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On December 21 2010 01:14 On_Slaught wrote:
Grubby is one of my fav progamers, on par with JD. I can't wait to see him get serious with SC2. He is a legitimately great player and I think he will suprise a lot of people.
yes i think he will be capable of great starcraft 2 play. Grubby is a player with sick micro, but also his strategic thinking is realy strong. i cant wait!
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Those doubting his macro, its something he is decent at and can get better. His micro and his battle sense and startegic sense is some of the best ive seen in a RTS player
If this guy really takes SC2 seriously and makes it his number 1 priority he will be a major player
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I know one thing: Orc WC3 players don't become Zerg SC2 players. They are either Terran (like Lucifron and Lyn) or Protoss (like FoCuS). Undead or Night Elf players mostly become Zerg.
And, WC3 players definitely lack macro and economy management, at least when they start. Just look at CheckPrime and Lyn at their first GSLs.
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On December 21 2010 01:36 Metalwing wrote:
I know one thing: Orc WC3 players don't become Zerg SC2 players. They are either Terran (like Lucifron and Lyn) or Protoss (like FoCuS). Undead or Night Elf players mostly become Zerg.
And, WC3 players definitely lack macro and economy management, at least when they start. Just look at CheckPrime and Lyn at their first GSLs.
I played Orc and went to Zerg. Dunno why, I thought for sure I'd like Toss more, you know, fits the same "style" as Orc, tough units that require micro.
After I started playing Zerg I just really felt it fit my style better. I hated playing Undead in WC3.
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@ Metalwing ~ Ciara is Zerg and went from Orc. But yes i agree Orc translates best to Terran/Toss.
I just hope they add Pillage upgrade to marauders! ;: D in one of the expansions.
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On December 20 2010 16:48 hewtrain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 16:42 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 15:03 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:41 heishe wrote:On December 20 2010 14:24 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:19 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 12:47 yejin wrote:On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote:
orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3. The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players. Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel". Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ? The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi) Don't you think it weird that UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index). 42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer orc always did hardcounter UD blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all. calm the fuck down as well jesus. i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about.. I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game. Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name). Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items. Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too  So Orcs whined, and rightfully so. It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play. I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta. bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..? to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for.. when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking).. blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining
I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc).
And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
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On December 20 2010 15:03 hewtrain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 14:41 heishe wrote:On December 20 2010 14:24 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:19 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 12:47 yejin wrote:On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote:
orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3. The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players. Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf wahttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=198&topic_id=147511s easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel". Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ? The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi) Don't you think it weird that UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index). 42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer orc always did hardcounter UD blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all. calm the fuck down as well jesus. i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about.. I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game. Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name). Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items. Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too So Orcs whined, and rightfully so. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=198&topic_id=147511It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play. I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta. bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..? to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for..
because it had been going on for quite a long while, and no end was in sight. I remember that grubby literally said nothing about the issue for a really long time, until the very end, when he finally started making little remarks about nightelf. It isn't like orcs hadn't tried to vary their play. All strategies had been exhausted, except...
The change in the way the BM was used was so subtle, yet so powerful, it eluded the eyes of players for almost the entire lifespan of the frozen throne (you can't really count the time before the blademaster could windwalk through units, since nobody used the hero back then, that's why I say "almost").
From every objective point of looking at the state of the game back then, nobody could have guessed that there was anything left to be done differently. I'm pretty sure that the way this item usage was discovered was more because of a playful little move someone made in a game for fun to see what happens, only to realize that what he had discovered was pretty powerful. And as such, the complaining wasn't uncalled for.
By the way, since I read another post by you shortly after: Spirit Walkers were used a long long time before people used item stacking, and they didn't change a lot. Them + the BM made the deal, neither of the two alone.
edit: by the way, to the people saying that blizzard caved in to the whinery: they did not. there hasn't been any significant balance patch that influenced the matchup at all, except the change to spirit walkers, which made them more resiliant and useful against mass spells. And if that change wasn't implemented, orc would still be crushed today by nightelf, but at a much worse rate than something like 40:60.
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Grubby is a beast, he's competed with the best as Night Elf, Human and finally Orc. Has won a WCG in a time where Orc was considered inferior to Night Elf (2004) and always was a contender in every tournament he competed in. Also he is a truly nice guy that helped the growth of e-Sports, especially in China.
It was Zacard that started using the blademaster in important tournaments, here's a video:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/6142-SKZacard_vs_YolinySky
This was the time when Sky was overpowered, check the cameo of Deadman in the audience 
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Grubby could do magical things with a blademaster that mere mortals couldn't do. I think I saw him cast death coil with it once.
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Time will tell how he could do.
If kiwikaki is doing great, Satinii is doing good, he should not have trouble getting into top 100.
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On December 21 2010 02:32 s.a.y wrote:
Time will tell how he could do.
If kiwikaki is doing great, Satinii is doing good, he should not have trouble getting into top 100.
Grubby was miles above them in WC3.
The part about FourKings brought back so many memories.
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well on his msn it says Train sc2-msg me.
;d
I wouldn't take it as he switched yet tho. no tourneys for wc3 atm to prepare for i dont think.
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On December 21 2010 02:04 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 16:48 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 16:42 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 15:03 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:41 heishe wrote:On December 20 2010 14:24 hewtrain wrote:On December 20 2010 14:19 shawster wrote:On December 20 2010 12:47 yejin wrote:On December 20 2010 12:15 KiWiKaKi wrote:
orc is the most macro/strategy intense race. But also the worst race Seriously, fuck you. I don't care if I get temp banned for this post but people like you ruined Warcraft 3. The Orc "QQ" really got to Blizzard and they patched according to the loudest community, the Orc players. Grubby was blogging that winning with Night Elf was easier than "shooting ducks in a barrel". Well, what is the situation in WC3 now ? The game is broken, there are 3 races playable, Undead didn't win any major tournament in more than 2 years. Only 1 UD player remains (Ted), all ther others have QUIT THE GAME (Happy, Fov, Lucifer, Sweet, Gostop, Susiria, Abver, Hasu, HLA, Elfi) Don't you think it weird that UD is the only race with 1 player left UD vs Orc is a 42% Win Ratio match-up in pro tournaments (Sk-Gaming esport index). 42% for UD, buddy. So dont whine with the Orc race, the only Orc with balls out there was Rotterdam (no blademaster) and Dayfly / Farseer orc always did hardcounter UD blame blizzard for not bufifng undead, don't blame orc players for qqing since they were in a legit bad situation. unfortunately there never will be balance when there are 4 races. orc was always inferior to human and NE qq was justified kiwikaki also has a hell of a lot more experience and knows how to play wc3 better then you probably, he was an ex-pro after all. calm the fuck down as well jesus. i dont think either one of you have any idea what you're talking about.. I think the response before you is OK. Orc was in a terrible situation vs both Human and Night Elf in the time around the end of 2007 and the beginning of 2008, and it was all due to the meta-game. Mass DoTs were just then adapted as a main strategy and all nightelfs switched to that instead of going for bears, while still no Orc had a clue of how powerful the blademaster could be with proper item use. The shop was barely used for anything except healing scrolls or dust. Teleporting staff was more common for nightelf, since they all pushed with BM + DH + 1 archer when the orc reached T2, in order to destroy the bestiaries and the caster huts (don't remember the name). Winning vs nightelf seemed to be a matter of how well or bad your opponent used his DoT's whirlwind on your army. It was essentially out of the orcs hands, since nobody thought of abusing the BMs power with invincibility potions and items. Orcs were mostly crushed at that time by the Human delayed T2 push with quick towers and lots of workers. It was kinda like the SCV all-in vs Zerg thats around right now, except as Orc your entire army was slowed and the "terran" brought 3 simultaniously building bunkers with him, one which burned away your heros and units mana. Oh and yeah the "SCVs" were pretty damn powerful too So Orcs whined, and rightfully so. It all changed around the mid of 2008 though, when some player (don't remember if it was Grubby) came to the idea of buying the +2+2+2 circlet from the item shop right when the blademaster popped out. That basic idea seemed to change everything, since the BM was then starting to annihilate everything with it's highly item-focused play. I'm unsure of how the situation is today, since I've been completely inactive from the WC3 seen since sometime around the SC2 Beta. bolded the only part of your post that i have a problem with.. how can you say the whining was called for, and then go on to say orcs came up with a counter, without any balance changes impacting them..? to me that clearly says the whining was NOT called for.. when you're in a terrible situation you whine, everyone does it. even pros do, looking back on it is easy. you'd whine if you were a hopeless pro player stuck in that situation blame blizzard for caving in to qq and not orcs for qqing doesnt make the whining right, orc wasnt at a disadvantage at all.. they were merely neglecting 2 key components that turned them into the most powerful race today (spirit walkers and item stacking).. blizz did nothing at all to impact those 2 things, i fail to see how you can put blizzard to blame when they have nothing to do with unjustified whining I believe my War3 knowledge is called for here. Actually, in late 07/early 08 a balance patch was installed that helped Orcs immensely. They implimented Level 2 Permanent items (claws, gloves, circlets) on most maps where there were consumable/charged items (Lightning shield, staff of illusion etc). And in late 08 another patch came in that also helped the orcs, which was the Human tower nerf (Repairing unbuilt towers was made 50 % slower if I remember correctly) and the Night Elf orb of venom nerf. And basicly, since then Orcs has won a slight 80 % of all tournaments played since the beginning of 09 (Proven by an article in EsportFrance.com which I unfortunately cant find right now)
Im pretty sure the permanent item change was earlier than that, you also missed the major change of the second patch which was not being able to abuse staff cooldown by passing between heroes. That change ment nightelf could no longer spend the entire game cancelling your t2 buildings. Also this year orc has won barely any tournaments so i doubt its 80% anymore (in 09 orcs were winning everything tho).
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To all that question the ability of Grubby to keep up with strong macro players...please keep two things in mind:
a) macro in SC2 is way easier to grasp than in BW; I come from wc3 myself, have tried BW in the very beginning and I find the macro-"gamesense" (aka when and where to expand and how to defend the expos) much harder than the mere mechanics.
b) macro in itself is something that you can LEARN by hours and hours of hard practice; micro and especially strategic gamesense isn't something you can "practice"...yes you can practice micro, but how do you practice getting caught off-guard an making the correct micro-decision in a split-second? This is something you can only hope to aquire by just having a great overall control of your actions, independent of the "actual" game.
Dunno if you really get what I mean, but what I'm saying is, that if Grubby really dedicates himself to SC2, then the wc3 background will definitely not be holding him back compared to former BW-players. Especially with protoss, which isn't that of a macro-race anyways in SC2 and can be extremely powerful off two base already.
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Grubby is switching, he's already signed up for his first SC2 tournament, Gamers Assembly in Finland (it's in the middle of february)
Should be a good event, there's a good amount of big names signed up already!
Current list of signees;
- ActionJesuz
- dignitas.Bischu
- aTn.DarKFoRcE
- mTw.DeMusliM
- PwR.elfi
- Menace.Fuzer
- EG.Grubby
- mouz.HasuObs
- srs.iNSoLeNCE
- dignitas.merz
- mouz.Naama
- Empire.Naniwa
- ROOT.qxc
- Virus.Satiini
- h4u.Seinis
- dignitas.SjoW
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I used to like Grubby until he blurted out that BW was just a game where the only thing you had to do was macro. Then I lost all respect. I would have thought someone at the highest tier of one RTS could actually understand other similar games but clearly he has no understanding of economic based RTS games. He might take some time to adapt to this game with that attitude.
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I'm sure he didnt mean it in the worst way. I remember a documentary about him and he seemed so nice. Got to try get me some singatures in assembly
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Grubby was awesome in Wc3 and I really hope he will be in Sc2. But I had to laugh when people said Demuslim or Kiwi would have been good Wc3 players. Compared to players like Grubby,Moon, Lyn or Fov they were just rubbish. In Sc2 the things might turn different but I hope Grubby will amaze us with some pretty sick micro based tactics
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On December 20 2010 23:20 Manimal_pro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 23:05 Elefanto wrote:On December 20 2010 22:58 awesomoecalypse wrote:
TLO came over from Supcom. That's a lot farther from SC2 in terms of gameplay than WC3 was.
Thought TLO played BW @ Iccup, up to B/A lvl? Or am i missinformed? he was never a bw pro, he played supreme commander as pro though
he played 1 year before sc2 release at iccup, he was A-
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Grubby could definitely become a top player in South Korea. He'll most likely play Protoss since he played them versus Garimto in that beta showmatch.
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EPT
