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On April 13 2011 14:15 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:06 GwSC wrote:On April 13 2011 14:03 Kazzabiss wrote:On April 13 2011 14:02 GwSC wrote:
Damnit, they need Artosis for this balance discussion and he left >_< He's a protoss too though..................................... Obviously, but he knows a lot more about what its like to play Zerg at higher levels than the rest of the cast. Um.... Incontrol was a Z player in bw and is a Z coach in sc2... While artosis knows a lot about the game and Z, I wouldn't say that he knows a lot more than incontrol.
Coaching Z players in SC2 using broad concepts and game understanding is not the same as actually playing Zerg and being decently good at it.
Edit: Just editing to say I'm not trying to imply Incontrol knows nothing about Zerg or something stupid like that, I'm sure he understands it better than a lot of people. Just saying he is not able to take the place of someone like Artosis in the discussion, from a Zerg point of view.
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On April 13 2011 14:17 relyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good. I think vibe uses them.
I believe Darkforce also usually plops one down by midgame or so (don't know if that's only ZvT specific for him).
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On April 13 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good.
Of course they are. Just watch some streams. These guys make it sound like all Zergs are some narrow minded players, incapable of thinking up ideas like "hey you know what, maybe I should try other things".
No, this concept is beyond all professional zergs, but luckily we have Day9 to suggest hey there's Nyduses. Please get this revelation out to all pro zergs. They were not aware you could use Nyduses in other places on the map besides sneaking it into their opponent's base.
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I think the hope is that it fosters the correct attitude towards the game 
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Thought it was interesting that Incontrol said the top 16 starcraft players were treated like royalty at dallas, getting free stuff, access to their own practice computers whenever, and a bunch of other perks. Kind of cool to hear that at least the live tournament did pretty well.
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On April 13 2011 14:24 flanksteak wrote:I think the hope is that it fosters the correct attitude towards the game
Among the amateur community, yes. Among most pros, even zergs  , they have this attitude. It's what made them pros.
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I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/57/DMZ.jpg)
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This was a great SotG. I love how they talked about the state of the game and not about balance, but about figuring out solutions. And how to force the game down certain paths. I especially like the whole thing about not stopping the deathball, but stopping it from coming. I've also been a huge supporter of the idea that the game hasn't really been explored enough, that players haven't explored options with certain units and tactics.
I really support the anti-imbalance mindset. I think when people start falling back on balance it stunts the game's growth. A new game like sc2 really needs people to spawn new strats and push the constraints of the game instead of blaming it all on imbalance. Try new things, find solutions, push the limits of the matchup. If something doesn't work after you've tried it 30 games in a row, do something different. Find those edges of the game they're talking about.
Anyways great cast. Thanks guys.
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I actually like it when they talk about balance. They seem to offer a cool perspective and insight about the game i never think of.
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Uhh... weren't they ranking on Idra for his 6-pool cheese earlier? Now they're saying cheese is ok.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:23 Spicy Pepper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
Are any top Zerg players actually experimenting with Nydus? By experiment I mean playing a week's worth of games using Nydus every game that goes past 12 minutes. You can't figure out the best use for Nydus without using it a ton in a ton of different scenarios. Someone might stumble upon something good. Of course they are. Just watch some streams. These guys make it sound like all Zergs are some narrow minded players, incapable of thinking up ideas like "hey you know what, maybe I should try other things". No, this concept is beyond all professional zergs, but luckily we have Day9 to suggest hey there's Nyduses. Please get this revelation out to all pro zergs. They were not aware you could use Nyduses in other places on the map besides sneaking it into their opponent's base.
You don't need to be facetious. The argument you're making is the exact same that's always been made before a paradigm shift took place. From business to sports to ESPORTS. Zergs are mishandling key components to their game and they have been stubborn, just as Ps used to be and as Z were before that.
None of them have said the game is balanced or imbalanced. They've said that players have a lot of room to improve their game.
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seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
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On April 13 2011 14:27 eviltomahawk wrote:I can see why everyone cheesed on the short-lived DMZ. It looks terrible!
Holy shit lol. Someone must remake this for SC2! It looks so freaking fun.
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People do whine too much about balance, especially on TL LR threads, that I don't necessarily think Tyler/Incontrol/Day9 has the right idea regarding what's actually being complained about. The few rational voices get drowned out in a sea of amateur complaints, and having people like IdrA and Lalush as the spokesmen doesn't really help due to their reputation for not taking losses well.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
You're basically just arguing for homogenized races, and your example isn't even true. That's never been the case in SC2 or BW.
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On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
Wow. Come on, this episode was NOT about "zerg is fine". Fucking ridiculous whining in this thread.
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Nooo Jeff go back to your old troll ways where you were the kind of offensive yet hilarious person.. not the new professional jeff
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Lolll "I hated your 2gate FUCK YOU" -Day9
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Artosis: fucking ladder
iNcontroL: so is the ladder imbalanced
Artosis: not the time Geoff.....
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On April 13 2011 14:32 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 14:29 WniO wrote:
seriously... having 4 non zergs arguing that zerg is fine is really fucking annoying. i wonder how long the excuse will be that "Well you know, the game is, really young, so i mean you need to realize that things might be discovered, which will help zerg out." 1 year? 2 years? till HotS?
*EVEN IF* zergs units were perfectly balanced against toss/terrans units, it would still be fundamentally imbalanced due to the options t/p has against zerg. for instance,
There are 2 football teams, (american football.) Red and Blue. They both are completely even in all aspects, but team Red only has a third of the playcalls that the Blue team has. Red has to practice defending 3 times the amount of plays that blue has, and they only have a third of the plays that they can choose for offence... obviously blue will win more often than not.
Thats what starcraft 2 is like for zerg! They are team Red!
Wow. Come on, this episode was NOT about "zerg is fine". Fucking ridiculous whining in this thread.
yeah no you're right they didnt talk about it for a half hour.
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EPT
