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Is SC2 Boring To Watch? - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
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GiantEnemyCrab
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada503 Posts
August 30 2010 01:25 GMT
#321
idk what people expect from terran always whining
i get shit talk from people even after i lose saying "play a real race" =/
i been terran my whole life =(
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
love1another
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1844 Posts
August 30 2010 01:28 GMT
#322
On August 30 2010 10:25 GiantEnemyCrab wrote:
idk what people expect from terran always whining
i get shit talk from people even after i lose saying "play a real race" =/
i been terran my whole life =(

Seriously. I was like born terran. Weren't we all?
"I'm learning more and more that TL isn't the place to go for advice outside of anything you need in college. It's like you guys just make up your own fantasy world shit and post it as if you've done it." - Chill
Gnaix
Profile Joined February 2009
United States438 Posts
August 30 2010 01:34 GMT
#323
On August 29 2010 04:42 Eiserne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 04:41 Kennigit wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:40 cr4ckshot wrote:
If you want to see innovative play, big money tournaments aren't the source. You may get a glimpse of creative plays, but that's pretty much it.

What sort of evidence do you have for a statement like this?

It's logical reasoning. Big money encourages plays that win. Innovative is unreliable.

So Bisu's corsair dt was not innovative when he used it to win against zerg?
one thing that sc2 has over bw is the fact that I can actually manage my hotkeys
love1another
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1844 Posts
August 30 2010 01:37 GMT
#324
On August 30 2010 10:34 Gnaix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2010 04:42 Eiserne wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:41 Kennigit wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:40 cr4ckshot wrote:
If you want to see innovative play, big money tournaments aren't the source. You may get a glimpse of creative plays, but that's pretty much it.

What sort of evidence do you have for a statement like this?

It's logical reasoning. Big money encourages plays that win. Innovative is unreliable.

So Bisu's corsair dt was not innovative when he used it to win against zerg?

It won games. That's the key thing! Using builds that depend on luck is not a good way to win money over a long period of time.
"I'm learning more and more that TL isn't the place to go for advice outside of anything you need in college. It's like you guys just make up your own fantasy world shit and post it as if you've done it." - Chill
nicoaldo
Profile Joined March 2009
Argentina939 Posts
August 30 2010 01:54 GMT
#325
I can´t see why the OP is complaining about a lack of creativity when the last 300 professional PvTs in SC1 are mostly goons and zealots with arbiters vs tanks, vultures and sci vessels; ZvTs are 2 or 3 hat muta into lurker/ling .. etc.
Players find builds that work and give you the win if you play better than your opponent, period (if you ever listened to Day9, who has a shitload of knowledge and experience in the subject you would know what i´m talking about).
Games are still great because of all the little individual plays/micro battles and adaptations they have, and there were also very intense games in the MLG (Like Last Shadow vs Slush), i remember seeing cheese from TT1 for example, and amazing micro battles in the semi´s and finals PvPs... some games were great, some weren´t.. game is still pretty new, if you don´t like the important tourneys because players take it seriously just don´t watch them.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
August 30 2010 02:02 GMT
#326
On August 30 2010 10:54 nicoaldo wrote:
I can´t see why the OP is complaining about a lack of creativity when the last 300 professional PvTs in SC1 are mostly goons and zealots with arbiters vs tanks, vultures and sci vessels; ZvTs are 2 or 3 hat muta into lurker/ling .. etc.

At least those are fun to watch and those army compositions have a fun dynamic to them. MMM ball is essentially a moving blob of death when stimmed.
Writerptrk
remag
Profile Joined August 2009
Germany354 Posts
August 30 2010 02:15 GMT
#327
Since Huk won y that should be boring and something has to be wrong TT
BearEatBeets
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10 Posts
August 30 2010 04:34 GMT
#328
I don't know what your talking about. I love MMM getting STORMED TO DEATH!! COULD WATCH IT ALL DAY
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
August 30 2010 04:39 GMT
#329
I loved this MLG. Sure the quality of the games could haven been better and it was a shame the good zergs got knocked out so early, but the production values and the coverage was pretty awesome. I can't wait for the next MLG (Dallas?).
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
August 30 2010 04:41 GMT
#330
sorry..... but MLG WAS AMAZING
was so fun to be there, maybe the stream wasn't amazing though i dno?
www.root-gaming.com
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 04:42:28
August 30 2010 04:42 GMT
#331
The OP does a really good job explaing why TvP is blehblehbleh.

It doesn't need to be imba or for Terran to be technically OP for MMM to make it shitty.
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
August 30 2010 04:47 GMT
#332
where can i see the finals? =/
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
August 30 2010 10:05 GMT
#333
On August 30 2010 09:28 Ndugu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 06:08 7mk wrote:
On August 30 2010 04:46 Carthage wrote:
On August 30 2010 04:38 Jugan wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:50 Ndugu wrote:

Imho changing Vikings to 8+6 to light would allow Phoenixes to counter them for cost (well, assuming they have to fly over marines heads to shoot the vikings, not really, but it would still be good to try it).


Yeah except that phoenix > vikings already.


What's the math behind this? I've never actually seen phoenixes take on vikings successfully.


dunno how it is for bigger numbers but I coincidentally had 3 phoenixes fight 3 vikings today in the unit tester. The phoenix barely barely won.
The vikings are of course a bit cheaper though. I personally prefer phoenix speed over viking range though.


Phoenixes and Vikings are about on par one to one, however Vikings cost slightly less, so for cost Vikings win or its even. However, in order to fight the Vikings, a Phoenix must fly over the MMM ball, whereas, due to their 10 range, the Vikings should ALWAYS be safe from getting shot from GTA units. Since both vikings and phoenixes are balanced so as to SUCK versus ground to air units, this puts phoenixs in a HORRIBLE position against Vikings. Hence, in late-game, a Terran can spawn marauders without fear since they will ALWAYS maintain aerial superiority.

If Protoss could counter Vikings for cost with Phoenixes, vying for aerial superiority would be a part of the matchup, much like it is in TvT. Much cooler and more interesting late-game. Sadly, Marauder/Vikings makes PvT late-game boring as hell and anyone who wants to debate that hasn't watched a high-level PvT that lasted past the mid-game.


I disagree but this is not the thread for balance discussions anyways.

On August 30 2010 07:23 Graven wrote:
Of course. The reason you're seeing all these new Terran pros is because the race is OP. You honestly think guys like Silver and Drewbie (no offense) are in the same league as players like Idra, Cool, etc. It's so obvious, it's silly that it even needs to be debated. It's something that needs time to fix though -- I've been saying it since the Beta, but Blizzard needs a balanced game for SC2 to succeed as an esport, but it doesn't yet appear as bad as it actually is. We have to wait until really good players start using Terran, turning the game into a joke.


"new Terran pros" like.... Drewbie?
What?
Have you been around for SC1?

Btw. I completely forgot to say that I thought this was a very well organised tournament with high production value. It was a smooth watching experience and when the matches were great it was a lot of fun. The matches werent always that great (PvP..) but thats just bad luck. I still have some issues with husky and HD's commentary but still, thumbs up for this tourney.
beep boop
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-30 17:12:19
August 30 2010 17:10 GMT
#334
Matches were boring as hell as far as I'm concerned. Many of the 'pros' at MLG had lack-luster APM, poor use of macro mechanics and above all else boring cheese and or cookie cutter builds. I really hope a patch from Blizzard hits soon because if the quality of matches at other tournaments continues this same route then e-sports SC2 is gonna die before it even gets fully going. There is no way that a viewer base will be sustained if boring, predictable matches become the norm. With the exception of one or two series in the MLG I could predict the winner of each match about five to seven minutes in - usually based on how the first battle goes. A game that can be decided by who wins the first (and sadly usually the only non-totally-one-sided) battle is not only not balanced, but boring, un-entertaining and just generally isn't good. I don't know whether it is the lack of skill for the average American player or simply that the game is too easy to play but something needs to be changed - and soon. If I have to watch another boring tourney like this again I'm going back to watching BW.
i-bonjwa
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
August 30 2010 17:35 GMT
#335
On August 30 2010 10:54 nicoaldo wrote:
I can´t see why the OP is complaining about a lack of creativity when the last 300 professional PvTs in SC1 are mostly goons and zealots with arbiters vs tanks, vultures and sci vessels; ZvTs are 2 or 3 hat muta into lurker/ling .. etc.
Players find builds that work and give you the win if you play better than your opponent, period (if you ever listened to Day9, who has a shitload of knowledge and experience in the subject you would know what i´m talking about).

At least these compositions take skill to control, and different builds leading to them have different timings. Both protoss and terran in bw have a ton of builds to lead to the mid game, and late game is fun to watch with arbiters, sv's and general control of the armies.
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
August 30 2010 17:48 GMT
#336
On August 31 2010 02:35 0mgVitaminE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 10:54 nicoaldo wrote:
I can´t see why the OP is complaining about a lack of creativity when the last 300 professional PvTs in SC1 are mostly goons and zealots with arbiters vs tanks, vultures and sci vessels; ZvTs are 2 or 3 hat muta into lurker/ling .. etc.
Players find builds that work and give you the win if you play better than your opponent, period (if you ever listened to Day9, who has a shitload of knowledge and experience in the subject you would know what i´m talking about).

At least these compositions take skill to control, and different builds leading to them have different timings. Both protoss and terran in bw have a ton of builds to lead to the mid game, and late game is fun to watch with arbiters, sv's and general control of the armies.


Exactly Vitamin, exactly. In Brood War army compositions could be made viable through unit control, and while the LATE GAME may have revolved around very specific compositions getting to that point was more or less up to the players. In SC2 this is simply not the case - when a battle occurs between Player A and Player B, and Player A has the 'right composition' to beat B's - there is no amount of unit control, micro, positioning, or strategy B can do to win, Player A's army will steamroll through with a simply A-move.
i-bonjwa
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
August 30 2010 18:30 GMT
#337
On August 31 2010 02:48 SichuanPanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2010 02:35 0mgVitaminE wrote:
On August 30 2010 10:54 nicoaldo wrote:
I can´t see why the OP is complaining about a lack of creativity when the last 300 professional PvTs in SC1 are mostly goons and zealots with arbiters vs tanks, vultures and sci vessels; ZvTs are 2 or 3 hat muta into lurker/ling .. etc.
Players find builds that work and give you the win if you play better than your opponent, period (if you ever listened to Day9, who has a shitload of knowledge and experience in the subject you would know what i´m talking about).

At least these compositions take skill to control, and different builds leading to them have different timings. Both protoss and terran in bw have a ton of builds to lead to the mid game, and late game is fun to watch with arbiters, sv's and general control of the armies.


Exactly Vitamin, exactly. In Brood War army compositions could be made viable through unit control, and while the LATE GAME may have revolved around very specific compositions getting to that point was more or less up to the players. In SC2 this is simply not the case - when a battle occurs between Player A and Player B, and Player A has the 'right composition' to beat B's - there is no amount of unit control, micro, positioning, or strategy B can do to win, Player A's army will steamroll through with a simply A-move.

Agreed, it's really sad to see the concepts of "Terrible Terrible Damage" (Units overall doing tons of damage, especially in Lower Tiers) and little to no unit microing ( A lot of "Micro" oriented spells though; Graviton Beam lol, Neural when people actually attempt to use them, people feeling gosu with Force Field) take over the game really.

It's all about unit composition now, and some very basic and common sense practices like flanking.

BW was a great game because there was a lot of control required to engage in a battle ( Reavers, Lurkers, Marine and Medic control, Dragoon control, Siege Tanks, etc) but in Sc2 it's just all 1a and so we lose all this awe and shock we had around manual control.

It's not like there's absolutely no control but the difference between BW and Sc2 is just so drastic
All the pros got dat Ichie.
Jonray
Profile Joined August 2010
United States37 Posts
August 30 2010 19:44 GMT
#338
I always wonder when people get all nostalgic for how great Brood War matches were ... is that the BW people are playing today? Or was it the state of the game 12 years ago when BW was first released?

I hate to ring the "the game is pretty new" bell, but ... well ... it is. A year from now I bet we'll be laughing at someone who tries an MM ball because changes will have been applied to the game, players will have worked out other responses, and in general the game we'll be playing then won't be the same as this one.
Anything is possible, if we're willing to lose our minds to it.
EppE
Profile Joined July 2010
United States221 Posts
August 30 2010 20:02 GMT
#339
I got really tired of watching the same Morrow/Lz builds by every Terran that went against the few Zerg opponents there. Then it became MMM. Protoss were the only interesting ones to watch.
ZaaaaaM
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1828 Posts
August 30 2010 20:07 GMT
#340
On August 30 2010 10:37 love1another wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2010 10:34 Gnaix wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:42 Eiserne wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:41 Kennigit wrote:
On August 29 2010 04:40 cr4ckshot wrote:
If you want to see innovative play, big money tournaments aren't the source. You may get a glimpse of creative plays, but that's pretty much it.

What sort of evidence do you have for a statement like this?

It's logical reasoning. Big money encourages plays that win. Innovative is unreliable.

So Bisu's corsair dt was not innovative when he used it to win against zerg?

It won games. That's the key thing! Using builds that depend on luck is not a good way to win money over a long period of time.

And since when does innovation require luck?
no dude, the question
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