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On December 22 2010 19:18 WellDuh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 12:43 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea). What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?! Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons. There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea. Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 12:50 RoarMan wrote:On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments. Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol. But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record. Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias? Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7. And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-)
I dont want anything.. it is quite clear boxer isnt dominant at sc2 like he was at BW same with nada and julyzerg. They are being outshone by their less successful (at BW) counterparts. Indicating that while skill in BW or wc3 helps one at sc2 up to a point, it is ALOT more to do with how much time/effort/oppertunity you have for sc2. Hence why i think none of the old dominant players will return to dominate at sc2 (simply because there is alot less of them than other eagre players). It seems you totally missed my point.. everyone does get a fresh start which is why I think it will be someone alot of us havent heard before that will come in and sweep the scene not flash, jaedong, grubby, nada or boxer. As for proof.. I dont have any, pure speculation based on the results so far of the GSLs and other tournaments.
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God... this whole time I was trying to say that there is no dominant player in SC2 and there won't be such in the next 2 years at least, because the game is new, strategies and their counters are being invented as we speak and in order for a dominant player to emerge, the "oh, we haven't seen this build/strat before" moments should be brought down to minimum. As of now there are many (MANY) ways an inferior player can beat a superior one. Which doesn't mean that the inferior player is better, he just surprises his opponent with something he hasn't seen or practiced against. Do you get where I'm going? Those all-ins, cheeses and other stuffs are going to disappear one day when it's all sorted out. There will be the fear of them existing, but not like now - every 2nd game is a cheese fest. Thus better players like NesTea and FruitDealer are being eliminated by simple DT rushes or all-ins.
It's not about effort. Both SlayerS_BoxeR and NaDa beated people that play since the beta. Like IdrA for example. But it IS about opportunity. The current GSL champions haven't hit their prime at BW, which means you can't compare bonjwas from BW with them. For all we know, they could be bonjwas as well, if they had the opportunity to play BW on the level they play SC2 now. Both FruitDealer and NesTea had to quit BW, so we couldn't see what they were capable of. We can talk about dominant players at later point, now it's just impossible to find the pure diamonds from the others who just (quoting IdrA on this) "abuse idiocy".
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On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote:
b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game. I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average. Show nested quote +
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
Wasn't Demuslim a WC3 player though 8)
@WellDuh - MC seems to be dominating shit as of late single handedly
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On December 22 2010 19:35 WAAA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 19:18 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 12:43 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea). What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?! Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons. There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea. On December 22 2010 12:50 RoarMan wrote:On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments. Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol. But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record. Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias? Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7. And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-) Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol. I dont want anything.. it is quite clear boxer isnt dominant at sc2 like he was at BW same with nada and julyzerg. They are being outshone by their less successful (at BW) counterparts. Indicating that while skill in BW or wc3 helps one at sc2 up to a point, it is ALOT more to do with how much time/effort/oppertunity you have for sc2. Hence why i think none of the old dominant players will return to dominate at sc2 (simply because there is alot less of them than other eagre players). It seems you totally missed my point.. everyone does get a fresh start which is why I think it will be someone alot of us havent heard before that will come in and sweep the scene not flash, jaedong, grubby, nada or boxer. As for proof.. I dont have any, pure speculation based on the results so far of the GSLs and other tournaments.
I'm not talking about Boxer or Nada, yeah they were GREAT players when they were in their prime but the GREAT players today are much better. What I'm saying is that once THOSE players switch over, they will rise to the top again. It is not the game that is allowing them to be #1, but more how they practice and their understanding of RTS games. Flash and Jaedong will dominate, once they switch over.
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incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
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On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote:
incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I think most NE/UD players from wc3 have converted to zerg. You have a good point but from the US wc3 scene I've seen a lot of the better HU/ORCs play Terran for SCBW. I am very interested to see what race Grubby plays I'm guessing it will be Protoss.
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I actually wonder why so many WC3 players choose Zerg, since WC3 players are supposedly weaker at macro and strong on micro. Terran and Protoss reward micro much more than Zerg I think...
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I'm guessing it will be Protoss.
Didnt he play already some show matches 3-4 months ago ? he was Zerg or Protoss i dont really remember (he played it like 2nd time :D)
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On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote:
incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I could probably name 5 ex-WC3 Terrans for every 1 ex-WC3 Zerg you give me.
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I'm guessing it will be Protoss.
On December 22 2010 10:17 Guustaaf wrote:Here is the mp3 for the Late Night podcast with iNcontrol talking about Grubby btws: link. They start talking about him at around 1:03. Ill write down what was said for people that don't want to download the whole thing. Marty: One EG-guy that I wanna ask you about is Grubby. Me and Borg both, we come from a Warcraft 3 background, so we are both fans of Grubby, and he's stated that, he's watching GSL, he's playing the game, is he ever going to switch over? Does EG want him to switch over? Do you have any connection with Grubby at all? iNcontrol: Grubby has said he will switch over. He's finishing out WC3, he is a living legend to that game [Marty fanboy-groans: "yes, yes he is"], so he is gonna ride it out. But the plan is that in 2011, barring any big tournament in China, which is pretty much the last place for WC3, he wil make a full transition. But don't expect any news about it too soon, because, his unique position, and I'm speaking for him so this could end up being completely wrong, and this is speculation, I know Grubby and I are friends, but I don't have like a regular talking relationship with him, is that when you're on that level, and you're that big of a superstar, you don't make EG.Grubby on the EU account or on the Korean ladder and just play. Because people look at that and see, oh my god, he's struggling, he's not doing that well, i think he can't do... he doesn't need that shit. So it's gonna be a smurf account, it's gonna be hidden, he's gonna train with EG guys, we're gonna work with him. And when he feels he's ready to be revealed, at whatever stage that is, you'll finally see him play the game. Marty: Do you have any idea what race he's playing? iNcontrol: Uhhh yeh, he's Protoss. Marty: That is.. yes! We called it.
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On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote:
incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I seriously doubt that any EG member would be charging a teammate for lessons.
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will be awesome when he finally appears on the sc2 stage :-D
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Thanks @Guustaaf for the info. Can't wait to see some of his games.
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On December 22 2010 22:57 Merikh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote:
b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game. I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer. Wasn't Demuslim a WC3 player though 8) @WellDuh - MC seems to be dominating shit as of late single handedly
NesTea 2:0 oGsMC [GSL 2: Round of 32]
PoltPrime 2:0 oGsMC [GSL 1: Round of 64]
Yeah, he's tottally dominating.
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EPT
