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On October 25 2010 15:22 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 14:16 Westy wrote:On October 25 2010 13:50 Charger wrote:On October 25 2010 13:23 Westy wrote:On October 25 2010 04:19 mahnini wrote:
Imbalance doesn't mean something is harder to do than something else, imbalance means something is impossible to do. Wrong Wrong Wrong WRONG!Imbalance means... exactly what it means! In other words, the odds are stacked in someones favour... If two counter tactics (For example, emp bio vs chargelots + storms) have a MASSIVE difference in difficulty to execute (Which they do, emping a bunch of HT's is much easier than trying to storm a constantly moving stimmed bioball with medivacs) then there is an Imbalance. One side has the odds stacked against them. However, when discussing balance you always have to remember difference in skill. For a pro player, there won't be an imbalance there. When you have the ability individually control each templar and keep them at distance from each other, and can always have one eye on the minimap to see when that sneaky ghost starts moving towards your bunch of units, then you are beyond the imbalance. But you have to remember, Starcraft 2 is a game that blizzard want to be enjoyable for ALL skill levels of players. So just because it is possible to beat emp bio balls with HT's, does not mean it is balanced. (P.S. Before someone (And theres always someone) reads this and bursts a blood vessel due to anger at my incompetence, just remember that everything in this post is opinion based, so I am just as much wrong as I am right.) (P.P.S But I'm never wrong  ) Just because strategy X is easier to execute compared to Y doesn't make it imbalanced. There are probably hundreds of scenarios where this applies, to every race. For example, it is easier for toss to reinforce in battle by using warpgates compared to terran having to wait for units to build and make their way to the battle. Is reinforcing easier for toss? I think so. But that doesn't mean anything about that situation is imbalanced. It means that it is a unique, inherent benefit to playing toss. Every race has that. This is the type of post I think the OP was talking about. Just because something may be harder to do (as in your example), doesn't mean anything is imbalanced. It means work on your micro to execute the strategy YOU PICKED. You could have used colossus and/or immortals + gateway units and done pretty well too. And that army composition requires significantly less micro to be effective compared to chargelots and HT. Also, I know my micro lacks; so while I work on that outside of ladder games, I base my build and choose units that I can control properly and don't require a lot of micro. There is nothing wrong with using different, less micro intensive units if your micro isn't good enough to execute that particular strategy. You have two options in your original example: 1. Get better with that unit composition or 2. Use different units. I know for a fact, chargelots + storm isn't the only way to beat bio + emp. If you KNOW the pros can do it and it works and that is the strategy that you want to use, then practice until you can use it right. Otherwise, do something different. See, you have once again made the common mistake. "Because you can beat this strategy the game is balanced" Is basically the summary of what you just said. If this is the case, then there has never been an imbalance in the entire history of RTS gaming. Now wouldn't that be something! And once again you have gone too, "Well you lost because you weren't good enough to do this and that". But your forgetting, battle net puts players of equal skill against one another. So when constantly you have emp bioballs just absolutely hammering HT's and chargelots (Which are counter builds, as in they should be an even match in a fight). Then there is an imbalance, and that imbalance comes in the form of the emp. One good EMP = GG, 5 good storms = Probably (But not always) gg. But please, your getting off from my original point. I was just pointing out that the OPs original post about how Imbalance means that a strategy is impossible to beat is clearly wrong, as since SC2 has been released there has not been a single strategy that has been impossible to beat. Yet even Blizzard have mention parts of their game is imbalanced (And then fixed it). Oh and about the protoss reinforcing thing, i have played Both P and T full time, and i feel reinforcing as terran is the easiest out of all races. Looking away from the battle to find the closest pylon and then warping things in is a pain in the ass! Where as just rallying your barracks to your army and being able to produce units without looking away from the battle makes micro management a lot easier. But once again, its all opinions! imbalanced skill level is something a lot of people bring up and something i see as nearly completely arbitrary. there are different kinds of skill who's to say one is more important than the other? to some extent i agree though, if something is extremely difficult to deal with, let's say marauders still had conc by default, then obviously something needs to be looked into. when we look at imbalance we should be looking at the very, very best players, no body on this forum is a very, very best player so when i see players floating 1400 diamond that complain about skill imbalance it makes my head spin.
Blizzard recently nerfed the voidrays. Let's say the reason for this was based on the bronze league tvp win rate. In games in the bronze league the toss player would build voidrays and the terran player would be building marines. But everytime a certain number of rines and rays came out both players get supply blocked to where the buildtime of both units is esentially the same. This would make the ratio of rays to rines be alot smaller than it would need to be. On top of that the money from both players is very high because the terran is queing up rines at a a single reactor rax and the toss is using a single stargate. Now a battle ensues between the rays and the marines and 10 rays beat the 14 marines that are there.
Blizzard sees this, "O voidrays are OP in the bronze league we should nerf them"
A better way to fix these so called void rays than doing a balance change would be to introduce something to the challenges where they taught you the fundamentals of sc such as: always building workers, keeping money low, not queing, and not getting supply blocked.
+ Show Spoiler +I'll keep my actual opinion on the ray to myself. As it doesn't really matter whether I agree with the nerf or not as it has already happened. Just an example to kind help fortify mahnini's quote. Nor am I saying this is the reason the ray was nerfed there could be a logical explanation for it but it is irrelevant now nonetheless
+ Show Spoiler +Also the idea for teaching fundamentals to newer players is not my idea. I believe it was InControl but I can't remember where I heard it from.
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This thread should be stickied , and more importantly imported to every single xx,battle,net forum, as the whiners are more likely to be whining there rather than TL.
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Australia2363 Posts
Oh my god, thank you for this.
I can't count the number of times people have adopted the tone of "I lost, WTF am I supposed to do OP BS." instead of "I lost, where did I go wrong?"
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Thanks for the great OP, it really is annoying sometimes to read the whine of so many people.
On the other hand, the players who constantly see the reason for losing a game in imbalance will most possibly never be able to improve their level of game. Thus, the complaining people are (or tend to be) in lower skill regions, and the one who seek the mistakes in their own play tend to be in the upper levels.
Haters gonna hate =)
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I agree with you to some point. But imbalance doesnt mean its IMPOSSIBLE. Imblance just means its not balanced. I would also want to say that if something is equaly strong but not as easy to exectue, I would argue that this is "imbalance".
Other than that I completley agree with you, dont blame the game if you are stuck on a certain "level", it wont help you get better the slightest.
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i've been saying this in almost all of my posts where the discussion implied this
i remember about beta, when people complained about sc2 not being a sc:bw clone
thanks for the OP, this should be stickied somewhere and there should be an 11th law when you join TeamLiquid.net :
"Thou shall not whine"
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This whine has been annoying me for quite some time now. I'm quite a bad player myself. Learn to watch replays and improve.
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this should be stickied
because i have seen this discussion happen many times before
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Totally agree with the OP. Very well put. I remember when I first joined TL because me and my friend started following BW because we heard about Bisu owning Savior, I thought this site was so harsh and overmoderated. But at the same time I loved that part of TL, becaues it had much less of whiners and BM'ers than most other sites. And if there were ever trolls they were often clever so you could kind of just laugh at it.
I would really like TL to be much harder moderated than it is now. Stop with the warnings when people BM, troll, make bad posts and just ban them for 2 days at once. Most of the new guys that make terrible posts here I think just laughs at the warnings.
I would so hope SC2 would turn into something like BW is and TL is the place where it should start 
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Even me as a new player agree on this so much, and I think many people here misses the point. The game might not be balanced, and thoose imballances might be good to discuss, but keep it separate from strategies!
Don't go into SC2 strategy forum and moan about how you lost to "imbalanced" units, go there and discuss how to overcome thoose untis, without voicing your own biased opinion about "balance". I remember how in the beginning of GSL1 they interviewed one of the players and asked what his opinion was on balance (this was at the same time as the biggest whine-fest at b-net forums) and he just said that imbalance did not matter that much, it was still possible to win and his job was to win and if he would lose it was down to him and not because of balance.
Or something like that... Just stuck with me as a really nice attitude to have and so completely different from what you read on forums.
*edit* And I also support harder moderating!
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Really amazing post, everyone should read this and the standard on the forum will become soo much higher. Im tired of everyone going "i did [insert random opening build] and he did [the build that is supposedly OP] and crushed me. i dont have a replay but blizz rly needs to nerf it!"
And then then everyone jumps the bandwagon and 20 pages of nonsense QQ follows.
Before you post critizise you play, check replays and post them so everyone else can see if you are the problem or the way your opponent plays really is unbeatable. You WILL find that you made misstakes. The build is not the problem, you are the one who lost the game, not the build. Sure some builds are better against other builds, and unless you are one of THE BEST in the world you could have won if you had better macro/micro/desicions/etc.
I sincerely hope your post will lead to a better community.
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I think a lot of this has to do with the way people had to be initiated into BW. When you jumped into BW, you had to lose about 20 games of 1v1 before you ever won a single one. That was a very humbling experience.
In SC2, with placement and auto matchmaking, which I love BTW, you don't survive that tribulation. I'm glad that the barrier to entry is not as big as it was, but that barrier definitely had an effect on people.
That and people think they are the bees knees if they're in Diamond. (Yeah, I said bees knees)
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Well, a lot of it also has to do with the fact that a lot of the top players bitch about imbalance as well, and when players see top guns constantly bitching about imbalance, then they will surely jump on the bandwagon because, like you said mahnini, it's easier to blame a loss on an overpowered strategy than to blame it on your own faults as a player.
It's the same outside of video games. People constantly blame their shitty situations on things being unfair, and nothing is ever "their fault." However, it's the people who shutup and do something about it in this world that lead successful and happy lives.
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On October 26 2010 18:23 Loophole wrote:
I think a lot of this has to do with the way people had to be initiated into BW. When you jumped into BW, you had to lose about 20 games of 1v1 before you ever won a single one. That was a very humbling experience.
In SC2, with placement and auto matchmaking, which I love BTW, you don't survive that tribulation. I'm glad that the barrier to entry is not as big as it was, but that barrier definitely had an effect on people.
That and people think they are the bees knees if they're in Diamond. (Yeah, I said bees knees)
You dare to criticise my 1500 ish diamond level skill? I have 50 APM! (So sad. But actually, so true.)
It is quite common for folks here on TL to say Diamonds "think" they are so uber and gosu, but as far as i am following these forums, most diamonds are pretty damn aware that there might be a little gap between being a 1500 or a 2,2k diamond player, with the 2,2k diamond players still not winning often vs. the real pros.
[sarcasm]
Have you seen FruitDealers baneling drops? Nerf Banes, zomg!!!
[/sarcasm]
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The more time goes by the more I think this thread should become sticky :<
There are so many bad threads popping all the time. "I played perfect and lost cause if imba" is the most common trap in the young mind.
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Omg. This kind of nostalgia and this amount of bullshit is rare to find. Its the typical clash of oldfag-newfag, but you do it wrong. Heres the main point which proves it:
"So what if, certain races are harder to play?"
What? Well, that means its not balanced. Its balanced, if same skill-leveled players (whatever this may mean) have equal chance to win, and only the circumstances decide (like their actual tiredness, noise, lag, placement etc.). In SC2 theres still room to call imbalance. I agree on that its done too much, sure. But you act like theres no imbalance, only noobs crying.
Btw solution is simple: dont open the QQ threads, they usually well-seen from title, and if not, can be closed fast after the first line. I know it works, i do it all the time i come to TL.
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Should make this a must-read for new users during registration
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Bottom line is that this is a forum on the internet and the quality of the posts here are not only the responsibility of the posters, but also the moderators. Saracen posted a similar topic awhile ago:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147045
and based on the responses I think the TL community is begging for the moderators to start being more active. The problem is that until you've been registered for a YEAR you cannot report posts which is completely rediculous considering the fact that TL.net is now focused on SC2 which is a game that has only been out for a few months. The SC2 people have no way to self-moderate which throws 100% of the workload on the moderators to individually find the trash posts themselves.
Instead of moderaters going to the Reported Posts lists and passing judgement (i.e. warning/banning the poster or warning/banning the person abusing the report post feature) they are expected to comb every post in every thread. It's simply not happening; the quality of the posts here (on average) has gone down tremedously since beta.
Let's be honest with ourselves: it's the internet and the retards are always going to outnumber the the logical people who put some thought into their posts. We have a great community here and I'm guessing that the moderation staff is doing the best they can with what they have. However with the current implimentation of the "Report Post" feature the community is powerless to help clean up the boards
TL admins please review your policy for members being able to Report Posts! We want to help you make these forums the best SC2 boards on the net.
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On October 25 2010 05:24 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 05:22 RoarMan wrote:On October 25 2010 05:20 mahnini wrote:
i'm glad so many people agree. Yea it'd be nice to start seeing some positive changes though, that's where it really counts I mean we can agree all we want but if the forums stay the same as it is, this whole thread is pointless. yeah, personally, i think i might've been too lenient when moderating sc2 strat. i'll definitely try to crackdown more. the forum doesn't actaully look bad now but that's because a bunch of threads just got closed
I am 100% for harsher moderation in the strat forum. I find it so frustrating trying to find useful information when each post of it is separated by 50 terran zerg imba posts.
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Thank you for this, you basically formulated my confused and meandering thoughts. Lets stop jumping to conclusions about faults with the game until we're confident there was nothing we could have done better, shall we?
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EPT
