Warcraft 3 legend Grubby may decide to start playing Starcraft II professionally.
According to fragster.de the living legend Manuel 'Grubby' Schenkhuizen wants to start playing Starcraft 2 professionally in 2011. This excludes that Grubby will end his career after Warcraft 3.
Anyhow, Grubby wants to focus on the last big Warcraft competitions for this year. Next year he first wants to prove himself in online cups and tournaments and afterwards he may want to compete offline as well.
This announcement is a good index of Grubby playing Starcraft 2 in a while but under a different nickname.
Seems like more big war3 names are going to convert, but how will they stand up to the competition ?
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
It's his wife now lol. I think it's great that Grubby is switching to SC2 soon. He may be winning a good amount of WC3 tournaments, but I think it's best to switch ASAP. He is a talented player, but I dunno how good he was in SC1, or how well he played in the SC2 beta. From what I make it out, if he sticks with WC3 until tournaments are vanishing one by one, it may be late for him to compete at a top level in SC2. I know that SC2 is still young and there isn't a lot of big tournaments yet, but if you plan to play at a high level, I think it's best to start soon.
hmm but what race will he play? if he goes terran I'll be sad. protoss may be most like orc (high hp units, ensnare sorta similar to force field, strong t1 melee unit).
On August 26 2010 17:02 Craton wrote: Dunno if waiting a year is a good idea. Seems like now is the time to switch if you want get in while the prize money is big.
There's still a few more big WC3 tourneys at the end of the year that he can win easy money (WCG, Blizzcon, etc.)
On August 26 2010 17:02 Craton wrote: Dunno if waiting a year is a good idea. Seems like now is the time to switch if you want get in while the prize money is big.
There's still a few more big WC3 tourneys at the end of the year that he can win easy money (WCG, Blizzcon, etc.)
Well, I guess if the prize money is decent he has it going for him that the WC3 player-pool is so small.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
with his amazing talent it will be no problem for him to adapt. besides i assume he already plays a bit here and there on the side - the first showmatch of sc2 i saw was at the regional finals in cologne 2009 and it was Grubby vs David Kim.
Well considering a lot of ex-wc3 pros switched succesfully I have no doubt Grubby will be able to switch easy to sc2 but whether he'll be sucessfull is another matter. I wish the best of luck to him since he is/was one of the best wc3 players of all times and hopefully he can establish the same fame in sc2.
That would be sweet, and i would exspect him to play sc2 over time, and we already seen that wc3 are a force to be recon with(MadFrog, Demuslim, Lucifron ect)
Grubby will do fine, like many Warcarft 3 players he played Starcraft to begin with, he has the determination and the drive to be the best at Warcraft 3 and also to practice lots which you need to do at any game the is no reason why he wouldnt be able to do it in Starcraft 2.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
It's his wife now lol. I think it's great that Grubby is switching to SC2 soon. He may be winning a good amount of WC3 tournaments, but I think it's best to switch ASAP. He is a talented player, but I dunno how good he was in SC1, or how well he played in the SC2 beta. From what I make it out, if he sticks with WC3 until tournaments are vanishing one by one, it may be late for him to compete at a top level in SC2. I know that SC2 is still young and there isn't a lot of big tournaments yet, but if you plan to play at a high level, I think it's best to start soon.
When did Flash pick up BW? Remember, he was 6 when the game was released.
Grubby definitely has what it takes to crush sc2 no doubt, he's a smart guy, and he's skilled and dedicated. If he likes it enough he'll play 24/7 till he's owning.
I dont know man, but I know that Moon will be one of my favourite sc2 players if he goes sc2. That man knows how to everything. To be blunt, moon makes wc3 look great, in a bw kind of way, he is that amazing.
On August 26 2010 17:02 Craton wrote: Dunno if waiting a year is a good idea. Seems like now is the time to switch if you want get in while the prize money is big.
I'm pretty sure this was announced sometime during the day9 countdown release party. And he played a show match against Garmito. He played protoss. As for moon he played against nada in a show match. these were both some time ago tho
Grubby was disgusting at WC3. And seeing as how the WC3 players have very strange style of play in SC2, I'm excited to see how Grubby does in this game.
On August 26 2010 17:19 Tiny.pat wrote: haha looking forward to a Grubby vs. Madfrog epic clash! Great news for Sc2
that would be epic indeed. iirc, last time they clashed, grubby took madfrog's girlfriend and sent him into retirement. Maybe madfrog can force a devorce this time around.
Grubby is a great ambassador for eSports and great player. Nothing would please me more than to see him in an offline tournament. SC2 will instantly be a better place/game if Grubby gets into it.
On August 26 2010 18:06 mrkent wrote: that would be epic indeed. iirc, last time they clashed, grubby took madfrog's girlfriend and sent him into retirement. Maybe madfrog can force a devorce this time around.
Umm no, that's Dayfly you are talking about. MaDFroG's gf was a counter strike player who broke up later on.
That being said, Madfrog vs Grubby before Madfrog retired was an EPIC clash that Grubby won, it'll be amazing to see how he does. Since Madfrog played war3 for a long time before Grubby came on board. History's repeating itself in SC2 !
Such good news if true. Grubby is my favorite and the pro who really got me interested in eSports. It's really sad that WC3 is coming to an end, but he had a glorious run and has held the spot as the top orc (and arguably, the top player) for many years now.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
It's his wife now lol. I think it's great that Grubby is switching to SC2 soon. He may be winning a good amount of WC3 tournaments, but I think it's best to switch ASAP. He is a talented player, but I dunno how good he was in SC1, or how well he played in the SC2 beta. From what I make it out, if he sticks with WC3 until tournaments are vanishing one by one, it may be late for him to compete at a top level in SC2. I know that SC2 is still young and there isn't a lot of big tournaments yet, but if you plan to play at a high level, I think it's best to start soon.
It's not too late in the least. Are you crazy? You think the pros we have now are it?
SC2 is going to have at least a 10 year run, likely longer than that considering the expansion spacings and general promotion of eSports. What the scene looks like now is nothing like what it will be even a year from now.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
It's his wife now lol. I think it's great that Grubby is switching to SC2 soon. He may be winning a good amount of WC3 tournaments, but I think it's best to switch ASAP. He is a talented player, but I dunno how good he was in SC1, or how well he played in the SC2 beta. From what I make it out, if he sticks with WC3 until tournaments are vanishing one by one, it may be late for him to compete at a top level in SC2. I know that SC2 is still young and there isn't a lot of big tournaments yet, but if you plan to play at a high level, I think it's best to start soon.
Tha game came out a month ago... There's plenty of time. Some people would actually prefer to wait until the game is more developed so they can just follow builds instead of making their own.
Also, I'd just like to say as another "confirmation" that he's moving on... his wife, Cassandra, just recently posted a large blog about Grubby's history in WC3 and made many mentions to SC2 and how it was a great game. I think he's finally accepted that WC3 is coming to an end, and if he wants to continue his very successful eSports career (got him a beautiful wife and a nice house already!) he'll need to start training for SC2.
Hope he switches and when he does it will no doubt be successfully. Grubby has all the basics, good macro/micro, he just needs to learn the game, which a run through single player can handle
I really liked Grubby in WC3, but to start playing professionally a year into SC2 as a WC3-Player (cuz I think by then thePro-BW-Players from Korea will have started playing) will be quite hard to do IMHO.
But if one WC3-Player besides Moon can do it, he can. Especially cuz his playstyle requires quite a lot of Multitasking, for WC3 at least.
Grubby is still under contract (ie: Being paid to play Wc3), and still going to be playing at Blizzcon. The money will eventually dry out as major sponsors are already switching to SC2. Will be awesome to watch him play SC2.
Grubby could probably play WC3 for a few more years since it's still big in China and so is he. But that's about it, he would be more of a performer or entertainer than a competitive gamer and I don't think that's what Grubby wants. I'm sure he realizes aswell that the future and the big buck lies in SC2.
Anyhow, it will be totally awesome when he officially makes the switch. The competition in SC2 is so much fiercer than in WC3 though so expecting him to be the same beast in SC2 is not realistic, but he will for SURE be a force to be reckon with.
On August 26 2010 23:18 Longshank wrote: Anyhow, it will be totally awesome when he officially makes the switch. The competition in SC2 is so much fiercer than in WC3 though so expecting him to be the same beast in SC2 is not realistic, but he will for SURE be a force to be reckon with.
Right now the competition is fiercer, but don't forget that at one time WC3 had a very vibrant and competitive scene. There were a lot of top players across Europe and Korea and the scene was actually pretty big. Never reached the level of StarCraft of course, but I think it was bigger than the SC2 scene is right now. That will change, of course, as time goes by.
This is great news; Grubby was a big reason for what success WC3 did have professionally, and was one of the 5 most influential players through the life of that game.
I'd love to see him play protoss, as that is the most orc-like of the SC2 races. He reinvented Orc in WC3 a few times, so it'll be interesting to see if he can have as much influence after he switches. In the meantime, I may just see if I can get some of his replays from his run in the eStars Championships. He lost to Moon in the finals, but Grubby/Moon fights are always entertaining.
I'd be excited to see Sky and Moon switch, and maybe have a few of the big 5 Korean Undead players come out of retirement.
Grubby was by far my favorite War3 progamer, I've watched countless reps of him when I was playing War3. I'm very glad that he's making the switch. Manuel Schenkhuizen fighting!
Grubby played a little bit in beta too as Terran. Also this is kinda old news for me and maybe more dutch people. He already said in an Interview at midnight launch in Rotterdam where he was signing Games that he was most likely gonna play SC2 Competitively.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
It's his wife now lol. I think it's great that Grubby is switching to SC2 soon. He may be winning a good amount of WC3 tournaments, but I think it's best to switch ASAP. He is a talented player, but I dunno how good he was in SC1, or how well he played in the SC2 beta. From what I make it out, if he sticks with WC3 until tournaments are vanishing one by one, it may be late for him to compete at a top level in SC2. I know that SC2 is still young and there isn't a lot of big tournaments yet, but if you plan to play at a high level, I think it's best to start soon.
It's not too late in the least. Are you crazy? You think the pros we have now are it?
SC2 is going to have at least a 10 year run, likely longer than that considering the expansion spacings and general promotion of eSports. What the scene looks like now is nothing like what it will be even a year from now.
I know that, which is why I said the SC2 scene is still young. If Grubby waits like 2 or so years, he might be behind. The game will continue to develop just like any other game, but if Grubby switches soon then he'll have a better edge compared to switching in like 2012 or whatever. WC3 players that switched to SC2 haven't found too big of a success since it is mainly SC1 players winning tournaments or placing high (MorroW, IdrA, Tester, White-ra, etc). Not saying that WC3 can't do it because players like Demuslim, lucifron, etc are doing well. It's that SC1 is obviously more similar than WC3.
On August 27 2010 00:24 TymerA wrote: Grubby played a little bit in beta too as Terran. Also this is kinda old news for me and maybe more dutch people. He already said in an Interview at midnight launch in Rotterdam where he was signing Games that he was most likely gonna play SC2 Competitively.
I was under the impression that Grubby played P?
Check out his showmatch vs Garimto, for example:
Also, I'm hoping for Grubby vs MaDFrOg match in SC2...=]
This is great news. Grubby is a beast. No doubt this guy will excel n SC2.
This is old news though. He already stated he might switch to SC2 next year after finishing his career of WC3 in 2010. This interwiew was shown on Day9's KOTB countdown party.
Its always struck me that, of the 3 races in SC2, Toss are the closest to a WC3-type playstyle. That is, relatively small armies with fewer number of units, but greater emphasis on micro, particularly when it comes to spellcasting/using abilities. For example, a Zealot/Stalker/Sentry army which forces the player to skillfully use forcefields, guardian shields and blink to outperform enemy armies of equivalent cost is significantly closer to a WC3-style playstyle than a Bioball or T1 Zerg army would be. I have a feeling that, of all the races, Toss may have the most potential to really reward the crazy micro skills of top WC3 players. Hell, they even have a "hero" unit of sorts, albeit one that kinda sucks
I was an Undead player in WC3, so when Madfrog decided to play Zeg, I was very sad, as I play Protoss. But hearing that Grubby almost sorta makes up for it...
He's a good player, but sometimes I wonder how much of his success was due to being Orc when Orc was strong, being a latecomer to the scene. Orc had not been nerfed for like 10 patches despite them sweeping most tournaments. He might be hoping to repeat that again - By waiting, he can choose the imba race better.
Grubby is very smart riding the WC3 train for as long as possible before it completely dies out. WCG is still offering a large amount of prizes, so it is pretty stupid to just drop the game. He may also have some obligations to fulfill with EG regarding his contract, which is keeping him from switching sooner.
On August 27 2010 04:53 cascades wrote: He's a good player, but sometimes I wonder how much of his success was due to being Orc when Orc was strong, being a latecomer to the scene. Orc had not been nerfed for like 10 patches despite them sweeping most tournaments. He might be hoping to repeat that again - By waiting, he can choose the imba race better.
Grubby was already owning with Orc when the metagame was in a phase where Orc was both weaker than HU and NE. It wasn't until early 2009 when people starting buying items for the blademaster straight from the beginning when Orc became OP, but Grubby has been around and dominating since at least 2005.
Grubby HWAITING!!! It will be nice to see this champion among men playing starcraft 2. I for one bet that grubby will chose protoss, from what I understand it is most similar to orc.
On August 26 2010 16:43 NB wrote: i care about his gf more than him but this sure is a good news
off-topic: ya, hawt azn <3..
on-topic: I think he'll excel in micro further than alot of the SC2 players playing now cause WC3 features alot of nasty spells. He'll miss Blademastaah though :s.
All in all, nice addition to a worthy benelux team.
On August 27 2010 05:10 FrostShadow wrote: I remember moon was going to play sc2 professionally, but i havent seen anything from him yet.
back on topic, cool, i love grubby. he was imo the best war3 player of all time.
I only remember this from the "moon build" where he made planetary fortresses in his main and nat and Artosis proclaimed it the greatest build of all time
Why would you consider this a good thing? How can you all just stand there and watch such a beautiful and unbelievably wonderful game slowly decompose? KEEP WC3 ALIVE! Man, Wc3 should just as likely be able to run par-on-par with SC2, why would you need one to replace the other, when they're both wonderful? This really makes me sad
oh thank the lord there is a RTS God lol ive been a fan of these wc3 legends for years grubby and moon are some of the purest wc3 players ever, they stuck with the game and made it great
really excited to see them make the transition later
On August 27 2010 04:53 cascades wrote: He's a good player, but sometimes I wonder how much of his success was due to being Orc when Orc was strong, being a latecomer to the scene. Orc had not been nerfed for like 10 patches despite them sweeping most tournaments. He might be hoping to repeat that again - By waiting, he can choose the imba race better.
Totally wrong. Grubby have won WCG 2004 and a lot of other tourneys back when farseer was first hero. His understanding of meta game, timing and micro are awesome. Lyn is killing machine who implements standard very well. The rest of orcs became popular when imba BM was discovered i.e. Lucifron, Fly, Who...
But you have to know that it's not easy to use BM. Multitasking is very important, BM always has to harass, while your army is creeping and defending base by burrow-peon micro.
He is definitely better than lucifron, who indeed have been using orc in wc3 and terran in sc2 - imba races of each game.
orc was severely underpowered for a long time. grubby also went emo at some point and made a blog about wanting to change his race to human because he was so fed up.
On August 27 2010 06:03 blizzind wrote: orc was severely underpowered for a long time. grubby also went emo at some point and made a blog about wanting to change his race to human because he was so fed up.
Truth. For a long, long time the WC3 scene was dominated by Human and NE players, with the Korean Undeads being few but consistently placing highly in tournaments. But for about 4-5 years Orc was represented by Grubby... and maybe one or two other flavor of the season orcs. It wasn't until about mid 2008 after Moon's second reign of terror that orc took over the scene.
He is definitely better than lucifron, who indeed have been using orc in wc3 and terran in sc2 - imba races of each game.
Lucifron picked up and performed well with Terran first day of beta. You know when roaches were the most OP unit in an RTS ever and when warpgates were on steroids.
Also, it has shown that the BM isn't so imba after all now when people know how to deal with it, just look at recent tournaments, orcs aren't a big deal anymore, Except for Orc v UD, that matchup is still broken.
Yeah... with alot of the korean/european war3 players switching to SC2, seems like it's gonna be pretty easy for AbuseYouDNA and DasFifthRace to tear shit up.
You guys need to take note of the fact that when he started dominating, Orc was seen as an underpowered race. Also, some guy at WMF was saying before SC 2 beta that Moon had been practicing with WMF B teamers and managed to actually beat some of them, that he considered him as a genius. I think Moon would definetly be as good as tester, if not better.
I really hope the (British?) commentator Chumpesque starts commentating Sc2 games. He mumbles a tiny bit, but hes super intuitive and he really keeps the energy of a game going. I remember him saying something about being a big Grubby fan, thus the off-topic tangent.
On August 27 2010 00:24 TymerA wrote: Grubby played a little bit in beta too as Terran. Also this is kinda old news for me and maybe more dutch people. He already said in an Interview at midnight launch in Rotterdam where he was signing Games that he was most likely gonna play SC2 Competitively.
Another cool thing that I'm looking forward too over the coming years is a change in the average age of progamers, to finally break the myth that only the very young can play well.
As we see "second generation" progamers migrating from WC3 and SC to SC2, there will be many more approaching late 20s/early 30s, which is currently considered "grandpa" age. We already know that those players can be dominant (White-Ra anyone?) and I suspect that we'll see more great players who are older. With age comes experience... obviously some dexterity is lost, but I doubt it's enough to counteract the many extra years of practice.
It will be good for the scene, too. Who wants to get into gaming seriously if the only top gamers they see are 5+ years younger than them?
On August 27 2010 06:03 blizzind wrote: orc was severely underpowered for a long time. grubby also went emo at some point and made a blog about wanting to change his race to human because he was so fed up.
Pretty much yea. Orc was the underdog vs Hu and Ne for about 4-5 years until people finally discovered how to abuse the BM with items. Meanwhile, Grubby has been dominating the scene for years and years.
was reading about Grubby in the dutch newspapers (NRC) a week back, it was an article on competitive gaming, and stated Grubby was a very famous world of warcraft player...
my face was never that deep in my palm after reading that ~.~
On August 29 2010 06:28 AeroGear wrote: Has more to do with the buff to windwalk (walking through units) than item abuse, altough boots of speed are mandatory for blademaster usage.
Uh what? Windwalk could walk through units since like 2004.
As you can see the players include a wide array of recognizable names from all around Europe and beyond, from Danish 6pools to solid American Terran power and a variety of constant top performers in European leagues. However one name might strike out to many: Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen, the legendary Orc player from WarCraft III has finally joined the fray for real on the StarCraft side of things, making his first major tournament appearance. Does he have a say against established top-tier players such as Naama, SjoW and DeMusliM? We'll find out in two month's time!
seems like he wasn't lying, Grubby playing SCII :D
Grubby has to be one of my favourite gamers ever, let alone WarCraft 3 players. I wish him great success in the coming years of SC2, also I wonder what race he'll stick with
In SC1 he was a fan of Boxer, so could only imagine him playing Terran. Regardless of what race he choses, he'll definately revolutionize some tactic play for that race, and make that race imba like he did with Orc.
On December 20 2010 05:09 ejozl wrote: In SC1 he was a fan of Boxer, so could only imagine him playing Terran. Regardless of what race he choses, he'll definately revolutionize some tactic play for that race, and make that race imba like he did with Orc.
He'll be playing Protoss as told by Incontrol on last week's Late Night Podcast
I've never played WC (only SC1 and SC2), and I don't really know anything about it, but from what I've read and watched, Grubby and Moon both seem like total ballers
the documentary by sk gaming that was posted here earlier was a really good watch. grubby really seems an awesome guy and if he puts up a good show and display of skill in SC2 i'll definitely will be a fan
He has the potential to make a name in SC2. He will have godly micro but prob have to work on the macro side of things just like the other WC3 converts.
On December 20 2010 09:25 drooL wrote: the documentary by sk gaming that was posted here earlier was a really good watch. grubby really seems an awesome guy and if he puts up a good show and display of skill in SC2 i'll definitely will be a fan
On December 20 2010 09:28 Onlinejaguar wrote: He has the potential to make a name in SC2. He will have godly micro but prob have to work on the macro side of things just like the other WC3 converts.
On December 20 2010 09:25 drooL wrote: the documentary by sk gaming that was posted here earlier was a really good watch. grubby really seems an awesome guy and if he puts up a good show and display of skill in SC2 i'll definitely will be a fan
I recommand watching the whole thing. Its really interesting
Wow! I always appreciated Grubby's play but I never really knew the man himself. I watched the whole thing because for some reason it was actually interesting. The quality of the production is excellent.
I hope he makes it to the top of SC2 quickly because he could easily be someone that ESports rallies behind.
I recommand watching the whole thing. Its really interesting
Wow! I always appreciated Grubby's play but I never really knew the man himself. I watched the whole thing because for some reason it was actually interesting. The quality of the production is excellent.
I hope he makes it to the top of SC2 quickly because he could easily be someone that ESports rallies behind.
He's already put his stamper on the Esport history my friend. He has a fairly big fanbase and shouldnt have to feel any pressure to perform well in SC2 at all. He's the guy with the second most achievements after Moon and his career is nothing but baffling. He's a true Esport hero.
On December 20 2010 09:28 Onlinejaguar wrote: He has the potential to make a name in SC2. He will have godly micro but prob have to work on the macro side of things just like the other WC3 converts.
That is such a generic wc3 player switched to sc2 comment and shows you know little about how grubby plays.
He isnt famous for his micro (although admittedly it is very sick) he is famous for his sick game sense and decision makeing, often opting for base raiding tactics in long MACRO games. People even called his style "lame" and he responded with "lameing is just another word for playing good". Watch him vs remind in this years wcg (game 2 on ei) for an example. I could understand if you were talking about someone like happy or remind.
I don't know jack shit about Grubby, besides hes a Wc3 legend. Though there was a package during Day9's countdown party, where i was asking a whole bunch of WC3 pros what they thought of Sc2.
Each one basically said they didn't care for Starcraft in general. Though Grubby was really the only one, that gave an honest subjective in depth opinion on what he thought of it.
So i wish him the best of Luck.
Hmm hes on EG, and Eg is getting a Korean team house, I assume hell be over there practicing with Idra eventually.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
^ for a Long time orc/ud was the weakest race. Proffesional players should and did complain, and blizzard listened (kinda) and after ages put a patch through. Dont blame players for speaking their mind dont hate the player hate the game.
moon is married, grubby is married to...damm i should play wc3
joke besides, i would like to see what is grubby capable of in sc2 sinec wc3 players have really good micro. I think if he can get used to many various tactics and the fundamental mechanic, he could be easily belongs to top 50 in EU!!!
On December 20 2010 12:08 nihoh wrote: Orc is essentially a macro race with bm harassment while leveling tc and tech, will be interesting to see grbby play sc2
Harassing people with BM is one mechanic of the Orc race? Man Warcraft games are so weird.
On December 20 2010 12:08 nihoh wrote: Orc is essentially a macro race with bm harassment while leveling tc and tech, will be interesting to see grbby play sc2
Harassing people with BM is one mechanic of the Orc race? Man Warcraft games are so weird.
On December 20 2010 12:08 nihoh wrote: Orc is essentially a macro race with bm harassment while leveling tc and tech, will be interesting to see grbby play sc2
Harassing people with BM is one mechanic of the Orc race? Man Warcraft games are so weird.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
Seriously when did orc get buffed? I was an orc player when I used to play frozen throne.
I'm looking at patch notes 1.23, 1.24, 1.22... none of them seem to be biased in favour of orc? I just see random little buffs to other races and orcs not being touched.
Was there any defining recent patch change that make orc dramatically stronger? If so what was it? I'm genuinely curious.
And yeh I remember when night elf was the thing, fuck archers and fuck demon hunters (the evasion was bullshit and I never liked the % based dodge chance).
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
I miss watching Sweet SAINT's epic comebacks, but there isn't really a race that can be compared to UD's hero nuking ability. Maybe Ghost snipes or high templar feedbacks?
It is quite apparent that a lot of people in here have no clue about wc3. Grubby was always known for his long games. The longer a game went on, the more likely it was that he would win. His game sense, decision making, and macro was superb.
Good luck to grubby^^. I had a feeling that he would go protoss. It seems to be the race that translates best for an orc player. Expensive units with lots of HP, etc.
Grubby and Lyn were always my favorite players in wc3. Now that Grubby is switching fully, I can only hope that Lyn drops WC3 and goes with SC2 full time. (Damn you CEPL!)
My favorite part was actually at the end, when he and Cassandra were talking about how they met and their relationship.
It was even better than the TLO interview that ESL did. They really put together some excellent interviews. I really look forward to seeing what Grubby can do in SC2.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation
blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation
blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing
doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking)..
blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining
The Warcraft 3 pros to SC2 have sort of passed on me....
Warcraft and starcraft are two different games.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
These War3 pros will be stronger than the average gamer because they're progamers who played full time in War3 who switched to SC2 to continue to make a living, not because they're talented.
On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote: The Warcraft 3 pros to SC2 have sort of passed on me....
Warcraft and starcraft are two different games.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
These War3 pros will be stronger than the average gamer because they're progamers who played full time in War3 who switched to SC2 to continue to make a living, not because they're talented.
Pretty bold statements... how can you say the wc3 players "aren't talented"? Check makes all 3 GSL's because... he plays a lot and tries hard? So does every other pro. You guys will never jump off the Tester bandwagon and he made it once. Check makes it three times and... he has no talent apparently.
I doubt we'll ever see a WC3 pro win any major tournaments, but it's tough to say they aren't talented. It's pretty tough for anyone to compete with someone whose played sc1 for 10 years when you were playing a similar, but different game.
Anyway, I hope Grubby chronos a few stalkers out and wins every game in the first 5 minutes.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
On December 20 2010 22:29 Neo.NEt wrote: I doubt we'll ever see a WC3 pro win any major tournaments, but it's tough to say they aren't talented.
Naama just won Dreamhack, and I don't agree that you can say players like him, Sjow, Demuslim, Lucifron, Kiwikiaki, Check, Madfrog, Maka or players that switch now or in the future like ToD, Happy, Grubby, Moon won't win any major tournaments.
TLO came over from Supcom. That's a lot farther from SC2 in terms of gameplay than WC3 was.
The truth is, while BW experience undoubtedly helps....so does any RTS experience, and so do innate talents like hand-eye coordination, reaction speed, and a gift for on-the-fly strategic thinking. Great players are great players, and they have the potential to be great in lots of different games
On December 20 2010 22:29 Neo.NEt wrote: I doubt we'll ever see a WC3 pro win any major tournaments, but it's tough to say they aren't talented.
Naama just won Dreamhack, and I don't agree that you can say players like him, Sjow, Demuslim, Lucifron, Kiwikiaki, Check, Madfrog, Maka or players that switch now or in the future like ToD, Happy, Grubby, Moon won't win any major tournaments.
Yea, dunno if anyone knows this, but KiwiKaki is kinda MAD GOOD at this game. Kinda.
For all the BW vs WC3 debate, from a player who has followed both the early BW, the WC3 and now the SC2 scene. I just want to point out that it's nearly impossible to determine which has highest skill cap of micro in wc3 and macro in sc2, but really it is quite close. One thing though is that BW players requires a more apm, because there's more to work with. However in SC2 this is not an issue due to easier mechanics. So strategical play will more often play the factor. And this is where players like Grubby, Moon and Check shines the most and that's why these guys will conquer this scene when it all settles down from the randomness and also why some of these old players like Boxer can continue to do well.
Grubby is one of my fav progamers, on par with JD. I can't wait to see him get serious with SC2. He is a legitimately great player and I think he will suprise a lot of people.
On December 21 2010 01:14 On_Slaught wrote: Grubby is one of my fav progamers, on par with JD. I can't wait to see him get serious with SC2. He is a legitimately great player and I think he will suprise a lot of people.
yes i think he will be capable of great starcraft 2 play. Grubby is a player with sick micro, but also his strategic thinking is realy strong. i cant wait!
Those doubting his macro, its something he is decent at and can get better. His micro and his battle sense and startegic sense is some of the best ive seen in a RTS player
If this guy really takes SC2 seriously and makes it his number 1 priority he will be a major player
I know one thing: Orc WC3 players don't become Zerg SC2 players. They are either Terran (like Lucifron and Lyn) or Protoss (like FoCuS). Undead or Night Elf players mostly become Zerg.
And, WC3 players definitely lack macro and economy management, at least when they start. Just look at CheckPrime and Lyn at their first GSLs.
On December 21 2010 01:36 Metalwing wrote: I know one thing: Orc WC3 players don't become Zerg SC2 players. They are either Terran (like Lucifron and Lyn) or Protoss (like FoCuS). Undead or Night Elf players mostly become Zerg.
And, WC3 players definitely lack macro and economy management, at least when they start. Just look at CheckPrime and Lyn at their first GSLs.
I played Orc and went to Zerg. Dunno why, I thought for sure I'd like Toss more, you know, fits the same "style" as Orc, tough units that require micro.
After I started playing Zerg I just really felt it fit my style better. I hated playing Undead in WC3.
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation
blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing
doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking)..
blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining
I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc). And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf wahttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=198&topic_id=147511s easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=198&topic_id=147511 It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
because it had been going on for quite a long while, and no end was in sight. I remember that grubby literally said nothing about the issue for a really long time, until the very end, when he finally started making little remarks about nightelf. It isn't like orcs hadn't tried to vary their play. All strategies had been exhausted, except...
The change in the way the BM was used was so subtle, yet so powerful, it eluded the eyes of players for almost the entire lifespan of the frozen throne (you can't really count the time before the blademaster could windwalk through units, since nobody used the hero back then, that's why I say "almost").
From every objective point of looking at the state of the game back then, nobody could have guessed that there was anything left to be done differently. I'm pretty sure that the way this item usage was discovered was more because of a playful little move someone made in a game for fun to see what happens, only to realize that what he had discovered was pretty powerful. And as such, the complaining wasn't uncalled for.
By the way, since I read another post by you shortly after: Spirit Walkers were used a long long time before people used item stacking, and they didn't change a lot. Them + the BM made the deal, neither of the two alone.
edit: by the way, to the people saying that blizzard caved in to the whinery: they did not. there hasn't been any significant balance patch that influenced the matchup at all, except the change to spirit walkers, which made them more resiliant and useful against mass spells. And if that change wasn't implemented, orc would still be crushed today by nightelf, but at a much worse rate than something like 40:60.
Grubby is a beast, he's competed with the best as Night Elf, Human and finally Orc. Has won a WCG in a time where Orc was considered inferior to Night Elf (2004) and always was a contender in every tournament he competed in. Also he is a truly nice guy that helped the growth of e-Sports, especially in China.
It was Zacard that started using the blademaster in important tournaments, here's a video: http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/6142-SKZacard_vs_YolinySky This was the time when Sky was overpowered, check the cameo of Deadman in the audience
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation
blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing
doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking)..
blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining
I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc). And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
Im pretty sure the permanent item change was earlier than that, you also missed the major change of the second patch which was not being able to abuse staff cooldown by passing between heroes. That change ment nightelf could no longer spend the entire game cancelling your t2 buildings. Also this year orc has won barely any tournaments so i doubt its 80% anymore (in 09 orcs were winning everything tho).
To all that question the ability of Grubby to keep up with strong macro players...please keep two things in mind: a) macro in SC2 is way easier to grasp than in BW; I come from wc3 myself, have tried BW in the very beginning and I find the macro-"gamesense" (aka when and where to expand and how to defend the expos) much harder than the mere mechanics. b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
I used to like Grubby until he blurted out that BW was just a game where the only thing you had to do was macro. Then I lost all respect. I would have thought someone at the highest tier of one RTS could actually understand other similar games but clearly he has no understanding of economic based RTS games. He might take some time to adapt to this game with that attitude.
Grubby was awesome in Wc3 and I really hope he will be in Sc2. But I had to laugh when people said Demuslim or Kiwi would have been good Wc3 players. Compared to players like Grubby,Moon, Lyn or Fov they were just rubbish. In Sc2 the things might turn different but I hope Grubby will amaze us with some pretty sick micro based tactics
On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote: b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
^ All these generalisations about wc3 players.. I feel like they are self perpetuating and based on heresay. I agree moons play was quite lackluster but if I didnt know who was playing I couldnt of told you it was a wc3 player. Infact I wager if given a bunch of replays people would not be able to distuinguish between wc3 and BW backgrounds. Even the winner of dreamhack I was suprised to learn he was a wc3 player after watching the replays.
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote: When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Hmm...true, but maybe to make my point clearer with an example (exaggerated):
wc3-player: micros properly against the banshee-harass but drops macro ex-BW-player: keeps up macro but loses unnecessary amounts of workers/units
What I meant to say is: even if the ex-BW-player ends up in a BETTER situation after the harass is over, I think it's easier for the wc3-player to improve by just practicing countless hours. I agree that Ret and qxc have great micro, no argument there. But I feel like people who are used to kinda "neglect" micro when multiple bases made it actually impossible to do everything at once will have a harder time to get used to a more one/two-basing style of play where individual units are much more important.
I can only speak for myself, but I see it in my PvP when playing with blink stalkers. I have no problem whatsoever to blink away focused units individually really quickly....and even though if I lose some games because I don't reproduce fast enough or fail to transition into an expansion against ppl who keep themselves barely alive with immortals, I always feel like these are mistakes that I could "easily" avoid by just practicing harder/more. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to "learn" (blink-)micro of indivual units from scratch. If you know what I mean...
On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote: orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race
Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3.
The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players.
Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel".
Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ?
The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi)
Don't you think it weird that
UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index).
42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer
orc always did hardcounter UD
blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified
kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all.
calm the fuck down as well jesus.
i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about..
I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game.
Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name).
Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items.
Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too
So Orcs whined, and rightfully so.
It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play.
I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta.
bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..?
to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation
blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing
doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking)..
blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining
I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc). And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
the item change patch was well before the end of orc whining, so its pointless bringing it up here.. and in regards to the second change yes it helped orc, BUT orc is now by far the strongest race, why did orc need help? it didnt..
before the tower/orb/staff of preservation nerfs the game was in my mind far more balanced than it is now.. but orc still complained prior to those changes, and look where it took us - a game dominated by orcs because they whined for unnecessary changes..
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote: When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Hmm...true, but maybe to make my point clearer with an example (exaggerated):
wc3-player: micros properly against the banshee-harass but drops macro ex-BW-player: keeps up macro but loses unnecessary amounts of workers/units
What I meant to say is: even if the ex-BW-player ends up in a BETTER situation after the harass is over, I think it's easier for the wc3-player to improve by just practicing countless hours. I agree that Ret and qxc have great micro, no argument there. But I feel like people who are used to kinda "neglect" micro when multiple bases made it actually impossible to do everything at once will have a harder time to get used to a more one/two-basing style of play where individual units are much more important.
I can only speak for myself, but I see it in my PvP when playing with blink stalkers. I have no problem whatsoever to blink away focused units individually really quickly....and even though if I lose some games because I don't reproduce fast enough or fail to transition into an expansion against ppl who keep themselves barely alive with immortals, I always feel like these are mistakes that I could "easily" avoid by just practicing harder/more. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to "learn" (blink-)micro of indivual units from scratch. If you know what I mean...
its not like bw players have to learn micro. its just that theyd rather lose 2 stalkers unneccessarily instead of stacking 2k mins.. its about your focus/priortity ingame, not about "having to learn how to micro"
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
This is a silly comparison, Korean BW players are ahead not because they are BW players but thanks to years of playing, practicing and competing under conditions no WC3 player or BW foreigner could ever dream of. It's quite evident among foreigners who've had similar situation in the past that BW and WC3 players are at about the same level.
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote: I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
A lot of it has to do with comfort level with the game. Even ex-bw players were getting creamed by silly things like banshee harass and quick pressure early on in beta/release. The more you play the game, the easier it is to utilize crisis management.
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
I actually think the way Grubby, along with several other orc players, played war3 will actually help in SC2. Orc deals a lot with crisis management and teaches you patience, execution and multi-tasking. Things like harassing with blademaster while creeping with other units, fighting off tower rushes, and defending tier 2 pushes while your army is creeping is essential to being a good orc player.
If a person of my caliber(tier below kiwikaki in wc3) is able to deal with things like banshees, certainly grubby will be able to as well. He may not instantly shoot straight to the top, but he will definitely be GSL Code-S capable in a short time.
What a lot of BW players don't understand is that not a single top level war3 players has switched over. While players like KiwiKaki and Check made a name for themselves in war3, they weren't on the highest level. The only top war3 players who have played in any SC2 related event are Moon and Lyn, who have stated that SC2 is currently on the back burner and their main focus is still war3. If grubby is indeed making the 100% switch, then he will be the first 'S-Class' war3 player in SC2.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote: b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
I think that's true for any new RTS you get into. Guys are so hot-wired to think one way that ultimately they're not just fighting the U.I. but themselves at the same time.
Here is the mp3 for the Late Night podcast with iNcontrol talking about Grubby btws: link. They start talking about him at around 1:03. Ill write down what was said for people that don't want to download the whole thing.
Marty: One EG-guy that I wanna ask you about is Grubby. Me and Borg both, we come from a Warcraft 3 background, so we are both fans of Grubby, and he's stated that, he's watching GSL, he's playing the game, is he ever going to switch over? Does EG want him to switch over? Do you have any connection with Grubby at all?
iNcontrol: Grubby has said he will switch over. He's finishing out WC3, he is a living legend to that game [Marty fanboy-groans: "yes, yes he is"], so he is gonna ride it out. But the plan is that in 2011, barring any big tournament in China, which is pretty much the last place for WC3, he wil make a full transition. But don't expect any news about it too soon, because, his unique position, and I'm speaking for him so this could end up being completely wrong, and this is speculation, I know Grubby and I are friends, but I don't have like a regular talking relationship with him, is that when you're on that level, and you're that big of a superstar, you don't make EG.Grubby on the EU account or on the Korean ladder and just play. Because people look at that and see, oh my god, he's struggling, he's not doing that well, i think he can't do... he doesn't need that shit. So it's gonna be a smurf account, it's gonna be hidden, he's gonna train with EG guys, we're gonna work with him. And when he feels he's ready to be revealed, at whatever stage that is, you'll finally see him play the game.
Marty: Do you have any idea what race he's playing?
On December 22 2010 04:43 Siffer wrote: What a lot of BW players don't understand is that not a single top level war3 players has switched over. While players like KiwiKaki and Check made a name for themselves in war3, they weren't on the highest level. The only top war3 players who have played in any SC2 related event are Moon and Lyn, who have stated that SC2 is currently on the back burner and their main focus is still war3. If grubby is indeed making the 100% switch, then he will be the first 'S-Class' war3 player in SC2.
I didn't follow the scene too closely, but what about demuslim? I seem to remember some epic games (WCG i think?) of demuslim vs grubby.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments.
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record.
Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
Im not saying Naama was a big name, I dont know if he was. Didnt pay attention to WC3 at all. What I'm saying is that once those big names do switch over they WILL dominate sc2. Saying anything else would be idiotic, they dominated BW obviously because of their great work ethic, fast hands, knowledge and understanding of the game. This will most likely carry over to any game. Look at the players that won the first BW tournaments, did you ever hear from them again? Some yes, others no. But eventually a few rose above the rest and are winning constantly.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?!
Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons.
There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments.
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record.
Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7.
And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL
Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-)
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?!
Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons.
There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea.
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments.
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record.
Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7.
And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL
Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-)
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
I dont want anything.. it is quite clear boxer isnt dominant at sc2 like he was at BW same with nada and julyzerg. They are being outshone by their less successful (at BW) counterparts. Indicating that while skill in BW or wc3 helps one at sc2 up to a point, it is ALOT more to do with how much time/effort/oppertunity you have for sc2. Hence why i think none of the old dominant players will return to dominate at sc2 (simply because there is alot less of them than other eagre players). It seems you totally missed my point.. everyone does get a fresh start which is why I think it will be someone alot of us havent heard before that will come in and sweep the scene not flash, jaedong, grubby, nada or boxer. As for proof.. I dont have any, pure speculation based on the results so far of the GSLs and other tournaments.
God... this whole time I was trying to say that there is no dominant player in SC2 and there won't be such in the next 2 years at least, because the game is new, strategies and their counters are being invented as we speak and in order for a dominant player to emerge, the "oh, we haven't seen this build/strat before" moments should be brought down to minimum. As of now there are many (MANY) ways an inferior player can beat a superior one. Which doesn't mean that the inferior player is better, he just surprises his opponent with something he hasn't seen or practiced against. Do you get where I'm going? Those all-ins, cheeses and other stuffs are going to disappear one day when it's all sorted out. There will be the fear of them existing, but not like now - every 2nd game is a cheese fest. Thus better players like NesTea and FruitDealer are being eliminated by simple DT rushes or all-ins.
It's not about effort. Both SlayerS_BoxeR and NaDa beated people that play since the beta. Like IdrA for example. But it IS about opportunity. The current GSL champions haven't hit their prime at BW, which means you can't compare bonjwas from BW with them. For all we know, they could be bonjwas as well, if they had the opportunity to play BW on the level they play SC2 now. Both FruitDealer and NesTea had to quit BW, so we couldn't see what they were capable of. We can talk about dominant players at later point, now it's just impossible to find the pure diamonds from the others who just (quoting IdrA on this) "abuse idiocy".
On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote: b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
Wasn't Demuslim a WC3 player though 8)
@WellDuh - MC seems to be dominating shit as of late single handedly
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?!
Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons.
There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea.
On December 22 2010 12:50 RoarMan wrote:
On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:
On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:
On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:
On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:
On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments.
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record.
Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7.
And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL
Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-)
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
I dont want anything.. it is quite clear boxer isnt dominant at sc2 like he was at BW same with nada and julyzerg. They are being outshone by their less successful (at BW) counterparts. Indicating that while skill in BW or wc3 helps one at sc2 up to a point, it is ALOT more to do with how much time/effort/oppertunity you have for sc2. Hence why i think none of the old dominant players will return to dominate at sc2 (simply because there is alot less of them than other eagre players). It seems you totally missed my point.. everyone does get a fresh start which is why I think it will be someone alot of us havent heard before that will come in and sweep the scene not flash, jaedong, grubby, nada or boxer. As for proof.. I dont have any, pure speculation based on the results so far of the GSLs and other tournaments.
I'm not talking about Boxer or Nada, yeah they were GREAT players when they were in their prime but the GREAT players today are much better. What I'm saying is that once THOSE players switch over, they will rise to the top again. It is not the game that is allowing them to be #1, but more how they practice and their understanding of RTS games. Flash and Jaedong will dominate, once they switch over.
incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote: incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I think most NE/UD players from wc3 have converted to zerg. You have a good point but from the US wc3 scene I've seen a lot of the better HU/ORCs play Terran for SCBW. I am very interested to see what race Grubby plays I'm guessing it will be Protoss.
I actually wonder why so many WC3 players choose Zerg, since WC3 players are supposedly weaker at macro and strong on micro. Terran and Protoss reward micro much more than Zerg I think...
On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote: incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I could probably name 5 ex-WC3 Terrans for every 1 ex-WC3 Zerg you give me.
On December 22 2010 10:17 Guustaaf wrote: Here is the mp3 for the Late Night podcast with iNcontrol talking about Grubby btws: link. They start talking about him at around 1:03. Ill write down what was said for people that don't want to download the whole thing.
Marty: One EG-guy that I wanna ask you about is Grubby. Me and Borg both, we come from a Warcraft 3 background, so we are both fans of Grubby, and he's stated that, he's watching GSL, he's playing the game, is he ever going to switch over? Does EG want him to switch over? Do you have any connection with Grubby at all?
iNcontrol: Grubby has said he will switch over. He's finishing out WC3, he is a living legend to that game [Marty fanboy-groans: "yes, yes he is"], so he is gonna ride it out. But the plan is that in 2011, barring any big tournament in China, which is pretty much the last place for WC3, he wil make a full transition. But don't expect any news about it too soon, because, his unique position, and I'm speaking for him so this could end up being completely wrong, and this is speculation, I know Grubby and I are friends, but I don't have like a regular talking relationship with him, is that when you're on that level, and you're that big of a superstar, you don't make EG.Grubby on the EU account or on the Korean ladder and just play. Because people look at that and see, oh my god, he's struggling, he's not doing that well, i think he can't do... he doesn't need that shit. So it's gonna be a smurf account, it's gonna be hidden, he's gonna train with EG guys, we're gonna work with him. And when he feels he's ready to be revealed, at whatever stage that is, you'll finally see him play the game.
Marty: Do you have any idea what race he's playing?
On December 23 2010 01:03 miDnight_SC wrote: incontrol will have a long tutor session with him i bet. But since most wc3 player use Zerg, he might check if Idra will give discount to fellow EG player.
I seriously doubt that any EG member would be charging a teammate for lessons.
On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote: b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
Wasn't Demuslim a WC3 player though 8)
@WellDuh - MC seems to be dominating shit as of late single handedly
NesTea 2:0 oGsMC [GSL 2: Round of 32] PoltPrime 2:0 oGsMC [GSL 1: Round of 64]
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/warcraft/images/people/grubby_egshirt_232.jpg)
?![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/en/gfx/BeijingSept06Kode5_15.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/en/gfx/ppgngrubsbrogf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/en/gfx/cassngrub.jpg)
don't try to lure him dammit
