|
On August 28 2010 11:05 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 10:59 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 10:56 iEchoic wrote:
I still don't get the BC nerf. Void rays and corrupters handled them fine and they're exciting capital ships that nobody is going to build anymore. They were already sort of a novelty unit, what's the point of this? They should be able to beat ground units like stalkers, that's why they're the highest tier Terran unit. Their air attack was their weakness and now the entire unit is a weakness. Corruptors handle them fine, Void Rays is a bit of a toss-up; if the BCs start the fight with Yamato volleys on the Void Rays, then the BCs win handily. Without Yamato (if BCs get hit by Feedback for instance), the Void Rays will win. I used to think that as well, but I've been doing BC-heavy lategames for a while now, and even with Yamato, BCs will lose. Generally the opponent will have 3:2 ratio voidrays to your BCs. If you select yamato to kill 2/3rds of his voids, that process and the yamato charge takes about as long as it does for his voids to charge (and your BCs are taking damage while charging). Following that point, 1/3 of the void rays can literally kill all of your battlecruisers fully charged. Charged void rays are literally the hardest counter to BCs in the entire game and absolutely shred them to pieces. That's a piece of theory that's been floating around that I haven't really found to have been true in actual games.
It's not theory, it's been gameplay tested (by myself and others). By gameplay tested, I mean I've tried it out in custom maps- if you say your experience in actual 1v1 matches is different, then I really can't argue with that. Are you sure these fights were made at upgrade parity?
|
On August 28 2010 11:08 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 11:05 iEchoic wrote:On August 28 2010 10:59 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 10:56 iEchoic wrote:
I still don't get the BC nerf. Void rays and corrupters handled them fine and they're exciting capital ships that nobody is going to build anymore. They were already sort of a novelty unit, what's the point of this? They should be able to beat ground units like stalkers, that's why they're the highest tier Terran unit. Their air attack was their weakness and now the entire unit is a weakness. Corruptors handle them fine, Void Rays is a bit of a toss-up; if the BCs start the fight with Yamato volleys on the Void Rays, then the BCs win handily. Without Yamato (if BCs get hit by Feedback for instance), the Void Rays will win. I used to think that as well, but I've been doing BC-heavy lategames for a while now, and even with Yamato, BCs will lose. Generally the opponent will have 3:2 ratio voidrays to your BCs. If you select yamato to kill 2/3rds of his voids, that process and the yamato charge takes about as long as it does for his voids to charge (and your BCs are taking damage while charging). Following that point, 1/3 of the void rays can literally kill all of your battlecruisers fully charged. Charged void rays are literally the hardest counter to BCs in the entire game and absolutely shred them to pieces. That's a piece of theory that's been floating around that I haven't really found to have been true in actual games. It's not theory, it's been gameplay tested (by myself and others). By gameplay tested, I mean I've tried it out in custom maps- if you say your experience in actual 1v1 matches is different, then I really can't argue with that. Are you sure these fights were made at upgrade parity?
I played a game a couple days ago where my army got completely destroyed by voids, even after yamatoing. I'll have to check out replays for upgrade parity and report back. I'll post it if it's really damning.
BCs lose to voids either way because of feedback. All you have to do is engage, feedback, and then send in the void rays.
|
The only change I see being a big issue in the future is the Zealot build-time. I feel like 9pool (like what madfrog did vs whitera) or 6pool is gonna become a problem for Protoss. Then again, its the Protoss players' fault for doing all these cheesy proxy/warp gate zealot rushes and 4gate all-ins. Other than that, I don't see the other changes being game-breaking, and we'll see a more balanced game.
|
On August 28 2010 11:11 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 11:08 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 11:05 iEchoic wrote:On August 28 2010 10:59 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 10:56 iEchoic wrote:
I still don't get the BC nerf. Void rays and corrupters handled them fine and they're exciting capital ships that nobody is going to build anymore. They were already sort of a novelty unit, what's the point of this? They should be able to beat ground units like stalkers, that's why they're the highest tier Terran unit. Their air attack was their weakness and now the entire unit is a weakness. Corruptors handle them fine, Void Rays is a bit of a toss-up; if the BCs start the fight with Yamato volleys on the Void Rays, then the BCs win handily. Without Yamato (if BCs get hit by Feedback for instance), the Void Rays will win. I used to think that as well, but I've been doing BC-heavy lategames for a while now, and even with Yamato, BCs will lose. Generally the opponent will have 3:2 ratio voidrays to your BCs. If you select yamato to kill 2/3rds of his voids, that process and the yamato charge takes about as long as it does for his voids to charge (and your BCs are taking damage while charging). Following that point, 1/3 of the void rays can literally kill all of your battlecruisers fully charged. Charged void rays are literally the hardest counter to BCs in the entire game and absolutely shred them to pieces. That's a piece of theory that's been floating around that I haven't really found to have been true in actual games. It's not theory, it's been gameplay tested (by myself and others). By gameplay tested, I mean I've tried it out in custom maps- if you say your experience in actual 1v1 matches is different, then I really can't argue with that. Are you sure these fights were made at upgrade parity? I played a game a couple days ago where my army got completely destroyed by voids, even after yamatoing. I'll have to check out replays for upgrade parity and report back. I'll post it if it's really damning. BCs lose to voids either way because of feedback. All you have to do is engage, feedback, and then send in the void rays.
But then you're in the HT Feedback vs. Ghost EMP game. Maybe the 'toss does have the upper hand in Void Ray / Templar vs. BC / Ghost, but it's not like the Terran doesn't have options. It's not a very hard counter to BCs IMO, and all the other current options (mostly just Stalkers) are kinda crappy.
|
MMMMMM i'm liking these changes. I'm just kinda worries about making all the damage lower. One major difference between WC3 and SCBW/SC2 is the health/damage ratio. WC3 units have a lot of health compared to SC2, providing more time to micro. SC2 is just the opposite. Just something that popped into my head while reading this.
But yes.... CHAT CHANNELS!! 
Channel TL is going to be flooded i'm sure.
|
On August 28 2010 09:21 Yaotzin wrote:
Nerfing opponents == buffing Zerg.
MMM isn't imba against P...
Play vs a non moronic terran then come back and say that, without storm you'll never beat terran 1v1, even colossus blow dick because vikings are so strong, and guess what?
You get emped and youre fucked
gg no re you arent going to beat them head to head
|
On August 28 2010 11:18 sLiniss wrote:MMMMMM i'm liking these changes. I'm just kinda worries about making all the damage lower. One major difference between WC3 and SCBW/SC2 is the health/damage ratio. WC3 units have a lot of health compared to SC2, providing more time to micro. SC2 is just the opposite. Just something that popped into my head while reading this. But yes.... CHAT CHANNELS!! Channel TL is going to be flooded i'm sure.
Fear not, my friend; SC2 battles are very short and bloody, even by BW standards. If anything, a little less damage overall brings SC2 closer to BW in this sense.
|
OMG CHAT CHANNELS and a better custom games interface!!
Awesome!!
|
On August 28 2010 06:08 Droodjerky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 05:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The tank slight nerf is odd to me, because clumps of lings and banelings will still die in one hit, in tvz the only change is that hydras will live a little longer... Well, it makes it so the Zergling health and Tanks damage are Equal. Meaning that Zerglings will take 2 shots to kill with +1 armor. It should be easy enough to keep ahead in upgrades against Mech. Hydralisks will always die in 3 shots now (a one hit buff). This is a rather nice buff vs Mech, IMHO. Edit: At the 50% range, will Zerglings now take 3 shots to kill instead of 2 O.o (35/2 = 18 or 35/2 = 17)?
Once terran gets +1 vehicle damage, lings/banelings will get 1 shot no matter what.
+2 vehicle damage will also 2 shot hydralisks, but zerg can get +2 armor to set it back to 3 shots. +3 vehicle damage will 2 shot hydralisks no matter what. The one health regeneration may come into play here, as well.
|
On August 28 2010 11:06 Volkov wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 10:51 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 10:46 Volkov wrote:On August 28 2010 10:34 Zato-1 wrote:On August 28 2010 10:10 Volkov wrote:
Also, anything about protoss anti-air? They don't seem to think it's a problem. But let's see: Ghosts hard counter HTs, Vikings OWN Colossi and Void Rays. Phoenixes are useless. Completely disagree.Phoenix are on cost-efficiency parity against Vikings, deal very well with Ravens (which are otherwise very problematic to deal with due to PDD), can harass with Graviton Beam, take out Medivacs... they are a pretty good unit in the TvP matchup, IMO. Complaining about Vikings > Void Rays would be like complaining about Speedlings > Marauders; some units are designed to be cost-efficient against others. You are right, I really phrased that poorly. I meant that Phoenixes are useless as anti-air against vikings. I wouldn't call them cost efficient simply because of vikings' range. Everything else you said about Phoenixes is true, I didn't mean to question that. Vikings have more range, Phoenixes move faster and can shoot on the run. In my experience, this difference doesn't necessarily give the Vikings the advantage; they can harass better thanks to their longer range, but Phoenixes can always cut their losses and run away. Meanwhile, if your Vikings get caught out of position by superior Phoenix numbers, you can say goodbye to all your Vikings- they have no chance of getting away. EDIT: My point is, Viking vs. Phoenix isn't an unfair matchup, or at least nowhere near unfair enough to merit balance changes, IMO. My original point was this - Vikings counter colossi perfectly, and phoenixes, even if they do in fact take on vikings in certain situations, do not help. Because of vikings' range. Sure, phoenixes can fly in there - and be eaten alive by MMM. I've never really seen vikings just patrolling the map looking for things (in PvT that is), so the "Phoenixes will always catch them" just seems like a moot point. Although it probably is true.
1on1 viks lose to phoenix by 2 rounds of shots in greater #'s they lose just the same. People saying and thinking things like phoenixs are bad is what hold players back.
|
These nerfs are good.
I think in SC2 the games are too quick, and battles finish too fast.
|
On August 28 2010 11:26 Smurfz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 06:08 Droodjerky wrote:On August 28 2010 05:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The tank slight nerf is odd to me, because clumps of lings and banelings will still die in one hit, in tvz the only change is that hydras will live a little longer... Well, it makes it so the Zergling health and Tanks damage are Equal. Meaning that Zerglings will take 2 shots to kill with +1 armor. It should be easy enough to keep ahead in upgrades against Mech. Hydralisks will always die in 3 shots now (a one hit buff). This is a rather nice buff vs Mech, IMHO. Edit: At the 50% range, will Zerglings now take 3 shots to kill instead of 2 O.o (35/2 = 18 or 35/2 = 17)? Once terran gets +1 vehicle damage, lings/banelings will get 1 shot no matter what. +2 vehicle damage will also 2 shot hydralisks, but zerg can get +2 armor to set it back to 3 shots. +3 vehicle damage will 2 shot hydralisks no matter what. The one health regeneration may come into play here, as well.
So... don't let Terran get upgrades for Tanks I'm assuming. I think 1(+4) would've been better for upgrades. Then there's a point in keeping up in upgrades for zerglings. 
|
On August 28 2010 11:31 vica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 11:26 Smurfz wrote:On August 28 2010 06:08 Droodjerky wrote:On August 28 2010 05:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The tank slight nerf is odd to me, because clumps of lings and banelings will still die in one hit, in tvz the only change is that hydras will live a little longer... Well, it makes it so the Zergling health and Tanks damage are Equal. Meaning that Zerglings will take 2 shots to kill with +1 armor. It should be easy enough to keep ahead in upgrades against Mech. Hydralisks will always die in 3 shots now (a one hit buff). This is a rather nice buff vs Mech, IMHO. Edit: At the 50% range, will Zerglings now take 3 shots to kill instead of 2 O.o (35/2 = 18 or 35/2 = 17)? Once terran gets +1 vehicle damage, lings/banelings will get 1 shot no matter what. +2 vehicle damage will also 2 shot hydralisks, but zerg can get +2 armor to set it back to 3 shots. +3 vehicle damage will 2 shot hydralisks no matter what. The one health regeneration may come into play here, as well. So... don't let Terran get upgrades for Tanks I'm assuming. I think 1(+4) would've been better for upgrades. Then there's a point in keeping up in upgrades for zerglings.
Who will care if you one shot a zergling when the splash no longer deals enough damage to the surrounding banelings to kill them before all the bio is gone?
You will need twice the number of tanks now if you plan on going biomech in TvZ, which you obviously can't afford or your bio count will be too low. So you'll have to choose beween loosing all your bio because you have no tanks, or loosing all your bio because you don't have enough tanks.
|
On August 28 2010 10:55 Raiznhell wrote:
I'm actually starting to feel like I've wasted my 60 dollars buying this game now. I love terran. Been playing terran since i first started playing multiplayer starcraft years agao always have loved them. It sucks i got Windows 7 64-bit and BW is kinda messe dup a bit cuz I'd just completely ditch this agme until this patch is undone. I know my opinion counts for absolutely nothing in this game or forum but still in sc2 terran is the dryest race to watch already with the non-stop bio. I literally always take the more difficult strategies in meching and such just so i can feel like im playing my good old terran race. Using strategies like using bunkers and ravens OR hellions to replace vultures and doing siege pushes vs protoss despite knowing it's just overly easier but SIGNIFICANTLY less fun to just mass marauders and vikings and getting stim. it's not fun to use and not fun to watch and i dont feel cool being a terran player with the current pathetic state it's in of just get more rax and win. i dont feel like a clever strategist playing thsi race and this patch is now straight up telling me that i shoudl quit being stubborn and just go mass marauder. im so frustrated with this that im wastign time on this comment. now tanks do more damage unsieged to both light AND armored units. besides the range whats the point of siege mode now the single coolest ability in both starcrafts to me dont know why but yeah. they basically nerfed anythign that was interesting about terran in this patch. bunkers being used offensively, mech, cattlebruisers. doesn't it not feel natural to anyone that terrans have an infantry unit that can own anything gateway by protoss which is completely counter intuitive? anyways it's this hurts terran so much that you dont win unless you mass marauders then i might as well stop playing or just switch to zerg cuz they are my off race and are more interesting. because i know i aint gunna eb some sort of pro and when you dont have fun playing a game then whats the point. marauders aint fun imo. sorry for long rage post but i really want sc2 to be interesting to watch but right now the only matchup i find awesome to watch is zerg vs protoss because zvz and pvp are meh and anythign with terran i just see MMM all the time. sick of it.
Hmm... You say you've wasted 60 bucks on a game you have not fully explored yet. So let me get this straight. You bought this game to only play one strategy with one race? You're right, it was a bad investment for you.
How about you open your mind a little bit and try another race or some different strategies. Also, Terran is by far not the driest race. Terran is the most dynamic and has the most options.
You have a very unhealthy, close minded attitude and you should probably save the community from it by avoiding posting on the forums.
|
Thats a hell of a nerf to tanks. I guess it really depends on how much they reduce the splash, will that be the damage or the damage AND the radius? I dont mind the nerf against anything except lings/banes, if we cant blow those up with a siege tank line we have no answer for the ling/bane/muta combo, which already is very tricky to deal with.
Good on the reaper nerf, I think that was the real problem anyway. I am fortunate that I never used them anyway
|
You will need twice the number of tanks now if you plan on going biomech in TvZ, which you obviously can't afford or your bio count will be too low. So you'll have to choose beween loosing all your bio because you have no tanks, or loosing all your bio because you don't have enough tanks.
Think you're over exaggerating a bit. Tanks vs zerglings/banelings is the biggest blow to tanks with this nerf, but I doubt their usefulness against Hydralisks will go down the hole. Hydralisks are soooo (SOOOO) terrible against Tanks right now. Like, use hydras against tanks == autolose. Now, Hydralisks might be a bit more useful, but I still doubt they will be the optimum choice against Tanks due to their speed.
Besides, hellions and marines are both god against zerglings anyway.
TLDR; Siege Tanks will still have a lot of use in TvZ.
Though TBH I'm hoping for a Thor buff in this same patch. Their AOE needs to not be useless against decent players. Players will still be able to manually spread mutas to negate this AOE as much as possible, but it wont be so damn easy to do so.
|
I really like how they went about balancing gameplay (and the chat channels tidbit is a pleasant surprise. They do realize that we REALLY do want chat channels!) It'll be interesting to see how the siege tank change... well, changes things. It seems that although zealots are being nerfed by build time, they're going to be incredibly more effective against siege tanks. And now zerglings with 1 armor can withstand an un-upgraded siege tank shot, makes me wonder if that will matter at all.
Also boo, nerfed mass reaper It was fun while it lasted I guess.
|
On August 28 2010 11:44 Smurfz wrote:Show nested quote +You will need twice the number of tanks now if you plan on going biomech in TvZ, which you obviously can't afford or your bio count will be too low. So you'll have to choose beween loosing all your bio because you have no tanks, or loosing all your bio because you don't have enough tanks.
Think you're over exaggerating a bit. Tanks vs zerglings/banelings is the biggest blow to tanks with this nerf, but I doubt their usefulness against Hydralisks will go down the hole. Hydralisks are soooo (SOOOO) terrible against Tanks right now. Like, use hydras against tanks == autolose. Now, Hydralisks might be a bit more useful, but I still doubt they will be the optimum choice against Tanks due to their speed. Besides, hellions and marines are both god against zerglings anyway. TLDR; Siege Tanks will still have a lot of use in TvZ. Though TBH I'm hoping for a Thor buff in this same patch. Their AOE needs to not be useless against decent players. Players will still be able to manually spread mutas to negate this AOE as much as possible, but it wont be so damn easy to do so.
Where does hydralisks come into this? The fact that this is a huge blow to tank/marine vs ling/bling/muta is the entire problem. That was actually a pretty balanced build matchup in TvZ and was a very promising sign that sc2 could boil down to core builds with core units like broodwar, now instead it falls back into rock/paper/scissors nonsense.
|
Love the tank nerf
I think the biggest problem was not perhaps the fact that a zerg player could not beat a terran player, but the fact that it seemed like a terran player could just slow push his mech all day, and it would take a hell of a lot more micro for the zerg player to out manouver/beat this strat. Resulting in it feeling like you could have better control than your terran opponent and still lose. I think this tank nerf will just force the terran player to support his tanks with hellions perhaps, as well as a bio ball and will result in him needing to control/micro his units correctly to combat the zerg army as much as the zerg army needs to control/micro his army to combat the terran...
Thank you blizzard
|
The BC nerf and Zealot is most likely because of the lower leagues.
Diamond is only the top 20% of players. The bottom 80% are probably playing the game by randomly smashing their heads against their keyboards, metaphorically of course. But the minute a Bronze league Terran learns that massing BCs is very powerful, or that a Protoss learns a two gate proxy is very difficult to stop, they are going to anger a ton of the opponents they face.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
