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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:51 USvBleakill wrote: No he says Fun>Balance on maps on ladder. And no one forcing tournaments to use them. Whoa what? He started off his comment by saying "we are talking to all the tournaments about map changes" and then said "we don't think all maps should be balanced" . . . | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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geno
United States1404 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:53 SCST wrote: Yes, the tournaments are luckily going to fight to the death to avoid this as they at least understand that "not always being fair" is actually a bad idea. Actually, even a child understands that playing a game that is not fair is a bad idea. This is the problem with too much pro feedback. A lot of the time, the interests of fans and spectators do not align with the interest of pro players, and it's really important that Blizzard / tournaments realize this. Of course a player is going to be fine with a map staying in the pool for 1-2+ years at a time, especially if they are good at the map and confident in it's balance. More frequent map turnover is one of those issues that is hard for most pros to deal with, but is really really important for the spectators. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
David Kim: Are you coming on to me? | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
The wannabe Carrier? ;-) I can't recall the stats, but isn't the Tempest a dedicated anti-Massive unit? It does little damage to anything else. You may be right, though. In time, Protoss may add Tempests to the traditional Colossus based deathball. You'd need to be on 3+ bases though to make it work. I doubt if it will be feasible as a staple of future PvT play (similar to another late tech, the Carrier). Hahaha, Geoff trolling DK a little with the Bunker. DK not giving a shit. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:55 geno wrote: This is the problem with too much pro feedback. A lot of the time, the interests of fans and spectators do not align with the interest of pro players, and it's really important that Blizzard / tournaments realize this. Of course a player is going to be fine with a map staying in the pool for 1-2+ years at a time, especially if they are good at the map and confident in it's balance. More frequent map turnover is one of those issues that is hard for most pros to deal with, but is really really important for the spectators. I think that fans will will hate/complain/whine constantly if pros are playing on unfair maps. I can't even imagine. Kim must not have meant this - I must be misinterpreting what he said when he stated "we are working with tournaments . . . we think fun is more important than balance" | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
 Gj! | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Myles
United States5162 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:57 SCST wrote: I think that fans will will hate/complain/whine constantly if pros are playing on unfair maps. I can't even imagine. Kim must not have meant this - I must be misinterpreting what he said when he stated "we are working with tournaments . . . we think fun is more important than balance" Look at BW Proleague. Constant new maps with constant changes made to those maps to fix slight imbalances made it far more interesting imo. | ||
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:58 Sated wrote: If a map is imbalanced then it will get vetoed by players, or teams will only send out players who are good on it in team leagues (which adds a level to "sniper" strategies and the like). As long as there are some standard maps, it is okay to have some zany maps alongside them. I think this is a bad precedent. What if we end up with over 50% zany maps? What if some can't be veto'd? I agree it should be ok to have some fun maps on ladder. . . getting tournaments to play those maps, that's the scary part of what Kim seemed to be implying. I honestly don't think the spectator community has any problems with the relatively balanced tournament maps? I haven't heard a single complain about the current map pool in LR threads, stream chats, anywhere. | ||
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dcsoda
United States583 Posts
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:57 SCST wrote: I think that fans will will hate/complain/whine constantly if pros are playing on unfair maps. I can't even imagine. Kim must not have meant this - I must be misinterpreting what he said when he stated "we are working with tournaments . . . we think fun is more important than balance" You just aren't comprehending the nuances of what he means when he is talking about map balance. A map may seem unfair for a race at first but they will adapt and figure out how to play on it. Did you listen to his Daybreak example? We had the problem in WoL where the "balanced" maps were selected and nothing but those maps were ever used again. No tournament would take the risk of introducing a new map because it may not be "balanced". We need fresh maps, we need to encourage innovation, we need to combat stagnancy. We have the example of BW to follow and the example of WoL to avoid. | ||
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geno
United States1404 Posts
On May 18 2013 06:57 SCST wrote: I think that fans will will hate/complain/whine constantly if pros are playing on unfair maps. I can't even imagine. Kim must not have meant this - I must be misinterpreting what he said when he stated "we are working with tournaments . . . we think fun is more important than balance" He's not talking about throwing 80/20 balanced maps into all the map pools. He's just saying, don't focus too much on balance at the cost of fun. It's the same thing with the design of the game, too. As someone else above mentioned, it's much MUCH more difficult to make a balanced game fun and exciting to watch than it is to make a fun game balanced. And for reference, if you look at BW, this was pretty much entirely how the scene was run in the korean scene. Players were forced to learn new maps every season or individual league, many of the maps being out-there and innovative. Some of them didn't work out and would need to be recalled for being too imbalanced, but it was worth it to get the ones that ended up better than expected and produced really exciting games. It also forced the metagame to change and react a lot quicker than it otherwise would. | ||
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InspiredFrog
Finland522 Posts
On May 18 2013 07:00 dcsoda wrote: Cool episode. GM level dodge on that weakest race question. Loved it. He probably did that to see Geoff's reaction. Sly bastard. <3 Good show, albeit a little short one. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
But at least Incontrol saves it with a different opinion on some things and the quick questions. And that weakest race dodge was Code S level interviewing skill | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Ling/bane takes more micro than scourge/muta in bw? Really david kim? Really? They did a decent job of asking racially diverse questions at the start but most of them were like "why does the colossus get hit by anti-air" "why don't pheonixes have the ability to clear a mineral line like hellbat drops" "why are swarmhosts so good" Really, really weak. I hope David Kim does more community talks like that, but hopefully next time people don't go full racebabby and pull punches. | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
What he means with map-imbalance is that they are fine with certain strategies being more viable or stronger on certain maps than on others because it leads to variety. He does not want people to play the same strategy regardless of map. If people always play the same strat no matter what map then why even have different maps? Figuring out what is strong for specific maps is what makes it fun. Of course he didnt mean he wants a map to be 70% Zerg favored for more fun... | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
Thanks for the show JP. | ||
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