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On October 02 2010 23:45 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 23:34 Alpina wrote:On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.) But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff. I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better. Wow, you've completely missed my point. I only posted that game to prove that using spine crawlers + OL to defend cliff drops is a common strategy. I didn't say anything about the quality of anyone's play.
Ahh sorry then. Yeah I agree, most higher level players use that strat, cause there isn't much you can do. Spines + mutas/drops/infestors.
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On October 02 2010 23:45 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 23:34 Alpina wrote:On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.) But look how bad he positioned his spines - if he had 2 of them ready near the cliff he could have defended that much better. And that one which was already in position still was not near the cliff, so he couldn't reach the cliff. I don't say it's easy to defend cliff drop but IdrA really could have made much better. Wow, you've completely missed my point. I only posted that game to prove that using spine crawlers + OL to defend cliff drops is a common strategy. I didn't say anything about the quality of anyone's play.
Yeah it is, though normally you need to move them over first since you can't afford to build extra ones to defend cliff while also defending your front. LT also has the problem with the cliffs being so large that the spines can't reach far enough to hit siege tanks at the back. However on Kulas gold base, it seemed to fit perfectly.
Seemed to me like he always played the maps really well and planned his builds extremely well.
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I don't play Zerg but I think most people responding in this thread forgot that he played around 11 terrans to get to the finals don't just look at the ITR game other top terrans and favorites cool went through to get to finals. His play evolved each round. He didnt stay stagnant. He was mobile he had all the tech at his disposal. He expanded when he should have or double expanded. I can't say that his play was anything super duper brilliant he used every ability that Zerg has at their disposal. Drops nydus, I thought for a long time why people dont drop speedlings into opponents main. 15 speedlings are much harder to kill running around than marauders and marines. They might not snipe a nexus or CC but they will do econ damage and are pesky to deal with.
Really round after round he made TvZ look easier and easier.
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Hydra are even in the hand of Fruitseller not worth, Roaches would have cleaned up in Game4.
Overlord drops are great!
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I have learned that I am absolutely terrible at Zerg and totally playing it wrong. :O
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On October 02 2010 22:16 Ganondorf wrote:
He showed all of us that the metagame still needs to evolve before complaining about balance issues.
And this is why Blizzard didn't make any 'large' balance changes last patch, like some people were asking for. The game's only been out 2 months and 5 days since release, and not all the strats have been found yet, as shown here.
(If this is inappropriate, feel free to delete. I just think it's great that someone exists who didn't listen to all the balance chatter and showed the rest of us the way.)
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I have learned that SC2 can produce great enjoyable games worth watching 
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...Are some of you guys serious? Holding larvae and resources in reserve while waiting for tech to kick in is a novel idea to you? -_- This has been standard in zerg play since SC1... Look at how the pros do muta timings or guardian morphs etc. I don't know who came up with the dumb idea of res float = noob, but it definitely doesn't apply to zerg. At least not until you're like late game hive tech with all upgrades already.
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Thanks for clearing that up. I really stuck to the res float=bad idea during my play. So whenever I stock up on minerals I get an urge to spend them on anything at all. Maybe I should change my mindset and play more naturally instead of forcing myself to not float my res.
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On October 02 2010 23:10 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 22:12 YyapSsap wrote:
Even though I dont play zerg, he has shown so many things that many zerg players dont really do against T. Heres the following that I thought were ingenious.
1) Stopping the tank drops on cliffs. When we look at maps like Kulas or LT where its riddled with cliffs i.e. perfect for tank drops, I dont see any zerg defending their nat like FD did. By placing the overlord near the cliff with 2 spin crawlers, this seriously blocked any sort of damage that could of happened at the natural Spine crawlers + OL is probably the most common way to deal with tank and thor drops on LT. Actually this strategy is so prevalent that I'm confused how so many posters in this thread think that it's a new innovation. Edit: to prove my point, I searched "IdrA [to get a Zerg] Lost Temple" on YouTube and clicked the first video that came up: + Show Spoiler [the VOD] +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_ASm0XvvA In it, IdrA uses spine crawlers and overlords to defend his cliff. However (unlike Rainbow) Silver brings marines and is able to make the drop work. (I don't intend to take anything away from Cool's big win, but thought that was worth pointing out.)
Yep. surprised ITR didnt bring rines and chose to build turrets instead. But yeah this isnt new.
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I am now officially scared of banelings even though I don't even play T
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This series only proved to me that the meta-game still needs to evolve. In this particular case, Terran players need to back away from the harass, 1 base play styles and start utilizing macro and all of their tech options. A few months from now, we will start to see Terrans experimenting more with all of their tech options (Ravens in particular), and then the ZvT meta-game will evolve based around that. Eventually the stages of game play will become clearly defined, like how it is in Brood War.
Also, this series clearly shows the potential this game has when truly good players play SC2, especially those who were really good in the original Starcraft. Unfortunately, I don't see non-koreans remaining competitive in the long term, not as long as all of the main SC2 events are hosted in Korea.
Oh and, Cool is awesome. Macro, micro, strategy, creativity, and game sense. Many of the favorites of these forums exhibit only one or a few of these traits, but few exhibit all of them. I'm looking forward to seeing a good Terran player with the same level of play as Cool.
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Like others have pointed out, his ability to defend EXTREMELY well with low supply and get 5 upgrades and tech structures at the same time as droning mid-game, as well as using overlords as a part of the main attacking force. Kudos, my zerg friend, kudos.
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On October 03 2010 00:22 NeWnAr wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up. I really stuck to the res float=bad idea during my play. So whenever I stock up on minerals I get an urge to spend them on anything at all. Maybe I should change my mindset and play more naturally instead of forcing myself to not float my res.
As a Z user, my res tends to go up and down depending on what phase of the game I'm in. Early game there's almost never any money. Almost dead broke constantly. But at lair to hive tech, there are definitely key moments when you want the money to start stacking up. As spire's going up, I definitely always float around 5-600 gas. As infestor pit goes up, again 4 to 500 gas is normal. Or even when I'm dropping two evo chambers + lair teching, I'll let my res float up to 500/500 in preparation for getting 2 upgrades + ovie speed.
I don't know how T and P play, but it's totally ok to have float at certain times with Z. Now it's problematic when you're floating 1k/1k at lair tech and all you're building is roaches. That tends to mean you did not keep up with larvae injection, got supply capped several times, or there's just something very wrong with the build order. Or if you're going broodlords and there's 3k mins floating. That probably means something's really wrong with your unit comp or expansion rate to float that heavily, but even up to 1k/1k is no big deal as long as you have a plan for that float to be used within the next minute. I routinely save up that amount while going hive tech.
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What has impressed me is the fact that he's defending so well with so few unit while he's pumping drones and expo like crazy. I think it is the key of his play.He build time with infestor/backstab/counter-attack, to macro up and then: he got all tech, all upgrades and can pump every unit he wants to counter terran.
He's such a beast, i don't see why its even possible with every early push/all-in a terran can throw at you...
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On October 03 2010 00:26 GaMeOfFeAr wrote:
This series only proved to me that the meta-game still needs to evolve. In this particular case, Terran players need to back away from the harass, 1 base play styles and start utilizing macro and all of their tech options. A few months from now, we will start to see Terrans experimenting more with all of their tech options (Ravens in particular), and then the ZvT meta-game will evolve based around that. Eventually the stages of game play will become clearly defined, like how it is in Brood War.
Also, this series clearly shows the potential this game has when truly good players play SC2, especially those who were really good in the original Starcraft. Unfortunately, I don't see non-koreans remaining competitive in the long term, not as long as all of the main SC2 events are hosted in Korea.
Oh and, Cool is awesome. Macro, micro, strategy, creativity, and game sense. Many of the favorites of these forums exhibit only one or a few of these traits, but few exhibit all of them. I'm looking forward to seeing a good Terran player with the same level of play as Cool.
I don't see Terran evolving away from 1 base play vs Z for quite awhile. Mostly because of how effective speedling/baneling is versus bio. How exactly would Terran defend his early game expo vs a 1 base 2 hatch zerg? The fastest way possible right now is a siege expand, but that takes X amount of time no matter what. I just don't see Terran being able to get a CC down faster than that, saturate it so that it's actually worth it, and defend it properly. Especially with how mules work, there's just zero need for that.
I also don't see Ravens figuring that heavily into games because their spells suck vs zerg. Seeker missile is slow, so it only really works in a late game setting where the players have too much shit going on to micro away from it. And what does a seeker missile do that one thor shot can't do better? Other than that, all ravens have is the defense drone, which is only good vs ground troops as mutas can just move away from the drone and harass from another side, or if there are enough muta, just focus the drone and destroy it instantly. And the turret, which quite honestly is nothing special other than as a harassment tool. If you look at the gas cost of a raven and how long it takes to get out, I just don't see it as becoming a viable tool in ZvT. In a very late game setting, maybe it's worth it, but otherwise, Terran is too gas starved trying to go bio and mech to ever consider adding a raven in. Adding a Raven would mean losing a thor and I don't see that as worth it unless the Z is going mass burrowed roaches.
The only way I see the meta-game evolving heavily for TvZ on the Terran end is with a new map pool with much different layouts. There will definitely be more refinements of build orders and unit compositions, timing attacks, different ways to do drops/harass etc, but something on the level of Bisu-build fast expo with Terran, I just don't see that happening.
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i never thought one side was overly favored. I do agree terran was a bit op but zergs were so infatuated w/ that instead of improving on their zerg gameplay. Cool did the latter and when things were balanced a bit, his overwhelming victory proved it.
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He taught me that I should've made an inb4 "all-new-fruitseller-threads" thread, however I didn't heed his advice 
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while i think Cool did brilliantly in gsl s1, i honestly think that he won is partly because terran players didnt fully utilise the terran race, eg Raven use(pdd, missile), thor's aoe stun, banshee mixed/multi-prong harass, viking hunt overlord - MMM and bionic mech play are too easy to use and effective against everything, terran players stop being creative because of that. wait till we see reaperxhellion double harass next time lol
and obviously Cool's victory is a good message to tell us zerg players, if we do it right, we can still win i will try harder to improve myself.
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he remembers me of mondragon in bw, just building drones, only harass a little with a few zerglings here and there and after a couple of minutes he has hive and crushes you with swarm :D
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EPT
