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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:43 ziteNiA wrote: ye Marauders need some kind of nerf theyre too strong atm in all matchups Marauders are only problematic in ZvT insofar as they're one of an absurdly large number of things that Terran can do. In terms of the unit's strength by itself they're hardly a problem in ZvT. | ||
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Volkov
United States71 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:34 Zato-1 wrote: Completely disagree.Phoenix are on cost-efficiency parity against Vikings, deal very well with Ravens (which are otherwise very problematic to deal with due to PDD), can harass with Graviton Beam, take out Medivacs... they are a pretty good unit in the TvP matchup, IMO. Complaining about Vikings > Void Rays would be like complaining about Speedlings > Marauders; some units are designed to be cost-efficient against others. You are right, I really phrased that poorly. I meant that Phoenixes are useless as anti-air against vikings. I wouldn't call them cost efficient simply because of vikings' range. Everything else you said about Phoenixes is true, I didn't mean to question that. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:41 TheYango wrote: So they're like Hydras in BW ZvP before you get an appropriate Templar/Reaver count. The analogy is interesting, but there are a number of differences. For instance, Fast Expanding is suicide against early MM pressure in SC2; and if you're forced to play off of one base, then building up Colossus numbers is impossible. On the flipside, early game Zealot / Stalker / Sentry vs. MM is far more viable than early game Zealot / Dragoon vs. Mass Hydras in SC1. | ||
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Zonel
United States100 Posts
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BrightLegacy
United States56 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:42 Volkov wrote: My point with EMP is that it can't be dodged to lower its effect, versus storms are dodged routinely, even by poor players. My problem with feedbacking the ghosts is that not only you are using one spell per (relatively cheap) unit, compared to ghosts being able to EMP multiple HTs (thus making them useless), but also that the micro requirements are just asymmetric. Again, if your micro is so top notch that you can consistently feedback all the ghosts to prevent them from ever EMPing your casters and heavy units - then everything I am saying is irrelevant. But for most players that's not the case. I think a fair enough change here would be to make ghosts stand out a bit more. As it is now, HT are the most obvious unit in the game (besides archons) while ghosts blend in to a mm ball like they are cloaked, even if they aren't. If ghosts glowed in a similar fashion to HTs, then I think it would be much more possible to feed back them in time. My other suggestion would be to give feedback a radius of one, but that could make feedback a bit OP. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:46 Volkov wrote: You are right, I really phrased that poorly. I meant that Phoenixes are useless as anti-air against vikings. I wouldn't call them cost efficient simply because of vikings' range. Everything else you said about Phoenixes is true, I didn't mean to question that. Vikings have more range, Phoenixes move faster and can shoot on the run. In my experience, this difference doesn't necessarily give the Vikings the advantage; they can harass better thanks to their longer range, but Phoenixes can always cut their losses and run away. Meanwhile, if your Vikings get caught out of position by superior Phoenix numbers, you can say goodbye to all your Vikings- they have no chance of getting away. EDIT: My point is, Viking vs. Phoenix isn't an unfair matchup, or at least nowhere near unfair enough to merit balance changes, IMO. | ||
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Spinel720
United States40 Posts
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:52 Spinel720 wrote: 6 zerlings hit your ramp in steppes of war in 2 minutes and 44 seconds using 6 pool, and your first zealot comes out of the gate in 2 minutes and 50 seconds using 10 gate(that's using chronoboost of course) Then again, if you scout a 6 pool, you should finish your wall-in with a blocking Pylon, so you should be safe. What concerns me is that if your numbers are right, then other 'toss openings would find it extremely difficult to deal with a 6-pool. | ||
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:52 Spinel720 wrote: If you scout a 6 pool and dont pull your probes to your ramp and then complain Zealots are to slow, You're doing it wrong.6 zerlings hit your ramp in steppes of war in 2 minutes and 44 seconds using 6 pool, and your first zealot comes out of the gate in 2 minutes and 50 seconds using 10 gate(that's using chronoboost of course) | ||
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DarkSeerTurbo
United States105 Posts
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:12 Half wrote: You do realize that both those units have less range then they have sight, and toss has observers right? this is wrong. Ghosts have sight Range of 11 and abillity range of 10 (+2 for beeing a AoE) High Templar have a sight range of 10 and Feedback has a range of 9 150/150 compared to 50/200. OH NOES ghosts cost: 150m / 150g Templar cost:50m / 150g he is talked about the gas cost to reach high templars., wich is quite significant. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:56 iEchoic wrote: I still don't get the BC nerf. Void rays and corrupters handled them fine and they're exciting capital ships that nobody is going to build anymore. They were already sort of a novelty unit, what's the point of this? They should be able to beat ground units like stalkers, that's why they're the highest tier Terran unit. Their air attack was their weakness and now the entire unit is a weakness. Corruptors handle them fine, Void Rays is a bit of a toss-up; if the BCs start the fight with Yamato volleys on the Void Rays, then the BCs win handily. Without Yamato (if BCs get hit by Feedback for instance), the Void Rays will win. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:41 TheYango wrote: So they're like Hydras in BW ZvP before you get an appropriate Templar/Reaver count. Somehow I don't remember people complaining that Hydras fight Dragoons cost effectively or that they can kite zealots. But you turn a speed upgrade into a slowing attack, and it suddenly becomes overpowered. Ya except you have unlimited select, 10 damage to zealots, and 20 to stalkers as opposed to 10 vs shield 5 vs zealot and 10 vs goon. So basically it is zvp hydras if you get to kill every single zealot before you have to touch the dragoons. Then you get to rape the goons horribly with 1:1 ratio of hydras. Also storm dodging (going back to unlimited select) is ridiculously easy and storm is weakened so 1 or 2 storms isn't that big a deal. Ya that actually is a decent analogy edit: oh ya you also have like 40 more hit points edit2 : and you can't retreat versus them. | ||
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InfiniteIce
United States794 Posts
You have no idea. I still feel marauders may need a damage nerf to armored (not to unarmored) as they are simply way too good stimmed against buildings. But with the siege tank nerf, this might balance out. We'll just have to wait and see! Thanks for bringing this to my (and everybody else on TL.Net's) attention OP...I rarely check the official forums. Edit: one thing I don't understand is why people are QQ'ing about the BC nerf... Typical post: "OMG BCs I NEVER/THEY ARE NEVER USED ANYWAY WHY NERF OMGGGG".. If you never use them, why the hell are you crying? Trust me, the ground attack damage was needed...3 BC's can crush like 50 hydras. Or like 30 stalkers. (Obviously inflated numbers on the stalker part...or are they..?) | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:59 Zato-1 wrote: Corruptors handle them fine, Void Rays is a bit of a toss-up; if the BCs start the fight with Yamato volleys on the Void Rays, then the BCs win handily. Without Yamato (if BCs get hit by Feedback for instance), the Void Rays will win. I used to think that as well, but I've been doing BC-heavy lategames for a while now, and even with Yamato, BCs will lose. Generally the opponent will have 3:2 ratio voidrays to your BCs. If you select yamato to kill 2/3rds of his voids, that process and the yamato charge takes about as long as it does for his voids to charge (and your BCs are taking damage while charging). Following that point, 1/3 of the void rays can literally kill all of your battlecruisers fully charged. Charged void rays are the hardest counter to BCs in the entire game and absolutely shred them to pieces. That's a piece of theory that's been floating around that I haven't really found to have been true in actual games. | ||
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Donner
Germany91 Posts
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Volkov
United States71 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:51 Zato-1 wrote: Vikings have more range, Phoenixes move faster and can shoot on the run. In my experience, this difference doesn't necessarily give the Vikings the advantage; they can harass better thanks to their longer range, but Phoenixes can always cut their losses and run away. Meanwhile, if your Vikings get caught out of position by superior Phoenix numbers, you can say goodbye to all your Vikings- they have no chance of getting away. EDIT: My point is, Viking vs. Phoenix isn't an unfair matchup, or at least nowhere near unfair enough to merit balance changes, IMO. My original point was this - Vikings counter colossi perfectly, and phoenixes, even if they do in fact take on vikings in certain situations, do not help. Because of vikings' range. Sure, phoenixes can fly in there - and be eaten alive by MMM. I've never really seen vikings just patrolling the map looking for things (in PvT that is), so the "Phoenixes will always catch them" just seems like a moot point. Although it probably is true. | ||
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Spinel720
United States40 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:57 SC2Phoenix wrote: If you scout a 6 pool and dont pull your probes to your ramp and then complain Zealots are to slow, You're doing it wrong. to what do I owe this comment? please specify me where was I complaining? this is just a nice piece of fact people may be interested in knowing. | ||
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