|
United States22883 Posts
On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote:
b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game. I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
|
^ All these generalisations about wc3 players.. I feel like they are self perpetuating and based on heresay. I agree moons play was quite lackluster but if I didnt know who was playing I couldnt of told you it was a wc3 player. Infact I wager if given a bunch of replays people would not be able to distuinguish between wc3 and BW backgrounds. Even the winner of dreamhack I was suprised to learn he was a wc3 player after watching the replays.
|
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:
When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Hmm...true, but maybe to make my point clearer with an example (exaggerated):
wc3-player: micros properly against the banshee-harass but drops macro
ex-BW-player: keeps up macro but loses unnecessary amounts of workers/units
What I meant to say is: even if the ex-BW-player ends up in a BETTER situation after the harass is over, I think it's easier for the wc3-player to improve by just practicing countless hours.
I agree that Ret and qxc have great micro, no argument there. But I feel like people who are used to kinda "neglect" micro when multiple bases made it actually impossible to do everything at once will have a harder time to get used to a more one/two-basing style of play where individual units are much more important.
I can only speak for myself, but I see it in my PvP when playing with blink stalkers. I have no problem whatsoever to blink away focused units individually really quickly....and even though if I lose some games because I don't reproduce fast enough or fail to transition into an expansion against ppl who keep themselves barely alive with immortals, I always feel like these are mistakes that I could "easily" avoid by just practicing harder/more. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to "learn" (blink-)micro of indivual units from scratch. If you know what I mean...
|
On December 21 2010 02:04 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 16:48 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 16:42 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 15:03 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:41 heishe wrote:On December 20 2010 14:24 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:19 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 12:47 yejin wrote:On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote:
orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3. The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players. Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel". Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ? The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi) Don't you think it weird that UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index). 42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer orc always did hardcounter UD blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all. calm the fuck down as well jesus. i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about.. I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game. Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name). Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items. Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too  So Orcs whined, and rightfully so. It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play. I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta. bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..? to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for.. when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking).. blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc). And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
the item change patch was well before the end of orc whining, so its pointless bringing it up here.. and in regards to the second change yes it helped orc, BUT orc is now by far the strongest race, why did orc need help? it didnt..
before the tower/orb/staff of preservation nerfs the game was in my mind far more balanced than it is now.. but orc still complained prior to those changes, and look where it took us - a game dominated by orcs because they whined for unnecessary changes..
|
On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2.
Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
|
On December 21 2010 23:33 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:
When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
Hmm...true, but maybe to make my point clearer with an example (exaggerated): wc3-player: micros properly against the banshee-harass but drops macro ex-BW-player: keeps up macro but loses unnecessary amounts of workers/units What I meant to say is: even if the ex-BW-player ends up in a BETTER situation after the harass is over, I think it's easier for the wc3-player to improve by just practicing countless hours. I agree that Ret and qxc have great micro, no argument there. But I feel like people who are used to kinda "neglect" micro when multiple bases made it actually impossible to do everything at once will have a harder time to get used to a more one/two-basing style of play where individual units are much more important. I can only speak for myself, but I see it in my PvP when playing with blink stalkers. I have no problem whatsoever to blink away focused units individually really quickly....and even though if I lose some games because I don't reproduce fast enough or fail to transition into an expansion against ppl who keep themselves barely alive with immortals, I always feel like these are mistakes that I could "easily" avoid by just practicing harder/more. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to "learn" (blink-)micro of indivual units from scratch. If you know what I mean...
its not like bw players have to learn micro. its just that theyd rather lose 2 stalkers unneccessarily instead of stacking 2k mins.. its about your focus/priortity ingame, not about "having to learn how to micro"
|
On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
This is a silly comparison, Korean BW players are ahead not because they are BW players but thanks to years of playing, practicing and competing under conditions no WC3 player or BW foreigner could ever dream of. It's quite evident among foreigners who've had similar situation in the past that BW and WC3 players are at about the same level.
|
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:
I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average.
A lot of it has to do with comfort level with the game. Even ex-bw players were getting creamed by silly things like banshee harass and quick pressure early on in beta/release. The more you play the game, the easier it is to utilize crisis management.
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
I actually think the way Grubby, along with several other orc players, played war3 will actually help in SC2. Orc deals a lot with crisis management and teaches you patience, execution and multi-tasking. Things like harassing with blademaster while creeping with other units, fighting off tower rushes, and defending tier 2 pushes while your army is creeping is essential to being a good orc player.
If a person of my caliber(tier below kiwikaki in wc3) is able to deal with things like banshees, certainly grubby will be able to as well. He may not instantly shoot straight to the top, but he will definitely be GSL Code-S capable in a short time.
What a lot of BW players don't understand is that not a single top level war3 players has switched over. While players like KiwiKaki and Check made a name for themselves in war3, they weren't on the highest level. The only top war3 players who have played in any SC2 related event are Moon and Lyn, who have stated that SC2 is currently on the back burner and their main focus is still war3. If grubby is indeed making the 100% switch, then he will be the first 'S-Class' war3 player in SC2.
|
On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork.
lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
|
On December 21 2010 21:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 17:40 sleepingdog wrote:
b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game. I don't think that's true at all. The effect that micro maps have had on players like qxc and ret is quite evident. As far as something like crisis management, not to offend anyone, but most ex-WC3 players I've seen have been fairly unimpressive in that regard. Not just MooN and his completely uninspired Z, but in all the European cups. When something like banshee harass comes, many of them drop their macro immediately and the difference in micro is never extraordinary. Sometimes the micro is actually below average. Show nested quote +
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
Yes, that's true, but I think he will have to unprogram himself from how he played WC3. Especially as SC2 develops and games get pushed longer.
I think that's true for any new RTS you get into. Guys are so hot-wired to think one way that ultimately they're not just fighting the U.I. but themselves at the same time.
|
Here is the mp3 for the Late Night podcast with iNcontrol talking about Grubby btws: link.
They start talking about him at around 1:03. Ill write down what was said for people that don't want to download the whole thing.
Marty: One EG-guy that I wanna ask you about is Grubby. Me and Borg both, we come from a Warcraft 3 background, so we are both fans of Grubby, and he's stated that, he's watching GSL, he's playing the game, is he ever going to switch over? Does EG want him to switch over? Do you have any connection with Grubby at all?
iNcontrol: Grubby has said he will switch over. He's finishing out WC3, he is a living legend to that game [Marty fanboy-groans: "yes, yes he is"], so he is gonna ride it out. But the plan is that in 2011, barring any big tournament in China, which is pretty much the last place for WC3, he wil make a full transition. But don't expect any news about it too soon, because, his unique position, and I'm speaking for him so this could end up being completely wrong, and this is speculation, I know Grubby and I are friends, but I don't have like a regular talking relationship with him, is that when you're on that level, and you're that big of a superstar, you don't make EG.Grubby on the EU account or on the Korean ladder and just play. Because people look at that and see, oh my god, he's struggling, he's not doing that well, i think he can't do... he doesn't need that shit. So it's gonna be a smurf account, it's gonna be hidden, he's gonna train with EG guys, we're gonna work with him. And when he feels he's ready to be revealed, at whatever stage that is, you'll finally see him play the game.
Marty: Do you have any idea what race he's playing?
iNcontrol: Uhhh yeh, he's Protoss.
Marty: That is.. yes! We called it.
|
On December 22 2010 04:43 Siffer wrote:
What a lot of BW players don't understand is that not a single top level war3 players has switched over. While players like KiwiKaki and Check made a name for themselves in war3, they weren't on the highest level. The only top war3 players who have played in any SC2 related event are Moon and Lyn, who have stated that SC2 is currently on the back burner and their main focus is still war3. If grubby is indeed making the 100% switch, then he will be the first 'S-Class' war3 player in SC2.
I didn't follow the scene too closely, but what about demuslim?
I seem to remember some epic games (WCG i think?) of demuslim vs grubby.
|
Demuslim was one of the top hu players in europe but wasn't anywhere near grubby, moon, tod, lyn, etc.
|
On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it.
While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things.
1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend".
2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is.
So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
|
no one cares about war3/bw/micro/macro, all that matters is cassandra!
|
On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
|
On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased.
And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments.
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record.
Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
|
On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros.
Im not saying Naama was a big name, I dont know if he was. Didnt pay attention to WC3 at all. What I'm saying is that once those big names do switch over they WILL dominate sc2. Saying anything else would be idiotic, they dominated BW obviously because of their great work ethic, fast hands, knowledge and understanding of the game. This will most likely carry over to any game. Look at the players that won the first BW tournaments, did you ever hear from them again? Some yes, others no. But eventually a few rose above the rest and are winning constantly.
|
On December 21 2010 20:55 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 23:20 Manimal_pro wrote:On December 20 2010 23:05 Elefanto wrote:On December 20 2010 22:58 awesomoecalypse wrote:
TLO came over from Supcom. That's a lot farther from SC2 in terms of gameplay than WC3 was.
Thought TLO played BW @ Iccup, up to B/A lvl? Or am i missinformed? he was never a bw pro, he played supreme commander as pro though he played 1 year before sc2 release at iccup, he was A-
B/B+
|
On December 22 2010 12:43 WAAA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. Yea boxer and nada did well in GSL2, GSL3 boxer/july did ok.. (?). No matter how you try and rationalise it so far the results are good (for boxer atleast) but not stellar. My point was that being dominant at BW or wc3 means little when comeing to sc2, especially when surrounded with a bunch of new blood (and by new blood I mean less successful BW or wc3 players wanting to make a name for themselves). Sure they can do well if they put their mind to it.. just like any number of other players. If I had to bet I would say that the first player to dominate the scene in a fashion that boxer, grubby, nada or moon once did will be someone 99% of us havent heard before sc2. Probably someone with an amatuer or semi pro wc3 or BW background (probably BW as there are simply far more people comeing from BW in korea).
What kind of stellar results do you expect from a few months old game? You want BoxeR to come and win 3 GSLs in a row? All you said is blablabla the first sc2 bonjwa 99% will be an amateur blablabla. I don't see your evidence, I don't see where this is coming from?!
Just because FruitDealer and NesTea won GSL 1 and 2? These guys never played BW on the level they play SC2 now. So they could be BW top class players, who knows? They weren't some random scrubs as everyone make them look like. Scrub is someone who tries his best and fails. Not someone who had to quit against his will and for personal reasons.
There is also another factor. It's a new game. Everyone gets a fresh start. Not like BW, where its impossible to compete with someone who plays the game since the dawn of time. You need lots of practice to understand the depth and overtake the odds. Simply put: you have experience in all kinds of situations and that gives you advantages over new players. So, many people were motivated to start. Including the so beloved Fruit Dealer and NesTea.
On December 22 2010 12:50 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 11:22 WellDuh wrote:On December 22 2010 09:44 WAAA wrote:On December 22 2010 00:18 GreEny K wrote:On December 20 2010 22:43 bRuTaL!! wrote:On December 20 2010 17:09 ppshchik wrote:
These War3 pros are just Starcraft 2 noobs compared to others. I finally realize how the SparkyZ house treated Nal_ra like shit during the old boy series since he's just practice partner level after his retirement from progaming. . People should just stop hyping their future success in SC2 based on their successes of their past careers.
Shows how much you know. Naama? He just won DH. Could go on but there really is no need to. Bw and wc3 players start off quite equally in sc2. Now compare the BW foreign players that were in DH and then compare the Korean BW pros, I would love to see Naama beat any of them. Foreign BW pros were second tier to Koreans, commonly known fact. When more A team and S class BW pros switch over, we will see who comes up on top. My educated guess is that it will be the high end BW players like Jaedong, Flash and stork. lol, you are acting like Naama was some big name wc3 player.. personally ive never heard of him in wc3 (unless he was using another name). You can talk about A team BW pros beating people in sc2 but the fact is how much time you put into sc2 has far greater effect on your skill than being good at wc3 or BW will ever have. If I had to wager I would say flash and jaedong will never dominate sc2 and even though it pains me to say it, same with grubby. Who was it that won GSLs so far.. not Boxer, Nada, moon, lyn or julyzerg but second rate BW pros. So what? Winning the first 3 GSLs won't make you a legend. The artificial hype created by Blizzard over FruitDealer won't last for long. Besides all of them play since the beginning, while BoxeR and NaDa dont. Both of them did astoundingly well, having their Class S secured on the first run. And as the game progresses and becomes more strategically stable, they will own even more. Because they are most familiar with the RTS mechanics overall than any other GSL champion so far. Their experience in BW won't just "disappear" because they don't play BW anymore. And July has his periods. He had them even in BW. So the fact that he didn't do well in the first 2 GSLs means nothing. We all saw what he can do if he corresponds correctly on different things. You can be the best in macro in micro, but if they surprise you with something you haven't seen or practiced enough, you will lose and thats it. While for Grubby... I don't know if he will be successful, that depends on him. But I know 2 things. 1) BW is several times more competitive than WC, and thus harder to master and become a "legend". 2) BW is closer to SC2 than WC is. So the most logical answer is: he might do well against old BW pros, but he will most likely get his ass handed to him. Everyone who says otherwise is biased. And you seem to be falling for the hype behind the old school BW players, what's your point? Nada really doesn't seem to show much improvement between the GSL's, his game is still lacking. July really didn't do too well and he's been playing for some time now. Code S isn't saying much especially in these earlier tournaments. Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol. But Moon hasn't played too badly and even managed to make Code A with a 4-1 record. Saying Grubby will only do well against old BW players is pure theorycrafting. For one you're implying old BW players will not do well when Nestea is an old BW player and has been showing exceptional play. And two, implying that Wc3 players will do inferior to every other type of gamer. Is this not bias?
Another pointless wall of text. I'm not falling for any hype. Seems like unlike you, I was watching those old BW pros at the time they were hyped and I know what they are capable of, and I also know that I still haven't seen an epic games like theirs. And how do you know that NaDa's game is "still lacking". You live in his house? And how come July didn't do too well. He got beaten up by the champion and he took him a game in BO3 when even Jinro couldn't do it in BO7.
And FYI Moon tried to qualify in the previous GSLs as well, but he couldn't pull it off. Just like July. But they both qualified this season with the difference that July had the potential to be finalist while moon's games were pretty mediocre. And for you he played "not too badly", but July played "not too well". Say, who's biased again LOL
Yeah, NesTea is such an old BW player that I actually play StarCraft for twice longer than him. Go figure. And yeah. I'm saying that WC3 players will do worse than BW players. No, its not biased. Its based on logic. Try it sometime, it works well. ;-)
Of course BW players will have a better chance at Sc2, it's the sequel lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
