EPT[Trick] Early Game +7% Mineral Boost - Page 26
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Moa
United States790 Posts
| ||
|
Wonders
Australia753 Posts
On September 13 2010 06:58 mahnini wrote: someone please name an BW mechanic that was similar to this other than splitting workers because i honestly can't think of one. The larvae stop trick. Also manual mining was often faster on some patches, for example the 2nd and 3rd patches from the bottom at the bottom left position on Blue Storm. | ||
|
Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
And if it makes no difference at pro level, but annoys a good number of people at lower levels (ie a lot of the people in this thread), what is the point of keeping it in? It is a net loss for Blizzard. (if someone has the time to see how pointless it is, play a 1v1 mirror match up with someone where you both do this trick and the same build order. See what the difference in minerals is at like 15 supply, and then check the difference in APM. You may as well both NOT do it) | ||
|
Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On September 13 2010 12:46 curv3 wrote: I have to say I laugh at people complaining about this. Honestly, imho if you don't like doing little tricks that require skill and that truly separates the casual from the competitive players you will probably not be affected by this, as you will most likely never play a game high level enough for this to matter. You do absolutely nothing at the first minute of the game, saying this put you at a disadvantage against people that do it is the same thing as saying you will lose because you want to look at the stars and ponder at the begging of a football match, in the end it is just laziness. before this bug was discovered, less effort was required to remain competitive. i dont see why ppl can be so happy about having to do more work for basically the same outcome, as all the good player will have to do this, so it doesnt provide them any advantage over each other. but it means that the casual player and a player between casual and semipro will have less of a chance against someone of equal or even slightly minor strategical skill just because the other guy is good at spamming his keyboard. it doesnt add to the fun factor of playing sc2, it doesnt add to the fun factor of watching others play sc2, it wont provide the pros with additional strategical options as they will all do it anyway, it just makes playing sc2 more tedious. i dont see how anyone can consider this a good thing unless he is really keen on "schooling low apm noobs" with his gosu skill.... imho strategy games should be about strategy and not about who can click the fastest in a totally battle-unrelated situation. lets reserve the high apm situations for multitask-heavy midgame harass and microing the big battles. i just dont see the fun in microing my workers without any decision-making involved and without any interaction with my opponent. basically this whole discussion evolves around oldschool bw players welcoming this as they are used to clickfests and babysitting silly AI pathfinding more than players with some other background, so they expect to get an advantage out of this. | ||
|
figq
12519 Posts
On September 13 2010 09:24 Zelniq wrote: Now that's already a serious bug/problem. It means the hotkeys (not just the UI !) are slower to fetch by the engine than the shift-queued commands. Then we should shift-command as much as possible anything which gains from some milliseconds speedup. Not cool, at all.no, i've tested it and just holding down C (and nothing else) does absolutely nothing. 100% sure here (im assuming this is because the way it works is that by the time Return Cargo becomes 'available,' it's already too late/slow. you need to send it the command before it has minerals in its hands) However on a perfectly running engine, the way it is defined by protocol in the Editor (as listed by SiNiquity), spam C should work as it is available at step 4. By the way, just because Blizzard put it in the game, doesn't mean they intended all this, they sometimes miss a detail. | ||
|
Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
i dont see how anyone can consider this a good thing unless he is really keen on "schooling low apm noobs" with his gosu skill And that really is the only situation where it will make the touted 7% difference. Everywhere else it won't even come close. I really hope Blizzard gets rid of this. | ||
|
Sylvr
United States524 Posts
On September 13 2010 12:56 Swede wrote: I don't see why Blizzard would keep this in. It makes no difference in the places where people would like it to (the pro level). Pros will all do it, and the difference in APM would have to be GIGANTIC for one player to come out with a significant advantage over the other. Otherwise the advantage would be like, 0 - 2% or something pathetic. And if it makes no difference at pro level, but annoys a good number of people at lower levels (ie a lot of the people in this thread), what is the point of keeping it in? It is a net loss for Blizzard. (if someone has the time to see how pointless it is, play a 1v1 mirror match up with someone where you both do this trick and the same build order. See what the difference in minerals is at like 15 supply, and then check the difference in APM. You may as well both NOT do it) Competition is an Arms Race. They won't ALL use it right away, so a few will get a small advantage in earlier games and eventually it may very well even out, but that's just how things go... You don't hear people suggesting that the Military go back to Swords and Lances do you? Why shouldn't we? It would amount to the same thing in the end, you would just have to be a bit closer to your enemy right? All is fair in Starcraft and War. (unless it's not) | ||
|
Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
| ||
|
Voyager I
United States260 Posts
On September 13 2010 12:45 rauk wrote: i'm just responding to your post literally, i've played quake, cpma, and warsow. All of those games take steps to make strafe jumping easier. Quake/CPMA lets you queue your jumps (as long as you hit the jump button at some point between leaving and touching the ground, it'll go), and Warsow straight up lets you hold the button down. In Natural Selection, you can't jump until after you've hit the ground, meaning you have to time it exactly with you're landing or else you lose speed. In theory that would make the game "more skilled" than the alternatives, but in practice everyone used annoying workarounds to not have to deal with it because it was a terrible piece of design. This is even less integral to the game than strafe jumping (you're basically going to stop doing it after the first minute or so) and nowhere near as deep, given that there's literally no thought involved and the primary "skill" is your ability to mash a button. It's just going to make the beginning of the game a massive pain in the ass for everyone who doesn't want to be 5 seconds behind on their build. It seems like a lot of people on these boards cheerfully mistake anything that makes the game harder for something that makes it inherently better. The two are not analogous. | ||
|
Half
United States2554 Posts
It seems like a lot of people on these boards cheerfully mistake anything that makes the game harder for something that makes it inherently better. The two are not analogous. Right, it just makes the game harder. Which is what many people want? | ||
|
DarkspearTribe
568 Posts
*new trick is found* "Omg noes I has to be faster now? Patch!" Come on people ,_, | ||
|
PTZ.
72 Posts
Looks like a cool find and technique but until I get loads better I honestly don't see this rather extreme hassle as being worth it to me. And even then I'm not sure. | ||
|
Cofo
United States1388 Posts
It's a lot like splitting your workers at the beginning of a match (in SC2, not SC1). A lot of people never do it, and never notice any difference. Some people do it, and get their second worker out .2 seconds faster. So what? The bottom line is this: If you don't do this trick, your opponent does, and you lose, the trick was NOT the reason. And that's why there's no reason to get rid of it. | ||
|
figq
12519 Posts
On September 13 2010 13:12 Cofo wrote: Then it also shouldn't matter if they remove it, right?A lot of people complaining seem to think that doing this will be required to stay competitive. The advantage is there, sure, but it's miniscule. If you don't do it, and your opponent does you honestly, honestly, probably won't notice it. It's a lot like splitting your workers at the beginning of a match (in SC2, not SC1). A lot of people never do it, and never notice any difference. Some people do it, and get their second worker out .2 seconds faster. So what? The bottom line is this: If you don't do this trick, your opponent does, and you lose, the trick was NOT the reason. And that's why there's no reason to get rid of it. As this fine gentleman said: On September 13 2010 09:49 Swede wrote: In addition, there's 0 spectator value in this.If Idra and Tester both do it against each other, they may as well not be doing it. | ||
|
Voyager I
United States260 Posts
On September 13 2010 12:56 Black Gun wrote: before this bug was discovered, less effort was required to remain competitive. i dont see why ppl can be so happy about having to do more work for basically the same outcome, as all the good player will have to do this, so it doesnt provide them any advantage over each other. but it means that the casual player and a player between casual and semipro will have less of a chance against someone of equal or even slightly minor strategical skill just because the other guy is good at spamming his keyboard. it doesnt add to the fun factor of playing sc2, it doesnt add to the fun factor of watching others play sc2, it wont provide the pros with additional strategical options as they will all do it anyway, it just makes playing sc2 more tedious. i dont see how anyone can consider this a good thing unless he is really keen on "schooling low apm noobs" with his gosu skill.... imho strategy games should be about strategy and not about who can click the fastest in a totally battle-unrelated situation. lets reserve the high apm situations for multitask-heavy midgame harass and microing the big battles. i just dont see the fun in microing my workers without any decision-making involved and without any interaction with my opponent. basically this whole discussion evolves around oldschool bw players welcoming this as they are used to clickfests and babysitting silly AI pathfinding more than players with some other background, so they expect to get an advantage out of this. Do you have any plans for next weekend? Maybe dinner and a movie? | ||
|
TitleRug
United States651 Posts
edit: I think they should semi-patch this trick so maybe 3.5% instead of 7% | ||
|
Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
They won't ALL use it right away, so a few will get a small advantage in earlier games and eventually it may very well even out, but that's just how things go So some pro players will gain a tiny advantage for a (relatively speaking) tiny amount of time, and then this trick won't do anything? That is ridiculous. The trick will still fuck off players like you see in this thread, who think it's stupid. Basically, in the end, it's going to annoy more people than it satisfies. And Blizzard doesn't want that, and nor should anyone who wants the game to do well. | ||
|
Cofo
United States1388 Posts
On September 13 2010 13:13 figq wrote: Then it also shouldn't matter if they remove it, right? In theory, no, it shouldn't. But if it doesn't matter, why go through an effort to change it so it still doesn't matter? | ||
|
TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
| ||
|
kzn
United States1218 Posts
On September 13 2010 12:56 Black Gun wrote: before this bug was discovered, less effort was required to remain competitive. i dont see why ppl can be so happy about having to do more work for basically the same outcome, as all the good player will have to do this, so it doesnt provide them any advantage over each other. but it means that the casual player and a player between casual and semipro will have less of a chance against someone of equal or even slightly minor strategical skill just because the other guy is good at spamming his keyboard. It is unequivocally a bad thing for competitiveness to require less effort. That said, people are also massively naive if they think the existence of babysitting APM sinks has no costs to gameplay - the costs are there, and they are identical to the gains until the strategic skill cap is reached (ie, nowhere in the remotely close future for sc2). Every bit of effort a player puts into mastering this tricks like this fiddly little bastard is effort they cannot and thus do not put into mastering strategic skills, like scouting, learning build orders, reacting to changing circumstances, and so forth. I've said it before, and nobody even got close to presenting an opposing argument: SC2 (and all games) exist on a continuum of execution skills and strategic skills. If it takes 300apm merely to 6pool someone, do you really think you're going to see fast expand macro builds in the future? Fuck no you aren't, the entire metagame is capped into 1base plays by the apm requirements and human limitations. Likewise, if it takes zero execution skill to macro and make a 200/200 army, do you think the best player will always win? Again, fuck no. In any game with imperfect information it is and will always be possible for some complete idiot to get lucky and massively counter the other player's army, and win instantly because of that. There is no right answer to this argument. Some people prefer games where execution skills are so important that casuals will never have a shot at winning until they master them, and some prefer games where strategic skills separate the players from each other over a distribution of games, rather than a single game. At the top end, its obvious that all the serious players will master the execution skills, so I'm inclined to say games should be biased towards strategic skill if they intend to be competitive, but its really entirely a matter of opinion. | ||
| ||
