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Yeah, so basically you have the real threads in the special category, then you have everyone else talking in the not real threads.
Guess that means unless you hit whatever quality mark you need to to be placed in the real threads, you will be posting on the unreal threads.
Why post on the unreal thread at all, when you know no matter what you say people won't even be looking or paying any attention to it.
Not to say a lot of brilliant things are said on the forums, but something like Stalife drops wouldn't have been posted about so until TLO did it or something people wouldn't have knowledge about it.
Or when Day9 makes everyone not build queens and we see timing pushes and rushes not seen on any pro level games that may be quite viable. Day9 covered 5 of the 480 he saw, but any of the 480 could post their replay on TL. But since they aren't xxxx they get lumped in the unreal forums where no one goes for information.
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On September 23 2010 01:18 Triscuit wrote:
I was listening to the State of the Game podcast last night, and I really enjoyed where Day9 and Artosis were just going back and forth on the efficacy of drops vs nydus, and what to do when you get your ramp pylon-blocked. I think more of this kind of talk should be encouraged, but maybe not necessarily based on rating.
Top 100 in your region maybe? 200? Maybe just those in TLPD that are considered to be progamers? I know Day9 and the rest joke about how easy it is to get to 1200 with 4 warp gate rushes.
top 200 by region would exclude wayyy too many people. while it may encourage them to post more often, since they will have no fear of backlash, it will be a group of only like 50 people talking to each other since not everyone in the top 200 is a part of TL.
oh and thx for the info on the podcast. i normally dont watch those because they are so bland, but sounds like they go over very interesting strategies
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Doing it by points at all seems like the wrong strategy. For this to not turn out terribly, TL would have to make a list of pro gamers and give them permission in a separate forum; it could take a lot of manpower and effort (not sure how much effort it would take, but it'd require cross-checking stuff, and possibly have drama associated with semi-pro gamers, that 'think' they should be included), but would be the best outcome of this 'pro-gamer-only forum.'
If the pro-gamer forum is readable by the rest of the TL community, it wouldn't make any difference from the current state of the forums...since threads would just pop up talking about what the progamers are talking about...then progamers would (well, most likely if they're looking for feedback...) read the responses from "lesser players" anyway, and nothing would have changed.
TL (mods/admins/banlings) would have to close each and every one of these 'response threads' to prevent progamers from knowing what the community thinks about their ideas.
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Maybe split into 2 strategy forums with the understanding that one is more highly moderated and you will get banned/post deleted if you degrade into bs. Similar to what blizzard did with wow class forums. There are the role forums which get blue responses and are heavily moderated and the other threads which doesn't matter. (Tbh I think blizz needs to moderate better in either case)
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I think this would be ignorant, because lots of people (like myself) do not post a lot. I've been reading and going to TL.net for over 3 years. For the first year or so I didn't even have an account, I would just read strategies and watch the proleagues.
But because of my low post count you would immediately write me off, it would just create a lot of pointless post's, people would post on everything just to get there count up.
I disagree with this completely.
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IMO you can't do it by rating just because people who are 800 now will be 1200 by next week if active
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Don't like this for 2 reasons
1) you might not be a top 1500+ diamond player because you're slow at doing things manually but you could know the theory of the game.Not everyone is manually capable enough to get to 150+ apm and be fine, but they might not ignorant about the game
2) getting to 1200 points + if you're good it's just a matter of time, but you aren't guaranteed that more points= more skill= more insightfull posting.
I mean I'm almost at 800 points diamond being an ex E/D- rank on bw because I'm damn hands slow and I just know theory I can't put that in practice most of the times, still I feel I know enough to not be a terribad poster, not a good insightfull one maybe, but I feel I could partecipate in most discussions without being a dumbass.
It would just be an elite thing to brag about you're points imo.Plus most players that are high in points aren't frequent posters because...if you want to get 2k diamond you need to be good AND play a damn lot.
I've found that sometimes playing against a lower league guy helped me much more because they knew theories that I didn't know.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 23 2010 02:38 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +Anyway, I think the sub forum should be on an invite basis, with those invited being able to invite others they deem 1337 enough. I was going to say something here, but this is a far superior idea.
I actually like this idea, seeing as it gets around a lot of the logistics issues that would otherwise be a problem.
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On September 23 2010 02:48 Williowa wrote:
Yeah, so basically you have the real threads in the special category, then you have everyone else talking in the not real threads.
Guess that means unless you hit whatever quality mark you need to to be placed in the real threads, you will be posting on the unreal threads.
Why post on the unreal thread at all, when you know no matter what you say people won't even be looking or paying any attention to it.
Not to say a lot of brilliant things are said on the forums, but something like Stalife drops wouldn't have been posted about so until TLO did it or something people wouldn't have knowledge about it.
Or when Day9 makes everyone not build queens and we see timing pushes and rushes not seen on any pro level games that may be quite viable. Day9 covered 5 of the 480 he saw, but any of the 480 could post their replay on TL. But since they aren't xxxx they get lumped in the unreal forums where no one goes for information.
Consider the wants and needs of high Diamond players. As it currently stands, we have no real strategy forum. We can't connect with others and discuss things. Every popular thread on TL hits 50 pages overnight, and a lot of it is filled with posts that high level Diamond players would prefer they didn't read. Finding a good post in the TL strategy forums is like finding a needle in a haystack. I myself have just given up on it. If they implemented this, I would actually have a strategy forum to read and participate in. But what we have now is extremely unattractive and unusable to high diamond players.
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On September 23 2010 03:15 sva wrote:
I think this would be ignorant, because lots of people (like myself) do not post a lot. I've been reading and going to TL.net for over 3 years. For the first year or so I didn't even have an account, I would just read strategies and watch the proleagues.
But because of my low post count you would immediately write me off, it would just create a lot of pointless post's, people would post on everything just to get there count up.
I disagree with this completely.
Did you read the OP? Whether someone is allowed to post is based on some measure of skill, not by their post count.
Having a public-read, pro-write forum is a great idea, as long as there are two separate forums. One forum would be completely public and meant for newbies to ask for help, while the other would be for higher-level discussion and only open for posts by higher-level players (although can be read publicly). Here are my rebuttals to some of the objections raised so far: (A lot of these have already been stated, but because it's usually one poster at a time stating one point, they will get missed and posted over and over again)
- low level players with good strats would not be able to post: they could still post in the 'not-high-level' forum; while it's likely that will be less read, if the strat is really viable it will be picked up and highlighted by some TL mod (just like how Fazing and other strats were picked up out of the morass of the current strat forum).
- this is elitist/impinging on my freedom of speech/etc.- go back and read the rules of TL. If you want to troll/flame/whatever then go on the public b.net forums. I think the only people who really complain about strict moderation and the such are those who prefer to dick around and waste other people's time.
- This is an organizational nightmare: well I can't really say much about this since I am not privy to the inner workings of TL. However, the fact that several mods (e.g. Kennigit) have expressed support for this issue must mean that it is feasible in some form.
- Ranks change all the time: again, this is a logistical issue and there are probably workarounds; as OP said, this was simply an idea of how to implement the forum.
- Players can just cheese to 1200 diamond: This may or may not be true, but it certainly takes some effort and is far from satisfying for most players. Currently, in order to start a flame war, all a troll has to do is to register in TL using a unique ISP and then start a thread proclaiming that Terran is OP. Should this limit be in place it's unlikely someone would spend hours cheesing just to post. Also, on a more meta level, if cheesing is really that strong, then perhaps it can be discussed as a viable strategy. For example, a large number of games in the current GSL were decided by cheeses, and some were certainly very creative and worth discussing.
- I'm not mechanically strong enough to reach diamond, but I could if I was: (yeah right) but seriously, mechanics is a pretty big part of the game, and there are a lot of potential strategies which could be executable if someone had infinite apm, but not in practice. Being a higher-level player means you have a better judgement of what might or might not actually be possible. Again, if you really come up with a feasible strategy as a lower level player, you can still post it in the public forum and it will be picked up by a mod and brought to higher-level discussion.
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On September 21 2010 04:07 Slow Motion wrote:
I actually wouldn't mind a sub-forum where only the top players have rights to post, but the rest of us can read. I think that'd be pretty educational.
This. No replies from people where you wonder if they even played out the stuff they talk about.
I am in Silver and I'm all for this.
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The idea is interesting but the implementation is challenging.
My best advice based on very well run forums in the past is to significantly increase moderation. As mentioned by many others, you can be 800 diamond but understand the game very well and make insightful posts. If you look at the strategy forums, we've got some 1k+ diamond players that are complete shit and have no clue what is going on at all.
So my suggestion would be to have a "qualified strategy forum" where posts are deleted, players are banned and so on for making low quality posts. A very active moderation team + high threat of being flamed to all hell = fear of making stupid posts.
(Much easier to add 5-10 qualified moderators for that sub forum alone than to keep track of who is what rank and whether thats their real alias etc).
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For people opposing this, you'd actually not lose anything from a "pro-only" subforum being implemented. You'd still be able to post where you usually do, in the same manner, and reading the same quality of posts.
You'd actually gain the opportunity to observe quality discussions. Sometimes it best to just shut up and listen. I'm platinum and I'd love to read discussions between top tier players, knowing that every post carries weight and not having to question the relevancy of each post
So why would you oppose this? Are you just angry that you're excluded from participating in discussions where you probably wouldn't be able to come with valuable contributions? Are you afraid mods will be drawn away from the "public" forums? Are you afraid that the good players will no longer participate in the current strategy forums? (from what I can tell they've abandoned them already).
Personally I think this idea would be a huge contribution to the community. We could all get to learn so much from this. If you feel like discussing something you read on the "pro forum", take it to the public forum, I don't think the mods would frown on this kind of post copying.
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Some people are looking at this wrong. I've already mentioned a not too terribly difficult way to do this. tlbot on bnet and you can just go by top 2k global or some other number. You could also make a simple program that follows ladder points adjusts automatically.
If you only have pros the forum will be a bit barren. Yes you get varying lvl of input from non pros but it doesn't mean pros will always say smart things or not act like a whiny bitch. You can always invite people who say non dumb shit.
On September 23 2010 01:22 CagedMind wrote:
Here's how you verify. A tlbot on bnet. msg the bot something and it versifies who you are.
There's 75% of people who want a subforum although idea of not being able to read it is ridiculous idea.
Best way to do is having a skill lvl of "good" players. Even people hundreds of points under can take games off the top. They still have knowledge and are more able converse about the game. You open up talk a lot by having a depth of people who can play well. Maybe something like top 2k global?
I don't think only pros is a good idea cause how many are we talking about that would post? They will post even less cause there's no threads. Best way to do is have it being good players.
Interesting option is to allow all people to post in subforum still but you have to expand a window to read them. It makes it more cut and dry where your getting your info from and your not bogged down by bad posts. Good players can go on talking without seeing those posts if they want and not disturb discussion.
Quoting myself cause I'm so smart.
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On September 23 2010 00:41 Kennigit wrote:
We've had discussions about this in staff and theres definitely arguments on both sides ( i support it and am lobbying for some implementation of it :3 )
Glad to hear at least one administrator remark on this. I would like to hear more of what Team Liquid thinks on this subject. I keep hearing the shouts of this being against TL's ethos but what exactly is that ethos that this would be violating?
I personally think that the list that TL has of quality/notable players is a sufficient starting place for invites to the forum should it be created. From there I think an invite or application system with credentials would be by far the best system for screening players into such a forum. At the moment I think 1500+ would be a good cut off to get rid of 80% of the bullshit posts you find.
I personally find the strategy section of this forum worthless aside from the occasional thread such as iechonics(the format of his thread was rather superb).
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On September 23 2010 02:50 KillerPlague wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 01:18 Triscuit wrote:
I was listening to the State of the Game podcast last night, and I really enjoyed where Day9 and Artosis were just going back and forth on the efficacy of drops vs nydus, and what to do when you get your ramp pylon-blocked. I think more of this kind of talk should be encouraged, but maybe not necessarily based on rating.
Top 100 in your region maybe? 200? Maybe just those in TLPD that are considered to be progamers? I know Day9 and the rest joke about how easy it is to get to 1200 with 4 warp gate rushes. top 200 by region would exclude wayyy too many people. while it may encourage them to post more often, since they will have no fear of backlash, it will be a group of only like 50 people talking to each other since not everyone in the top 200 is a part of TL. oh and thx for the info on the podcast. i normally dont watch those because they are so bland, but sounds like they go over very interesting strategies
Only 50 people would be a good thing.
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I'm very curious to see what the resulting product of a Qualified Poster Only strategy sub-forum would be. A lots of peoples think that this idea would bear fruitions. I hope this idea will be given a try.
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1200 pts is progamer? Damn, I'm only 100 points away from a progamer!
No, seriously, I'm terrible and have like 80 APM. I'm not 100 points away from a progamer. Maybe like 1600+ would work?
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Despite all the blah di blah, never judge a book by it's cover, good players aren't good theorycrafters etc., this is just a very good way to up the standard. It's not "fair" as it generalises, but it sure is effective.
900 point Platinum, and I completely agree.
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EPT
