (by one hundred minerals). Templar are also warped in faster.
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What I really hate is that the Terran can click basically anywhere on the Protoss army and EMP a good majority of the units because EMP is AoE. Feedback on the other hand is SO much harder to pull off versus a ghost. 1) It's hard to even find the ghost in a ball of infantry and 2) you have to actually click on the ghost. It's kind of unfair since they are very similar spells.
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On October 23 2010 13:17 LuciferSC wrote:
EMP is fine as is.
Sorry but OP has wrong arguments; keep in mind that ghost don't do insane amount of dmg and HT's psionic storm has radius too.
Also that u can't miss with feedback, but with emps, u surely can miss with good P micro.
It's very easy to miss ghosts with the feedback. Sure, it won't waste the 50 energy when you misclick on a marine or something, but by that point the protoss has probably already been EMP'd.
It's pretty easy for a terran to paint an EMP in the general direction of the slow-moving, floating gold guy with bright blue after-images compared to the protoss trying to click directly on the one marine in the grey jumpsuit and goggles.
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not even progamers can avoid their templars getting emped. thats fact. and every 1200 diamond player, that says, split your templars just doesnt know how hard/ impossible it is.
if emp had lower range, templars would be the ideal counter to bio. just look at a terran, that doesnt have ghost micro. he will just get demolished. this would be bad, if the terrans didnt get an option buffed like.....oh yeah, THORS. would make the game more exciting, if the terran needed to switch to heavy mech. i even have a replay somewhere in my folder, that shows the perfect emp. and by perfect i really mean perfect like, scanned and the emp was placed so brilliantly, that the player hasnt even seen the ghost. btw, this game was between korean progamers. he even spread out his templar, but the terran just did this to everyone. and marauders dont die to one storm, so even warping in a couple templars, the terran can easily dodge, retreat and reapeat.
feedbacking works, if both armies are running towards each other. because the feedback can just be casted on a ghost (lets assume hes not under a medivac/banshee/thor/viking) and triggers the instant the ghost is in range. emp needs some more micro to place and if both casters are moving, the range-difference is almost nullified, because emp will not be casted instantly and the units will come closer during this period
though ghost-micro shouldnt be that big of a deal, given smartcast and scan.
fact is, that emp has a optimum range of 12 and feedback of 9. so every protoss using templars, just hopes, that his terran opponent has not enough micro. you cannot deny, that if a terran has perfect ghost micro, he will easily crush any protoss using templars.
i experimented also with warpprisms, but they are just too slow unloading, moving and transforming. and they are weak as hell.
i also find it pretty unfair, that protoss, needs to flank, use multiple casters, warpprisms and spread out their units, to win vs a one-ball terran.
i dont say, the matchup is imbalanced, because of that, (still is, but for other reasons) just that collossi is a way better choice than templars, though i still want to see a terran, that uses viking/raven ambushes, to decimate the collossus count.
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On October 23 2010 16:02 ensis wrote:
not even progamers can avoid their templars getting emped. thats fact. and every 1200 diamond player, that says, split your templars just doesnt know how hard/ impossible it is.
i experimented also with warpprisms, but they are just too slow unloading, moving and transforming. and they are weak as hell.
i also find it pretty unfair, that protoss, needs to flank, use multiple casters, warpprisms and spread out their units, to win vs a one-ball terran.
1. how hard is it to split your army? Remember bw with 12 units per control group?
2. Describe experimenting. I havn't used them myself, but i can't imagine them being less effective than bw shuttles. Weak as hell? What does that mean?
3. Unfair? Try playing zerg when you have to flank. OR sc1 PvT. Or just being a good sc2 player.
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Their are ways to slightly decrease the effectiveness of EMP but overall EMP is too strong and needs a nerf. I think the main reason it hasn't been nerfed is Terran has been OP for so long they haven't needed it. With the current drop nerfs this might be the time.
Another factor is Protoss goes Colossus for a reason, HT just isn't effective. Not only do you NEED robo just b/c of cloaked banshees but also if a PF goes up on the third zealot/Templar can't take it down. Gateway is just garbage versus marauder and HT take too long to get storm. Stargate lol.
Robo gives detection, scouting, a strong unit versus marauders to transition to colossus (if necessary) and allows you to adapt easier or transition to the other tech trees.
Templar gives... storm at a late point with a huge gas req, DT's require a seperate building.
I haven't seen a single game in the GSL or anything I have watched where PvT Toss opens with templar. If you can show me a top Protoss who uses Templar I'd love to see it as I don't like forced robo play. The few times I see storm is when banshee/rine force it.
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United States22883 Posts
Sorry, I know you put a lot of work into it but we don't allow balance threads in the SC2 forums. We want threads to reflect the way the game is, not the way each person wants it to be.
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EPT
