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do you know what it is? it's the rating system between BW and SC2. i'm not kidding you. for example:
in BroodWar:
- you worked hard, actually "practicing" build orders over an over again, using a stopwatch to optimize your timings and speed, finding partners willing to do the same matchup with the same strategy over and over again. you analyze your own replays, particularly the ones that you lost despite how frustrating it is. you memorize the entirety of liquipedia including other race's build orders and timings to understand the matchups better.
- finally after 6 months you get promoted to D+. after a few more weeks you finally get a shiny yellow C-. you think you are good but you realize there are a thousand koreans that are B and above that is unreachable for you, not to mention the fact that there is an entire proscene that is unreachable for the aforementioned koreans. you are humbled.
- your friends ask you what rank you are in iccup. you say C-. they laugh at how bad you are. you are humbled.
in Starcraft 2:
- you played 5 placement matches and ezpk'd them all. you get placed into Platinum and quickly get promoted to Diamond in 1 day despite not knowing how to macro or any of the build orders. luckily for you, your opponents are even worse.
- you are placed in a new division and bonus pool lets you climb the ladder and get to a point where you are "mid-high diamond". you climbed 100 points in 1 day, extrapolate that you can climb 1000 points in 10 days, 2000 points in 20 days. you think you will be on top of ladder in no time at all. you are not humbled.
- your casual copper RL friends ask you what rank you are. you say "TOP 10 DIAMOND DIVISION". they are impressed. you are not humbled.
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Well I don't visit the strat forum, so why is this here called "Hey Listen!" in general?
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I'm glad somebody said it. Because really, this needs to be heard.
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On October 26 2010 19:23 redtooth wrote:- your casual copper RL friends ask you what rank you are. you say "TOP 10 DIAMOND DIVISION". they are impressed. you are not humbled.
omfg i hate that lol, so true
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Croatia9530 Posts
Really excellent post.
But the biggest problem here are definitely the new users who are not yet accustomed to the TL's forum etiquette. Actually, they're not accustomed a forum having an etiquette to begin with. Coming from the deepest parts of the internet they're not used to the reading before posting. So "Hey listen!" is kinda ironic title because most users that post garbage in SC2 forums, don't actually listen!
Luckily there's an easy (a lot of work though) fix for this: - TL's way or the highway!
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On October 26 2010 19:23 redtooth wrote:
do you know what it is? it's the rating system between BW and SC2. i'm not kidding you. for example:
in BroodWar:
- your friends ask you what rank you are in iccup. you say C-. they laugh at how bad you are. you are humbled.
<snip>
in Starcraft 2:
- your casual copper RL friends ask you what rank you are. you say "TOP 10 DIAMOND DIVISION". they are impressed. you are not humbled.
Haha awesome post that had me laughing for a good solid minute! This might actually have a lot to do with things.
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Well thought out and written. Every word of this is true and will hopefully be taken to heart by many.
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All so true. Unfortunately the majority of people who could do with reading and taking heed of this post, just won't.
The burden still rests on the shoulders of the mods. That's all there is until the morons leave because they realise that they actually suck/get bored or actually turn into nice, helpful, astute members of the community.
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The surge of all the imbalance QQ threads, blogs and comments in every other thread after each patch is really ruining the experience on TL.net for me. If it's not Zerg whining it's Terran being bitches, seriously agree with you.
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Maybe if everyone started posting the link to this article every time someone posted something about imbalance we can put a stop to this insanity.
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Thank you I think this kind of post is needet from time to time to let people know what's the spirit of Team Liquid is I agree that some posts are just about complaining.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2010 19:23 redtooth wrote:
do you know what it is? it's the rating system between BW and SC2. i'm not kidding you. for example:
in BroodWar:
- you worked hard, actually "practicing" build orders over an over again, using a stopwatch to optimize your timings and speed, finding partners willing to do the same matchup with the same strategy over and over again. you analyze your own replays, particularly the ones that you lost despite how frustrating it is. you memorize the entirety of liquipedia including other race's build orders and timings to understand the matchups better.
- finally after 6 months you get promoted to D+. after a few more weeks you finally get a shiny yellow C-. you think you are good but you realize there are a thousand koreans that are B and above that is unreachable for you, not to mention the fact that there is an entire proscene that is unreachable for the aforementioned koreans. you are humbled.
- your friends ask you what rank you are in iccup. you say C-. they laugh at how bad you are. you are humbled.
in Starcraft 2:
- you played 5 placement matches and ezpk'd them all. you get placed into Platinum and quickly get promoted to Diamond in 1 day despite not knowing how to macro or any of the build orders. luckily for you, your opponents are even worse.
- you are placed in a new division and bonus pool lets you climb the ladder and get to a point where you are "mid-high diamond". you climbed 100 points in 1 day, extrapolate that you can climb 1000 points in 10 days, 2000 points in 20 days. you think you will be on top of ladder in no time at all. you are not humbled.
- your casual copper RL friends ask you what rank you are. you say "TOP 10 DIAMOND DIVISION". they are impressed. you are not humbled.
Soooo true. Right on the money. Nice post.
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I don't know, vomiting rainbows gives me the impression you are dispensing irreplaceable knowledge.
only thing better than that would be vomiting double rainbow omg
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On October 25 2010 14:12 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Go search for sc2 strategy posts by plexa, or those that have been spotlighted - they're the examples that you should be looking at. The KCDC one is another great one - that exact build was used by nexgenius for a bunch of his games. Super fragile, super greedy, but it works.
Thanks for the heads up, I really like the glossary section on Liquipedia and would suggest that expanding this to include more terms that are seen on the forums would make it even more valuable for the beginner, also a more accessible link to the glossary section would increase its use I think, and make the language used on these boards a less daunting code to break.
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Estonia4504 Posts
Bringing the melancholy of YellOw into this is low. 
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Well, there are reasons why people complain about SC2 more. In BW, you can always look at your replay and point out flaws. You didn't make probes non stop, you got supply stuck at one point, you forgot to macro, you ran into mines.
In SC2 it's different, you can't find these flaws in decent players. They make workers and units nonstop, they don't get supply blocked as often, and everyone can spend their money because the game is so easy mechanically. Players will look at their replay and see that they made no mistakes and they only lost because they weren't able to see what their opponent is doing. That's why some people blame imbalance, it's because they can't see their mistakes.
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On October 26 2010 19:05 shinarit wrote:
"So what if, certain races are harder to play?"
What? Well, that means its not balanced.
This is totally false. A race can absolutely be harder to play but have certain unique strenghts when applied correctly. There are so so many factors to balance beyond whether a race is "hard" to play.
If a race is hard to play because it simply can't compete with the other races, then yes ... there's a balance issue. But saying a race is hard to play is not indicative of imbalance in any way.
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On October 26 2010 23:13 T.O.P. wrote:
Well, there are reasons why people complain about SC2 more. In BW, you can always look at your replay and point out flaws. You didn't make probes non stop, you got supply stuck at one point, you forgot to macro, you ran into mines.
In SC2 it's different, you can't find these flaws in decent players. They make workers and units nonstop, they don't get supply blocked as often, and everyone can spend their money because the game is so easy mechanically. Players will look at their replay and see that they made no mistakes and they only lost because they weren't able to see what their opponent is doing. That's why some people blame imbalance, it's because they can't see their mistakes.
Mistakes go way beyond supplyblocking themselves. I see alot of people at the pro level lose matches because they fell off on their macro during harassment, they made the wrong units, they didn't scout the opponents tech properly/soon enough etc. NO ONE plays perfect. No one.
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I think TL should have a rule.
If you talk about balance in a thread that is not specifically about balance, you get warned. If you do it twice, you get temp banned. Keep doing it, get permabanned. This applies to *any* thread that is not specifically about balance. So if your fav player in GSL goes down and you crap up the thread with "imba imba" bs, you get warned or banned. If someone makes a thread asking for help dealing with PFs in the start forum and you respond, "PFs are imba and Blizzard never should have put them in the game" you get warned or banned. If someone makes a random thread in the General forum about, I dunno, the differences in economy between the races and you respond, "Zerg are broken spwan larva is imba", you get warned or banned.
The ONLY place balance discussion should be allowed are threads that are specifically about balance to begin with. And the ONLY threads that are specifically about balance that should be allowed are:
Those made by pro level players. Not, "I'm a 1000 point diamond so when I lose its not my fault" players. I mean, if HuK or IdrA want to come on and make an informed argument relating to balance, I think that has some value.
or
Those that include some actual news or valuable insight. If someone has access to useful stats about difference racial matchups, for example. Or the thread that exists right now discussing the Blizzcon panel's comments on PvT balance. If there is some *actual* news as it relates to balance, that merits a thread.
And thats it. I don't think average or terribad (which includes the vast majority of diamond) players should make threads giving their opinions on balance. If they do, the threads should be closed right away.
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On October 26 2010 19:23 redtooth wrote:
do you know what it is? it's the rating system between BW and SC2. i'm not kidding you. for example:
in BroodWar:
- you worked hard, actually "practicing" build orders over an over again, using a stopwatch to optimize your timings and speed, finding partners willing to do the same matchup with the same strategy over and over again. you analyze your own replays, particularly the ones that you lost despite how frustrating it is. you memorize the entirety of liquipedia including other race's build orders and timings to understand the matchups better.
- finally after 6 months you get promoted to D+. after a few more weeks you finally get a shiny yellow C-. you think you are good but you realize there are a thousand koreans that are B and above that is unreachable for you, not to mention the fact that there is an entire proscene that is unreachable for the aforementioned koreans. you are humbled.
- your friends ask you what rank you are in iccup. you say C-. they laugh at how bad you are. you are humbled.
in Starcraft 2:
- you played 5 placement matches and ezpk'd them all. you get placed into Platinum and quickly get promoted to Diamond in 1 day despite not knowing how to macro or any of the build orders. luckily for you, your opponents are even worse.
- you are placed in a new division and bonus pool lets you climb the ladder and get to a point where you are "mid-high diamond". you climbed 100 points in 1 day, extrapolate that you can climb 1000 points in 10 days, 2000 points in 20 days. you think you will be on top of ladder in no time at all. you are not humbled.
- your casual copper RL friends ask you what rank you are. you say "TOP 10 DIAMOND DIVISION". they are impressed. you are not humbled.
The root of all evil when it comes to balance discussion.
Player x and player y are high diamond and complain about imba. Suddenly a hole legion of noobs comes to back them up and it becomes impossible to have a coherent discussion from that point on, anything you'd say against that (imba claim) gets you crucified.
Top players are also guilty of this. Like i've told idra a few weeks ago, even him or other top players ARE NOT THAT GOOD at this game, not yet. There is a lot still to be learned.
Good post redtooth, indeed, no one wants to be humble at this point, it is easier to whine and be disrespectful.
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EPT
