So, new game came. New faces, rather new community. Old maphackers... I won't talk about people like Trek which hacked once, got caught and then started playing normally. I talk about the people who hacked during all the SCI career, like Hungtran, Selector, Executor, which get caught several times and still continued doing that, ruining a lot of tournaments and single games. People which never excused for doing that. Should our community give them a warm welcome for SCII? Can those guys be trusted? Because you know - Blizzard never cared about maphacks. It was during SCI all the time. I'm sure it will be during SCII. I am really interested in your opinion and ready for discussion.
Poll: Should we trust maphackers which were caught SEVERAL times during SC1?
No, we shouldn't. They got another chance already and still did same (552)
86%
Yes, we should. Everyone deserves another chance (88)
14%
640 total votes
Your vote: Should we trust maphackers which were caught SEVERAL times during SC1?
(Vote): Yes, we should. Everyone deserves another chance (Vote): No, we shouldn't. They got another chance already and still did same
On October 06 2010 03:16 Strelok wrote: So, new game came. New faces, rather new community. Old maphackers... I won't talk about people like Trek which hacked once, got caught and then started playing normally. I talk about the people who hacked during all the SCI career, like Hungtran or Executor, which get caught several times and still continued doing that, ruining a lot of tournaments and single games. People which never excused for doing that. Should our community give them a warm welcome for SCII? Can those guys be trusted? Because you know - Blizzard never cared about maphacks. It was during SCI all the time. I'm sure it will be during SCII. I am really interested in your opinion and ready for discussion.
There are a ton of known hackers/abusers playing right now, lastshadow comes to mind. Everyone gets a second chance, that's life. Thread will probably be closed.. soon.
You'd think that serial maphackers lost their credibility because of their untrustworthiness. They've been given second chances, and wasted them in favor of more hacks. Do those sorts of people deserve a clean slate for a game with the same potential for abuse as its predecessor? I would think not.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
explain this please. If a hacker constantly cheats, he's not going to suddenly stop cheating when a new game comes out -_-
When trust is destroyed, it takes a long time to get it back. Hackers should never be given a warm welcome, period. IMO I'll never 100% trust a proven hacker, but if they can go 1-2 years without hacking, then at that point maybe the trust-building can begin again.
On October 06 2010 03:20 superbabosheki wrote: There are a ton of known hackers/abusers playing right now, lastshadow comes to mind. Everyone gets a second chance, that's life. Thread will probably be closed.. soon.
nobody likes him. But a counter-example is DIMAGA, who is a proven abuser, yet everyone pretty much adores him.
Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change.
On October 06 2010 03:25 iG.ClouD wrote: Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change.
You don't need to martyr yourself to prove your point, you know.
On October 06 2010 03:25 iG.ClouD wrote: Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change.
I completely agree 100%. Those bastards should be banned for life. The detriment they cause this scene is insurmountable. We'd be better off if they had never existed in the first place.
Hacking seems to be a constant in multiplayer games. I think everyone will agree that hacks are detrimental to the overall gaming community as it: 1) Makes the game less fun 2) Makes the game less viable as a competitive sport
Why would you deserve a second chance if you at some point decided to hack?
I'm struggling to come up with a good answer to that question, but really, I can't find one. In the end I just can't trust someone who has hacked.
Problem is they aren't going to be using the same names.
Afaik Hungtran used many aliases in Brood War. Many hackers did.
Selector and Executor were the Los Reyes Del Mambo 2v2 wonder stars, right? Anyways... I think the people willing to use old aliases don't plan to hack. They have nothing to hide.
TT1 is a perfect example of this. We know who he is, we know what he did. He apologized, and didn't try to save face by creating a new alias. He stood there and took it like a horny cum-guzzling bitch and now that he survived the Teamliquid bukakke festival, everything is just in the world. But people who go the extra measure to purposefully use a different alias until they are signed onto a team and need to reveal their name, then hell can break loose.
This is situational though cause Spades didn't change his name (I believe it is the same guy) and I've always believed him to be shady as fuck. He did stop hacking in Brood War after being caught for a long period as I played a bunch of games with him, but personally until he posts more suave pictures I can't trust him.
(This is the part where someone posts that hilarious Spades picture from his sMi. days he used for various websites that gained amazing notoriety for him trying to be a mcballa holla son cause I can't find it).
If someone is referring to somebody who isn't a big name or a good player but has hacked their way into diamond or something, obviously they shouldnt be allowed, but if they've been clean for years and have proven themself at LAN's for several years to be clean, you'd think they should deserve a second chance.
This thread just made me think of LastShadow, although he was more into the map part and not the hacking. My god everything that dude does just makes me chuckle inside to no end.
Has anyone with a 'name' been caught hacking in sc2 yet? I wonder who the first to walk down the path of demons will be....
On October 06 2010 16:37 SCC-Faust wrote: Anyways... I think the people willing to use old aliases don't plan to hack. They have nothing to hide.
TT1 is a perfect example of this. We know who he is, we know what he did. He apologized, and didn't try to save face by creating a new alias. He stood there and took it like a horny cum-guzzling bitch and now that he survived the Teamliquid bukakke festival, everything is just in the world. But people who go the extra measure to purposefully use a different alias until they are signed onto a team and need to reveal their name, then hell can break loose.
That's a really good point you brought up which I hadn't though of.
Your example of a player that has hacked, admitted it and then provably played legit I would be completely willing to accept.
It may require some time and careful scrutiny, but yes, in such a case I think a second chance is okay.
But this doesn't happen very often does it? As you said, people tend to just hide behind another ID or something.
Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
And this might be a little hypocritical cuz I got banned for defending a friend caught hacking in a thread a few months ago lol. (well, banned for being a dick while doing so, same thing t-t)
But seriously, theirs a big difference between making homebrews and dicking around and cheating to get money and win tournaments.
Sorry, but Testie was caught hacking numerous of times it seem he got caught every patch until like 1.13. Yeah of course he didn't need it but he lied about hacking for years
People who just hack and hack over and over again cannot be trusted so please vote no people like hung / fleem
On October 06 2010 16:59 Vernom wrote: Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
Please don't tell me about lose, i had fun by playing offrace - protoss. But i was really raged to see - that hacker - i talk about Executor now - is back as nothing was happened. This guy runied a big number of competitons and even didn't excuse. That's why i flamed him in the beginning of the game by calling "retarded hacker", not in the end, where i didn't say a single word. And yes, right now - Walen, his manager in LRM ( i deleted the thing i wrote - because i have no proofs) - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
I don't know. I have no BW background but in Wc3 there were so many hackers it's no even funny. And most of them had the attitude to never stop doing so.
So you probably have to distinguish between players... which is problematic.
Hacking is just so damn retarded. I mean most of the hackers don't even feel like they got an unfair advantage out of it, it's ridiculous.
On October 06 2010 18:02 Strelok wrote: Walen, his manager in LRM, who knew about his hacks and always tried to get him to non-antihack server to play - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
and if that succeded, the biggest shitstorm would accure
On October 06 2010 18:13 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Hacking is just so damn retarded. I mean most of the hackers don't even feel like they got an unfair advantage out of it, it's ridiculous.
I guess one would have to lie to oneself to be able to hack. Because if hacks didn't provide an unfair advantage they would be pointless. xD
If someone told me that they hacked, and then told me that it didn't give them an unfair advantage, I would definitely question why they even use hacks if that's true.
Somewhat offtopic, playing enemy territory, occasionally you would encounter guys with aimbots etc. They would run around killing everything until the whole server ragequit.(or kick of course)
Hackers ruin games, they take away the gg.
Anyway, Im not big on forgiveness without contrition, but given they can just set up a new account under whatever name they want, Im not going to lose sleep on this
On October 06 2010 16:59 Vernom wrote: Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
Please don't tell me about lose, i had fun by playing offrace - protoss. But i was really raged to see - that hacker - i talk about Executor now - is back as nothing was happened. This guy runied a big number of competitons and even didn't excuse. That's why i flamed him in the beginning of the game by calling "retarded hacker", not in the end, where i didn't say a single word. And yes, right now - Walen, his manager in LRM, who knew about his hacks and always tried to get him to non-antihack server to play - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
Ask yourself a few questions please. Was there any reason to openly BM Executor in the game you were playing against him or was it just you raging over the past ? Did Executor hack the game you were playing when you insulted him ? Why didnt you refuse to play against a former hacker ? Why didnt you just kept your mouth shut and complained after the match ?
you behaved prematurely and deserve to get punished for it. I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past. By BM i mean insulting other players btw ^^.
On October 06 2010 18:43 MetalSlug wrote: I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past.
I disagree
normally (in reallife) there are authorities who take care of ppl who break the law/etc.; obviously this isn't the case in battle.net/sc2 since blizz doesn't really care about maphackers, they just randomly (temp-)ban the most obvious stuff once in a while
therefore since there is no "authority" to punish these kind of ppl, it's up to us to make them feel that they are not welcome in this game - in every possible manner
On October 06 2010 18:43 MetalSlug wrote: I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past.
therefore since there is no "authority" to punish these kind of ppl, it's up to us to make them feel that they are not welcome in this game - in every possible manner
Did they hack at SC2?
And a "lack" of punishment by the authority doesnt mean you can punish them because you dont like them.
On October 06 2010 16:59 Vernom wrote: Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
Please don't tell me about lose, i had fun by playing offrace - protoss. But i was really raged to see - that hacker - i talk about Executor now - is back as nothing was happened. This guy runied a big number of competitons and even didn't excuse. That's why i flamed him in the beginning of the game by calling "retarded hacker", not in the end, where i didn't say a single word. And yes, right now - Walen, his manager in LRM, who knew about his hacks and always tried to get him to non-antihack server to play - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
Ask yourself a few questions please. Was there any reason to openly BM Executor in the game you were playing against him or was it just you raging over the past ? Did Executor hack the game you were playing when you insulted him ? Why didnt you refuse to play against a former hacker ? Why didnt you just kept your mouth shut and complained after the match ?
you behaved prematurely and deserve to get punished for it. I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past. By BM i mean insulting other players btw ^^.
I don't this thread to become a topick about me against Executor, so i won't answer your question to give a new food for discussions.
Well if the guy is cheating at a "real" tournament, and repeats doing that, everyone will stop to trust this player, no matter what.
However, if the "cheat" is a MapHack just in normal games, who cares if they are willing to spend another "game key" doing that, it "somehow" supports the game aswell (strangely).
So the two extremes might be clever to seperate aswell instead of the black/white answers.
On October 06 2010 18:43 MetalSlug wrote: I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past.
I disagree
normally (in reallife) there are authorities who take care of ppl who break the law/etc.; obviously this isn't the case in battle.net/sc2 since blizz doesn't really care about maphackers, they just randomly (temp-)ban the most obvious stuff once in a while
therefore since there is no "authority" to punish these kind of ppl, it's up to us to make them feel that they are not welcome in this game - in every possible manner
He could have disagreed to play someone with a hacker reputation and everyone would have agreed with him but he choose to insult his opponent instead which is just plane wrong and premature.
I have another question: Should player who insult fellow players ingame be allowed to participate in tournaments ?
I truely hate hackers so I vote for NO. I hate everything about them, everything they represent in real life is for me disgusting. Yea its just a game tho. But the concept is the same for the BIG cheaters that you see on TV. Despicable human beings.
The likes of TT1 should still be hated. I find it disturbing that this .. guy (tryin to be polite) is somewhat rehabilitated..
Strelok mentioned the 'famous' German player Selector. Just to give you an impression of how a repeat offender behaves, here the history in short as far as I can remember it.
Selector was present in the (German) community for many years. He got caught _at least_ once every year. Every time he was caught, he would rally up his new found friends and use their reputation as shields, make them argue for his cause and claim to have tried hacking "just in this single game". After receiving a ban, he would smurf into a somewhat respected Clan and do it all over again. He even switched from Protoss to Terran just to disguise himself and it did not stop him from hacking. He got invited to ToT (one of the most important and respected BW Clans outside of SK), only because he knew Mondragon IRL. Mondi risked his reputation to help restore Selector's - soon he was caught hacking again.
IMO, repeat offenders should receive no welcome at all. Ban them as soon as you find out who they are. Selector might be the extreme, but every other repeat offender showed the same characteristics.
On October 06 2010 17:48 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: Sorry, but Testie was caught hacking numerous of times it seem he got caught every patch until like 1.13. Yeah of course he didn't need it but he lied about hacking for years
People who just hack and hack over and over again cannot be trusted so please vote no people like hung / fleem
Twice. Once by my own screen shot. A second time by Eriador. That's two. It was done in 2002.
On October 06 2010 17:48 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: Sorry, but Testie was caught hacking numerous of times it seem he got caught every patch until like 1.13. Yeah of course he didn't need it but he lied about hacking for years
People who just hack and hack over and over again cannot be trusted so please vote no people like hung / fleem
Twice. Once by my own screen shot. A second time by Eriador. That's two. It was done in 2002.
are you back for sc2 nick?
By the way just to stay on topic, i voted "NO" just because its so hard since so many famous players go caught and never mannered up.
On October 06 2010 17:48 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: Sorry, but Testie was caught hacking numerous of times it seem he got caught every patch until like 1.13. Yeah of course he didn't need it but he lied about hacking for years
People who just hack and hack over and over again cannot be trusted so please vote no people like hung / fleem
Twice. Once by my own screen shot. A second time by Eriador. That's two. It was done in 2002.
Man I remembered playing against you in 2on2 all the damn time.
The maphack or variations on it suck but a lot of players using it aren't strong players so at least you got a bit of a chance. Still not cool though. What really gets my goat is the drophack. I nearly uninstalled sc2 as a result of being dropped either as soon as the game starts or just when i am about to kick arse. There really isn't any defence from it. I am from the uk and have noticed a strong pattern in its usuage. During school hours or after 11pm when all the kiddies are offline i am relatively safe and only get dropped about 10% of the time. Last night I played 10 games between 6pm and 8pm resulting in 6 drops Really blizzard need to sort something out about it and at least change their system.
For example if you get dropped as the game starts the points deducted should be halfed. Also blizzard themselves should have some detection software in place that automatically bans anyone who has won more than 50% of their games as a result of player drops.
Everyone who is stupid enough to hack on important tournaments with alot of people following deserves lifetime ban. Because if you think its OK to hack then, you will hack again.
On October 06 2010 16:59 Vernom wrote: Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
Please don't tell me about lose, i had fun by playing offrace - protoss. But i was really raged to see - that hacker - i talk about Executor now - is back as nothing was happened. This guy runied a big number of competitons and even didn't excuse. That's why i flamed him in the beginning of the game by calling "retarded hacker", not in the end, where i didn't say a single word. And yes, right now - Walen, his manager in LRM, who knew about his hacks and always tried to get him to non-antihack server to play - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
Ask yourself a few questions please. Was there any reason to openly BM Executor in the game you were playing against him or was it just you raging over the past ? Did Executor hack the game you were playing when you insulted him ? Why didnt you refuse to play against a former hacker ? Why didnt you just kept your mouth shut and complained after the match ?
you behaved prematurely and deserve to get punished for it. I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past. By BM i mean insulting other players btw ^^.
Oh. Pour executor. Can you give me his contact info? I wonna... BM him too.
On October 06 2010 16:59 Vernom wrote: Well Strelok, we know why you opened this thread. You were beated by one of those "sc/bw's hackers" you mention.
I can understand your rage but you have to know their past actions at another game doesnt imply they are still doing that at sc2. Some of us was a "retard" (hacking/bm/abuse/more things) at one time of our past gaming life and most of those are rehabilited.
I know that was pretty stupid by them at sc/bw but a new game means a new life until they are caught doing the same.
Please don't tell me about lose, i had fun by playing offrace - protoss. But i was really raged to see - that hacker - i talk about Executor now - is back as nothing was happened. This guy runied a big number of competitons and even didn't excuse. That's why i flamed him in the beginning of the game by calling "retarded hacker", not in the end, where i didn't say a single word. And yes, right now - Walen, his manager in LRM, who knew about his hacks and always tried to get him to non-antihack server to play - writes to blizzard to ban me for nomanner. We'll see how it goes.
Ask yourself a few questions please. Was there any reason to openly BM Executor in the game you were playing against him or was it just you raging over the past ? Did Executor hack the game you were playing when you insulted him ? Why didnt you refuse to play against a former hacker ? Why didnt you just kept your mouth shut and complained after the match ?
you behaved prematurely and deserve to get punished for it. I hope you dont get banned but you shouldnt BM ppl ingame no matter what they did in the past. By BM i mean insulting other players btw ^^.
Oh. Pour executor. Can you give me his contact info? I wonna... BM him too.
I think that most of these guys have allready been given there second chance, doesnt really matter what game that chance was given in ( as long it is a competetive game) they should be banned for life. Giving them one chance is debatable, giving them more then 1 chance, thats just stupid. They are destroying the fun for all of us, and especially when there is tournements with prizes, it would just suck to have cheaters ruin it.
BAN THE HACKERS !
Many sports have been ruined by people cheating (like cycling using illegal substances like epo and such ) have ruined the sport for alot of people. I think 6 out of the 8 last winners of Tour de France have been caught using illegal supplements, Lance Armstrong is still debatable, since he has beaten all of the people who did use illegal supplements, but never been caught. Now peoples trust in the sport and the athletes is somewhat ruined. People come back after their 2 year suspension and act like nothing happened, kinda sickening.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
explain this please. If a hacker constantly cheats, he's not going to suddenly stop cheating when a new game comes out -_-
When trust is destroyed, it takes a long time to get it back. Hackers should never be given a warm welcome, period. IMO I'll never 100% trust a proven hacker, but if they can go 1-2 years without hacking, then at that point maybe the trust-building can begin again.
On October 06 2010 03:20 superbabosheki wrote: There are a ton of known hackers/abusers playing right now, lastshadow comes to mind. Everyone gets a second chance, that's life. Thread will probably be closed.. soon.
nobody likes him. But a counter-example is DIMAGA, who is a proven abuser, yet everyone pretty much adores him.
What do you mean, an "abuser"? And when has he done this? I don't know anything about this (not saying its not true, just interested to know more)
On October 06 2010 20:07 Geo.Rion wrote: i presonally wouldnt trust anyone who has ever hacked in any game, at any times. Hacking is like stealing. If you stole once, you are a thief
well, if you steal once and prove later on that you've learned from your mistakes - ok
but if you continuously steal and - worse - have never shown any sign of regret....then that's bad, very bad; ppl like TT1 or ajtls have (or at least seem to have) left their dark past behind them and have lived up to the expectation of the community; totally different
On October 06 2010 16:45 Butigroove wrote: This thread just made me think of LastShadow, although he was more into the map part and not the hacking. My god everything that dude does just makes me chuckle inside to no end.
My thoughts exactly. When I heard he was in the SC2 scene and making results I was all O_O because he caused such hilarious drama back in the day for chronic lying and map-rigging.
On topic: the community clearly does not approve of hacking. The only possible benefit of former hackers competing is their becoming successful and providing epic games. Testie has accomplished this, but I feel he is the exception, not the rule. Furthermore, we must weigh the sacrifice of sportsmanship against the benefits of spectating a handful more players.
The community has always dealt with underhanded practices in a rather ad hoc fashion. We are not governed by any single dictator organization, so it will be some time till punishments are codified or unified.
On October 06 2010 17:48 iDoMiNaTe2.0 wrote: Sorry, but Testie was caught hacking numerous of times it seem he got caught every patch until like 1.13. Yeah of course he didn't need it but he lied about hacking for years
People who just hack and hack over and over again cannot be trusted so please vote no people like hung / fleem
Twice. Once by my own screen shot. A second time by Eriador. That's two. It was done in 2002.
I hope whatever personal problems you have resolve (or have resolved) favorably, and you would definitely have a fan in me if you came back to Broodwar or started playing Starcraft 2.
I used to feel differently about hackers. I thought that if you hacked, you deserved to be permanently kicked out from the Starcraft community. But now, my one criterion for accepting past hackers is "has the hacker played well in a LAN where cheating was impossible?" If he has, I don't care if he hacked before that LAN or since.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't raise a stink if blizzard banned them. And I understand that some online tournaments are very important to some players, and those players would be cheated if they were hacked against in those tourneys. So if the hacker is banned from those tournaments as well, that would make sense to me. But do I care that the player hacked? No. Lots of people say Starcraft is their favorite game because of the classy, manner, tight-knit community. I get that some people find that important, but to me it's a joke. I like the game, and I like good players playing game. If I want class, I'll watch some rich white guy on a horse use a cane to hit a little white ball through an arch (a sport which very well may not exist anywhere but in my mind as a a representation of privilege).
So hack away. Get caught hacking multiple times. Repeatedly lie about it -- or revel in the fact that you do it, and laugh at the money you won because of it. Show yourself to be a pathological cheater -- if you're skilled, I want you in the GSL.
doenst make much sense imo. somehow this remebers me on the movie "minority report". yeah they hacked, maybe every single game they did in sc1 but that doesnt mean they will do this in a DIFFERENT game. if you want to ban ex sc1 hackers from tourneys you additionally have to ban wc3 hackers, cs hackers and so on...
they all got their punishment in the game in that they used hacks and they will get punished in this game if they start using hacks.
Hackers ruin games. There's plenty of hilarious ways to mess with people and have fun without hacking. For people who hack repeatedly, if nothing changes then nothing changes and there shouldn't be any kind of welcome back
I think we should look at haypro, caught hacking with obvlivion and cheated only once at Dreamhack, he rehabilitated and came out stronger and better than ever.. we should all learn from this !
Anyway in SC2 it's going to be pretty hard to tell for certain considering a completely stealth maphack is possible. You'd just have to notice patterns of a player acting suspiciously (like instantly directly scouting a proxy location) which is hard to tell for certain. Rigged maps no longer a problem at least.
You guys are talking about this like people are rehabilitating from drug abuse or domestic abuse. Cheating in starcraft is not any worse than downloading a song from a torrent tracker illegally.
Cheating means you're taking risks.. just like taking steroids in sports. You take the risk for the reward, knowing you might get caught...
..except when you get caught cheating in Starcraft, you just make a new name and no one gives a fuck.
I think hacking is way more serious then some people think. Especially in tourney's. IMO you shouldn't only get banned forever, but also get a huge fine or something.
A huge fine isn't enforceable unless there's a law behind it.
While "past" actions don't necessarily predict the "future", I do think that current and recent actions are an indicator of future ones. If people re not and have not in the recent past played BW cleanly, they should not be allowed in SC2. If they have cleaned up their act in BW and can show as much, hey, cool, let them in.
All you can ACTUALLY do is trust in the game's anticheat. This isn't BW which was for all intents and purposes abandoned after some years forcing 3rd party anticheats. This is a brand new game which has Blizzard's full attention. Hackers will be dealt with. If old hackers aren't cheating, good. If they are, I trust they'll be caught.
Ban them from outside tournaments and berrate them on forums.
Nothing else can be done. Just wait to see em do it on LAN.
I think a hard line is important, like Kespa with Savior. You can't compare BMs with the videogame equivalent of steroid abusers like that dude a few pages back.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
explain this please. If a hacker constantly cheats, he's not going to suddenly stop cheating when a new game comes out -_-
When trust is destroyed, it takes a long time to get it back. Hackers should never be given a warm welcome, period. IMO I'll never 100% trust a proven hacker, but if they can go 1-2 years without hacking, then at that point maybe the trust-building can begin again.
On October 06 2010 03:20 superbabosheki wrote: There are a ton of known hackers/abusers playing right now, lastshadow comes to mind. Everyone gets a second chance, that's life. Thread will probably be closed.. soon.
nobody likes him. But a counter-example is DIMAGA, who is a proven abuser, yet everyone pretty much adores him.
What do you mean, an "abuser"? And when has he done this? I don't know anything about this (not saying its not true, just interested to know more)
DIMAGA abused to improve his ladder rating in the TSL2, and was subsequently disqualified from the TSL2, banned from TL events for 12 months, is banned from competing in the TSL3 in the future, and was banned from GG.net events & rankings for 6 months:
Keep in mind he doesn't exactly fit the OP's description, because he's not a repeat offender, and he definitely tried to make up for it by apologizing afterwards.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
Lol this guy obviously doesn't know wut happened in be with kids like Dino who hacked every day for fun and admittd it. There is no way these guys shud be magically forgiven just because our game platform changed.
To be quite honest I still find it hard to trust the TSL2 abusers like Dimaga. Although with regards to map hackers like Executor and that ilk I don't think we can ever trust them again. They were given enough chances with Brood War, there's no reason why they won't just maphack all over again.
The cheating response should be just like the American response to sex offenders. You have to register as such and are constantly monitored for the rest of your days while everyone else knows just how despicable you really are/were.
On October 06 2010 16:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Trek, tt1, testie... these are all guys who rehabilitated and went on to do great things for the community. You cannot say the same for those guys.
Testie shouldn't be listed among them. He hacked multiple times - at least twice that I can think off - said he'd never do it again, then blatantly ruined the game for others by doing it again. Though to be fair, not being caught for seven or so years after that makes up for it somewhat.
Still, I have not sympathy for hackers. Get caught, then fuck off. I won't lose any tears over someone ruining the game for others not being able to play because he got caught. No self-respecting individual would hack.
Probably with the above paragraph is that it's only true for people 18+.... before that, we all do stupid things - even though I still despise hackers even if they're minors !
Many maphackers start out 'trying it out for fun'. But you see, it is actually a different mindset. Theirs is not to play the game in a fair way, but more to explore to what extent technical shortcomings can be used to gain (unfair) advantages. That is how they play THEIR game. Important difference. Personally I wouldn't be too happy to play against a maphacker, especially if it's a game where I'm sweating my ass off trying to get that win.
Unfortunately it cannot be prevented. As long as the server sends ALL unit data to all players (even those under the fog of war), that data can be used by maphackers. So I guess it's a matter of accepting that a small percentage of your games will be against a maphacker (would me extremely small actually)..
coming from a wc3 background and a foreigner scene tainted by hackers, i vote no. i sincerely don't want sc2 to take the path of wc3 and get polluted by ventrilo teams and maphackers on top of the leagues and ladders for months at a time before blizz cleans them up. there was even hacks that blizz never detected throughout the lifespan of TFT and the same hacker kept his account all the way to 1500 wins.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
I don't get it either. There doesn't seem to be anything remotely banworthy in that post, not even deserving of a warn.
I still disagree, though. A second chance, fine. If you are given a second chance, and then betray that, you are not only a worthless player, but a pathetic human being. Why would we want anyone like that in the community?
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow was he really banned? lol mods really need to lighten up if someone was banned for stating his opinion in a calm manner.
On topic: I am positive there will be some bw hackers who won't hack in sc2 simply because it's expensive. We used to get Brood war for like 20 bucks, not a huge deal if the account was banned. But now that SC2 is linked to a battle.net account, and costs 60 bucks, I wouldn't dare to start hacking.
Pretty sure he was banned because he didn't read the OP which stated pretty clearly that the people he was talking about were banned multiple times and he goes and posts "not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times".
On October 07 2010 05:59 dcberkeley wrote: Pretty sure he was banned because he didn't read the OP which stated pretty clearly that the people he was talking about were banned multiple times and he goes and posts "not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times".
I think its pretty obvious that he didnt answer ''not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times'' because he didnt read the OP, but did so because he didnt know to what extent these peoples did hack. To me it seems pretty obvious that is was more of a ''well i dont really know these guys so I cant argue on what you call getting caught cheating numerous time but my opinion about hackers is...''
Anyways, on topic, I would usually be good with letting people a chance, the only problem with hacking is a bit of what has been described in the LastShadow drama. Hackers often stop hacking and become legit, the big issue though is the temptation to try it again when they see that their performance starts lacking compared to others.
I played executor in a ladder game lol. Some people go legit, some hack for life. Wasn't Spades hacking too like 3 years ago? He seems pretty legit nowadays.
I agree with Tad. Everyone deserves a second chance.
Shamefully, I maphacked in Warcraft 3 back in middle school. It took Blizzard 2 temp bans and a threat to permaban my account to finally get me to stop. These days, Blizzard seems a lot stricter with hackers. But I was just curious how far I could get on the ladder, and I didn't realize how competitive the ladders actually were. I just thought of the ladder the same way as a custom game.
But I have never even considered using a hack since then.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
iG.Cloud was warned for saying this:
Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change.
User was warned for this post.
I don't think that is fair.
I also don't think that map hackers will stop map hacking just because they are playing a different game. I vote that we do not allow cheaters in the community.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
Reread what he said and then read the OP.
Re-read them both. So you are banning people for honest mistakes now? Maybe he didn't play BW so he just didn't know the names the OP was talking about.... Not a fan of turning TL into a police state
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
Reread what he said and then read the OP.
Re-read them both. So you are banning people for honest mistakes now? Maybe he didn't play BW so he just didn't know the names the OP was talking about....
No he didn't read the whole OP. If he had read the whole op he would see these guys have been given second chances in bw and have cheated in multiple occasions in tournaments.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
Reread what he said and then read the OP.
Re-read them both. So you are banning people for honest mistakes now? Maybe he didn't play BW so he just didn't know the names the OP was talking about.... Not a fan of turning TL into a police state
No, he was banned for just mindless replying (his post is 2 minutes after the original post) without even reading the original post. BTW you can check the Automated Ban Thread to see reasons why people were banned.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
Reread what he said and then read the OP.
Re-read them both. So you are banning people for honest mistakes now? Maybe he didn't play BW so he just didn't know the names the OP was talking about.... Not a fan of turning TL into a police state
No, he was banned for just mindless replying (his post is 2 minutes after the original post) without even reading the original post. BTW you can check the Automated Ban Thread to see reasons why people were banned.
Oh wow never knew about that thx. I always hafta search through people's post histories till I find the red one lol
dunno tbh I think people get way too aggressive about hackers. theres a difference between cheating in random ladder games then cheating in a tournament with a prize
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow was he really banned? lol mods really need to lighten up if someone was banned for stating his opinion in a calm manner.
On topic: I am positive there will be some bw hackers who won't hack in sc2 simply because it's expensive. We used to get Brood war for like 20 bucks, not a huge deal if the account was banned. But now that SC2 is linked to a battle.net account, and costs 60 bucks, I wouldn't dare to start hacking.
"Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times" he was banned for saying that since he was not reading the OP.
On topic (jacked, hehe): Blizzard's been pretty good with the hack prevention in Warcraft III until SC2 came out. Patches would be made frequently to prevent hacks from working, but when SC2 was released, the anti-hack patches came slower.
Blizzard definitely has the power to make anti-hacks and they have the capability to ban. With that power in hand, we should let hackers have a second chance, and if they eff it up, they'll get banned from B.Net with their 60 dollar account. Ez.
On October 07 2010 07:01 petzergling wrote: dunno tbh I think people get way too aggressive about hackers. theres a difference between cheating in random ladder games then cheating in a tournament with a prize
an what's that difference?!
for me it's so damn obvious, i really see any discussion redundant. cheating are the equivalent to "performance enhancing drugs" in sports. this sport being "esports". this means clearly something like this:
being cought once, ban for a year and if it's a tournament with prices a nice fine, if they intend to play again. being cought more than once, lifeban. being cought twice means, after you got a ban for hacking/cheating, then gotten rehabilitated. and now getting cought another time.
tournaments should have some sort of common blacklist or anti cheating team. it would be easier to oversee the system. and more important it would prevent people from hacking, cause it will result in much harder punishment.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
wow pretty harsh ban right here, well since TL doesn't support hackers and people that support hackers in a third person way I guess it's quiet deserved.
Yeah, don't give these guys a benefit of the doubt, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me thrice I'm fucking stupid
oh kay, since I saw that he replied that without lookin at OP it's a pretty straight forward ban. TL must be upping up quality of posting now.
I really dont see what the difference is between people who have hacked once and people who have hacked several times....
All the people we are talking about have used hack in several serious games to gain something which is considered of value to the starcraft community. Be that fame, respect or whatever.
I know you could probably set this up as those who did it once and those who did it several times, but I really think it's more a question of what you're willing to let slide.
Personally I've always had a zero tolerance stance against hackers or abusers of any kind. Call me an angry elefant or something else for that matter :p
On a side note. I've been playing another game where the community was so small that people were forced to seriously consider to let hacking and abusing slide in every single game. The community consists of around 30 players of which there is 3-4 people who are known to have been abusing once or more times. The community have more or less split into two halves. Those who tolerate this and those who doesnt. To me I guess the people who play with the abusers either haven't heard about it, or still feel they can get some kind of positive game experience out of this anyway.
I think this is interesting.... But it will never change my zero tolerance stance.
On October 06 2010 03:18 TadH wrote: Everyone deserves a second chance.
Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think.
User was temp banned for this post.
sorry why was this guy temp banned? I see nothing inflammatory or off topic about his post.
Even if I don't agree with it. I will always give a person a second chance, but very rarely any chances beyond that.
I don't get it either. There doesn't seem to be anything remotely banworthy in that post, not even deserving of a warn.
I still disagree, though. A second chance, fine. If you are given a second chance, and then betray that, you are not only a worthless player, but a pathetic human being. Why would we want anyone like that in the community?
seriously? posting w/o reading the OP is banworthy and no it isnt an honest mistake. its ridiculous.
"yo OP, i dont know what ur talkin about becuz i didnt read what u said, but here is my opinion: "
ontopic: I voted no. But I think a player who gets caught once or twice could easily assimilate back into the community. Go play at a LAN and do as well as you are online. not that hard to regain trust
blizzard should consider removing the fog of war for ALL players and then we can finally see who can actually play the game. i'd love to see some of the top layers fall from grace then when there's a level playing field. i am sick of playing at a disadvantage. random ladder games are just as important to the people who shelled out hard erned cash and who play fair and want to enjoy. i couldn't give a toss about tournament players. blizzard should ban ALL accounts for those found cheating ...no 2nd chances. force the kiddies to buy the game again under anew name. sooner or later they'd get fed up.
sad to hear so many top players find it kind of acceptable. to me that suggests maphacking is much more ripe on battlenet than a lot of people admit. so far over 5000 ppl got banned but i bet thats a small percentage of ppl who cheat. iam starting to think that about 15% of current players use some kind of script, mod, hack or whatever. it ruins the experience for honest gamers. i am honestly considering asking for my money back on the game and using it for a little bag of weed, a lot less stressful
If you get caught hacking in CSS, you are banned in all Source engine games (e.g. TF2), the way it should be.
If you get caught hacking in SC1, you shouldn't have a chance in SC2 just because it's a 'different game.'
Simply put, if you're enough of an idiot to cheat and justify doing so, changing what game you play will not change your mindset.
Exactly, we don't need this to end up like many other professional sports, with winners constantly being caught using performance enhancers. Fortunately we can screen fairly well for major tournaments, but the ladder and the smaller tournaments are still vulnerable.
If you get caught hacking in CSS, you are banned in all Source engine games (e.g. TF2), the way it should be.
If you get caught hacking in SC1, you shouldn't have a chance in SC2 just because it's a 'different game.'
Simply put, if you're enough of an idiot to cheat and justify doing so, changing what game you play will not change your mindset.
Thats not true at all. You can always buy a new key and enter the tourneys under another alias or use the "my brother was on my account" excuse. The same holds true for sc2 as just because a player may have been "vacced" or account banned, the tournament organizers cant prove they cheated during their competition and thus have no reason to ban players.
But banning cheaters of previous games is entirely unfair in my opinion as SC2 is a new game and unrelated to its predecessor. It would be like banning you from playing Street fighter cos you cheated in Tekken. Although if you cheated in a tournament and were banned from all other events run by that tournament it would make sense. It seems unfair to punish someone for something they havent yet done.
Ultimately if you want cheaters of a current game to be blocked from playing in competitions you need to convince the tournament organisers to set up a blacklist of players that have been independantly proven by a panel of refs or a 3rd party that isnt working on that tourney to have cheated. For example if you have been proven as cheating ingame in the gosucup you are then barred from kraft/zotac/etc. It is really important to have an independant panel to judge the players to keep this valid and things like ladder abuse/matchfixing fall into a grey area because they arent "hacks".
Anyways it was a good idea to bring up the topic up because theres no point in single tournament bans when we have 3 or 4 cups running a week.
On October 07 2010 13:35 Nightfall.589 wrote: Quarkle, but the game is balanced around the lack of information afforded by fog of war.
It used to be before the hacks started to surface. lets face anyone can type maphack into google and in a few minutes you are good to go.
The authors even boast how they can stay one step ahead of blizzard. Reminds of of virus, trojans and worms, virtually any script kiddie can knock something up to stay ahead.
really if blizzard removed the fog of war it would stop virtually ALL cheats in their tracks, as much as i like the tension of the fog if a good percentage of players can't handle it and feel the need to cheat then maybe it is time for blizzrd to remove it.? only then would it be a level field ..with .reactions, skill, intelligence and speed being the only way to really win fair and square.
maybe blizzard could setup up a ladder for the cheating fuckers? but under no circumstances do they deserve a 2nd chance once they've been caught red handed. trust me on this when i say the mindset of a cheat cannot be changed or trusted. cheaters aren't misdirected individuals they were/are born with the predisposition, its in their genetic makeup
to be honest, i dont think hackers should get a second chance. why? simply because it's pretty much the 'crime' of gaming lol. it's very likely that even if they get caught once, they'll be repeat offenders, and have hacked before.
i also wondered,
why does tadh get temp banned for: "Everyone deserves a second chance.Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think."
but iG.ClouD gets a warning for this:"Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change."
I'm all up for giving people second chances, but third and fourth? The line has to be drawn somewhere otherwise the people just wont care. If a person was serious about rehabilitation ( someone mentioned that term ) from maphacking addiction then he or she would have to formally appologize to the community and show them that the is serious and sorry for doing it the wrong way. However as i mentioned, if its 3 or 4 offenses, who will trust that player again? I know I wouldnt.
On October 08 2010 04:13 imyzhang wrote: to be honest, i dont think hackers should get a second chance. why? simply because it's pretty much the 'crime' of gaming lol. it's very likely that even if they get caught once, they'll be repeat offenders, and have hacked before.
i also wondered,
why does tadh get temp banned for: "Everyone deserves a second chance.Not sure if the people you're talking about have been caught numerous times, but with a new game comes new trust, or so I would think."
but iG.ClouD gets a warning for this:"Everyone voting yes is a fucking retard. You ruin the game along with them. I don't care about being banned for this post, this is my real opinion about this matter and it won't change."
?
Because teamliquid is more lenient on veteran/high profile players? It's always been that way. And the guy got banned because it the OP clearly stated MORE than a second chance, while the posted ignored it COMPLETELY. He clearly capitalized SEVERAL and made a point to say "more than once." He was temp banned for blindly posting without reading the topic.
But yes, most other posts besides cloud would have been banned because it's typical of TL policy to ban people that say "i don't care if i'll be banned" regardless of the content/quality of hte rest of hte post.
EPT
Mondragon
