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Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
September 05 2010 17:40 GMT
#181
imho make a rule that only one official caster is obligatory, all the others can be kicked out by the players if they experience lag.
14 casters/spectators is ridiculous and unnecessary.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
September 05 2010 17:40 GMT
#182
On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:
On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:

Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups.


What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it?

c0rn1


This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another.


1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass
2) Streaming someone elses video and casting over it can be a pain in the ass
3) Any issues what-so-ever with the observers stream will have a knock-on effect on every other stream

Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
HaGuN
Profile Joined April 2010
United States154 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 17:42:10
September 05 2010 17:40 GMT
#183
If you lag a streamed tournament, this just shows you have no professional idea of how to rn a streamed game, its your fault a player for not liking the lag is not allowing a single caster in.

The only "professional" thing they have done was ban him for breaking the rules because they ignored him.

Crappy casted/streamed games like this make not only players want to stop joining these things, but also lose viewers.

ESL L2Organize your shit.
"Also Zerg has won recently so I don't understand why Zerg is receiving a buff."-BoxeR
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
September 05 2010 17:42 GMT
#184
On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.

Eh, where money is involved....people don't see such things because they don't want to (see the corruption in cricket atm). Even if it isn't a problem now it would be a good idea to pre-emptively resolve it.
Topsecret
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada54 Posts
September 05 2010 17:42 GMT
#185
Hopefully IdrA and MorroW boycott ESL.

These organizations need to realize, without the pro players, your league is NOTHING. With the amount of competition out there today for prize money and bigger tournaments, I don't see why these organizations can't realize this.

I would have done the same in MorroW's shoes and wouldn't be a bit sorry about it.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
September 05 2010 17:43 GMT
#186
On September 06 2010 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:
On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:
On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:

Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups.


What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it?

c0rn1


This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another.


1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass
Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.


Assuming they're good, it is actually the best way to do it. Koreans in SC:BW have been having a non-caster observe for the camera for years because they can focus purely on the game instead of having to cast. That makes them less prone to missing action or things on the mini-map.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Grimjim
Profile Joined May 2010
United States395 Posts
September 05 2010 17:43 GMT
#187
On September 06 2010 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:38 Floophead_III wrote:
On September 06 2010 02:09 c0rn1 wrote:
On September 06 2010 01:59 HolydaKing wrote:

Well IdrA is coming from BW and in the BW scene it was quite common to cast from replays. For Wc3 players that's absurd, since it hardly ever happened there. Scores spread too fast to cast from replays at such daily tournaments. At TSL for example it worked fine, but i doubt it could go well at for example Go4SC2 cups.


What is so hard to have 1-2 dedicated ESL streamer join the game, stream it in HQ without casting and the casters can connect to it?

c0rn1


This is a good idea. Honestly, there's no reason for casters to be actually IN the game. Have a dedicated observer and external casters. I completely agree with Morrow's decision, even if it's not necessarily well mannered and he was arrogant about it. Players should NEVER have to suffer because of casters, they should be two separate entities that don't affect one another.


1) Casting without direct control of the camera is a pain in the ass
2) Streaming someone elses video and casting over it can be a pain in the ass
3) Any issues what-so-ever with the observers stream will have a knock-on effect on every other stream

Point 1 is the biggest issue though, try it sometime, it sucks.


1) Trying to play with 14 laggers is a pain in the ass.
2) Constant interruption and delay while playing is a pain in the ass.
3) Without the player playing, there is no tournament. So I'd rather have 1 caster and a tournament than 14 casters and no tournament.

The players are more important than the multitude of shitty casters fucking up their game. Nobody needs 14 casters.
I am serious. And my name is Shirley.
NeVeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1352 Posts
September 05 2010 17:43 GMT
#188
On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
Yeah, if games are being live-casted, I don't see what is stopping players from cheating by having one of their friends message them in game about what the other player is doing...


The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.


Fact of the matter is that if there is a lot of money on the line, some people are still probably going to do it.
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-05 17:48:26
September 05 2010 17:44 GMT
#189
On September 06 2010 02:42 Yaotzin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
The fact that it's fucking obvious if that's happening because the player is tech-switching and countering things they can't even see. Even the merest suspicion of that tars a player's reputation.

Eh, where money is involved....people don't see such things because they don't want to (see the corruption in cricket atm). Even if it isn't a problem now it would be a good idea to pre-emptively resolve it.


Sure, it would be, which is why a buffered server would do the trick. Thing is I don't see anyone actually going out of their way to solve the problem, it's been known about for months and nobody has come up with a solution, just a lot of QQ over the fact that the issue exists.

1) Trying to play with 14 laggers is a pain in the ass.
2) Constant interruption and delay while playing is a pain in the ass.
3) Without the player playing, there is no tournament. So I'd rather have 1 caster and a tournament than 14 casters and no tournament.

The players are more important than the multitude of shitty casters fucking up their game. Nobody needs 14 casters.


We get the idea, 14 casters was ridiculous, if that was really the number. Nobody is disputing that. Fact is that Morrow banned everyone, including ESL's official streamer, which means ESL is not fulfilling their sponsorship obligations, which means the sponsors themselves aren't getting their money's worth, which means the money can very easily go bye-bye.

Accept that the fault is on both sides and do me a favour and don't use every possible opportunity to lay into 'shitty casters'. Caster bashing is getting very old, particularly from the people who don't seem to realise that casters are the reason money is getting injected into the scene in any meaningful manner.

One last thing I might add, spectators will watch anything. I had 27,000 unique viewers over the course of 10 hours, casting games that ranged from bronze level to low diamond, WHILE THE MLG WAS STREAMING AT THE SAME TIME. The players are not as important as the fanbois make them out to be. You can cast literally anything, as long as you make it entertaining and people will still watch. Instead of the needless animosity, much of which I might add is coming from community members that don't actually contribute to ESPORTS in any way beyond posting on a forum, some cooperation and real communication between casters, players, sponsors and tournament organisers is required, because if you take any one of those away from the equation, ESPORTS doesn't work.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
rasnj
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1959 Posts
September 05 2010 17:44 GMT
#190
On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...

What is then? I see three options:
1) Don't play in ESL tournaments
2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy.
3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies.
In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option:
4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out.
However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
September 05 2010 17:45 GMT
#191
Lol 14 casters, what a load of bull. Either have one caster or none. I understand some casters are better than others, but when a caster's lag affects the game, they gotta leave. If anything, they should be banning casters who lag _and_ then refuse to leave.

Most caster's are a dime a dozen - there's obviously a select few that are above that. But if you aren't a premiere caster, I don't understand why they are involved at all.
With no power comes no responsibility?
Zrah
Profile Joined July 2010
Lithuania55 Posts
September 05 2010 17:47 GMT
#192
Morrow playing Zotac cup so it's no problem for him :D
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
September 05 2010 17:48 GMT
#193
Unless all players are gathered at the same place for an event, then I think the cast should be from replays players upload after the games. A lot of you are fans of players and think, "oh no this guy would never cheat," but we see where that got us in the TSL 2 ladder process. Some people are just scumbags who'll cheat in the worst way when money is on the line, and without any sort of oversight in live streams cheating is almost inevitable.
Comrade
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden102 Posts
September 05 2010 17:48 GMT
#194
On September 06 2010 00:59 apm66 wrote:
Sounds like MorroW has a really big ego now!

MorroW:
"I told them that I regret it"
"but I don't"
"xD"


what does that have to do with ego? Anyone could say that, this discussion is really really dumb.
Fighting capitalist macro everywhere
Topsecret
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada54 Posts
September 05 2010 17:48 GMT
#195
On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...

What is then? I see three options:
1) Don't play in ESL tournaments
2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy.
3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies.
In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option:
4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out.
However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).


This.

They are completely unwilling and therefore the players should stand up for what they believe.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
September 05 2010 17:50 GMT
#196
On September 06 2010 02:44 rasnj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...

What is then? I see three options:
1) Don't play in ESL tournaments
2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy.
3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies.
In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option:
4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out.
However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).


umm, how about not starting the next game with no caster without saying anything

it's pretty simple really.. just refuse to play your next game with any more than just the official caster in the game.
LostDevil
Profile Joined March 2005
Fiji283 Posts
September 05 2010 17:50 GMT
#197
you allow 14 casters in your games and call morrow unprofessional? he obviously should have refused to play until he talked to the management of the tournament and told him the concerns. however, its a 2 week ban and not a big deal at all. its becoming a bigger deal for the tournaments if they keep pseudo banning the top players because the tournaments dont think ahead when creating rules.

just cast replays. release them to registered and approved casters first so they can get off on their ustream account viewing #s because no one else has seen the games yet.

A poker term sums this up nicely: LOLDONKAMENTS
Lennon
Profile Joined February 2010
United Kingdom2275 Posts
September 05 2010 17:50 GMT
#198
A rule needs to implemented where only a certain amount of casters can join the game.
It was like this in WC3. The maximum number of overall observers is 10. Casters had priority over everyone else so team mates had to leave the game. It was ridiculous.
DorN
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany90 Posts
September 05 2010 17:53 GMT
#199
On September 06 2010 02 rasnj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2010 02:34 travis wrote:
If they want to address that there are too many people in their games that is not the way to go about it...

What is then? I see three options:
1) Don't play in ESL tournaments
2) Just continue letting the ESL make your games laggy.
3) Break the rules, and perhaps spark a discussion that forces a change in policies.
In other tournaments there is a fourth, optimal option:
4) Inform the tournament organizers of the problem and let them sort it out.
However ESL have proven that they will not help resolve the problem (at least no prior to this incident).


5) Tell everyone except of Take to leave but thats too hard i guess
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
September 05 2010 17:53 GMT
#200
14 casters? Are you fucking kidding me? hahaha

of all SC2 tournaments I've seen so far (not many actually), The King of the Beta was the most professional and exciting to watch.

The rest was just meh. Even the GSL I'm not following at all.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
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