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On May 18 2013 07:04 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
It's like people chose to deliberately misunderstand. Everything Kim said makes a lot of sense if you think about it from a designers and lead-balancer point of view.
What he means with map-imbalance is that they are fine with certain strategies being more viable or stronger on certain maps than on others because it leads to variety. He does not want people to play the same strategy regardless of map. If people always play the same strat no matter what map then why even have different maps? Of course he didnt mean he wants a map to be 70% Zerg favored for more fun...
Listen to this man.
He speaks wisdom.
Every time Kim opens his mouth I get the feeling there's an army of nerds who want to tear everything he says apart and somehow 'prove' he's ignorant about the game. The notion of having certain strategies be better on certain maps just widens things out a little, makes it harder for one-build-wonders to dominate for a short while and keeps the game more fluid and interesting to watch.
Only comment I'd say is it would've been nice to have a Terran player there to share perspective, but I'll take what I can get. Good episode, interesting to hear his thoughts on the game and how they're looking at LotV.
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I just missed this, where can I rewatch it at?
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On May 18 2013 07:04 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
It's like people chose to deliberately misunderstand. Everything Kim said makes a lot of sense if you think about it from a designers and lead-balancer point of view.
What he means with map-imbalance is that they are fine with certain strategies being more viable or stronger on certain maps than on others because it leads to variety. He does not want people to play the same strategy regardless of map. If people always play the same strat no matter what map then why even have different maps? Figuring out what is strong for specific maps is what makes it fun. Of course he didnt mean he wants a map to be 70% Zerg favored for more fun...
Yeah, there's obviously a balance between fun-to-watch and the actual game balance that they have to achieve. But nontheless, people are going to bitch and cry saying DK said that fun games trumps everything no matter what. Among all the other everyother thing he said, they're going to twist it all.
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On May 18 2013 07:09 SECONDCIRCLE wrote:
I just missed this, where can I rewatch it at?
I'm sure JP will get it on Youtube soon. You can also watch now on twitch.tv is you are a itmejp subscriber.
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On May 18 2013 06:57 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 06:55 geno wrote:On May 18 2013 06:53 SCST wrote:On May 18 2013 06:51 Qikz wrote:On May 18 2013 06:50 SCST wrote:
"We want maps to be imbalanced" David Kim 2013... please tell me he's joking I hope he isn't. Every map in WoL played out the exact same. It was awful. Yes, the tournaments are luckily going to fight to the death to avoid this as they at least understand that "not always being fair" is actually a bad idea. Actually, even a child understands that playing a game that is not fair is a bad idea. This is the problem with too much pro feedback. A lot of the time, the interests of fans and spectators do not align with the interest of pro players, and it's really important that Blizzard / tournaments realize this. Of course a player is going to be fine with a map staying in the pool for 1-2+ years at a time, especially if they are good at the map and confident in it's balance. More frequent map turnover is one of those issues that is hard for most pros to deal with, but is really really important for the spectators. I think that fans will will hate/complain/whine constantly if pros are playing on unfair maps. I can't even imagine. Kim must not have meant this - I must be misinterpreting what he said when he stated "we are working with tournaments . . . we think fun is more important than balance"
I don't think you're misunderstanding him at all. Just because a map is "Imbalanced" doesn't mean that one particular race has a clear advantage over another, it could go so far as to be a particular strategy has a mild advantage over another, or certain tricks can be used to exploit strengths in a race that while annoying might not be game changing. For instance, a map with a ton of high ground islands would be imbalanced for drop play. Terran would be able to take advantage of this with siege tanks, strategies where any race goes air could take advantage of this with sight advantages, you could stick a unit on these islands for additional, relatively safe scouting options.
This can be taken to extremes where you have, say, a couple large high ground islands perfectly suited to sticking tanks and turrets on to completely defend against most early pushes. This means that on this map, you simply wouldn't be pushing early against terran. As a contrast, maybe we'd see these used offensively, where a protoss player would combine warp prisms with a normal sentry/immortal push, dropping the sentries on these islands to keep them safe.
Imbalanced maps force players to think outside the box, create new strategies, learn to use units in new and interesting ways... One or two ridiculous maps in every tournament would be a blessing rather than a curse.
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Sometimes I think SC 2 would be better off with like hardcore or casual check box or maybe more subtle changes like different maps based upon your league on ladder. Casual players want a variety of maps like he is saying they dont want all huge BW style macro maps that are perfectly balanced. Pro players and other high level serious players understandably care more about that and do.
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On May 18 2013 07:03 darkscream wrote:
I'm normally pretty positive about sotg but I feel like this show was a blunder. Having 3 protoss players ask david kim softball questions for an hour just seems like a waste. And they literally didn't press him on his dodges at all.
Ling/bane takes more micro than scourge/muta in bw? Really david kim? Really?
They did a decent job of asking racially diverse questions at the start but most of them were like "why does the colossus get hit by anti-air" "why don't pheonixes have the ability to clear a mineral line like hellbat drops" "why are swarmhosts so good"
Really, really weak. I hope David Kim does more community talks like that, but hopefully next time people don't go full racebabby and pull punches.
The thing is what should they do?
The game is pretty balanced on all the data thats available and entertaining enough to make a living for a lot of people.
I think thats the first time that Artosis "Meta" show was hurting sotg. Goeff did a good job as usual finding the right balance but having Artosis or Cats on the show would be a better choice then Tyler who is just not the type of guy for that kind of Q&A in my opinion.
And JP did a poor job as a moderator. He should have been more acting like the "bad cop" who don´t really have an opinion on balance but gives David Kim a harder time with his dodges.
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On May 18 2013 07:09 Kisra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:04 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
It's like people chose to deliberately misunderstand. Everything Kim said makes a lot of sense if you think about it from a designers and lead-balancer point of view.
Listen to this man. He speaks wisdom. Every time Kim opens his mouth I get the feeling there's an army of nerds who want to tear everything he says apart and somehow 'prove' he's ignorant about the game.
This should be highlighted. I think he gave good answers all around (the zvz micro answer was a bit questionable, but I imagine they'll address the situation if we continue having static muta flock vs muta flock battles), and it seems they have a good approach to balancing the game at the moment.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
And let the complaints begin!
A. "no race diversity to ask the good q's about z/t!"
B. "Questions weren't good! How come they didn't ask X? Obviously a better q!"
C. "iNcontroL and Nony aren't even pro level! They can't ask good q's!"
Those should be top contenders
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Pretty happy with the majority of David Kim's answers, and most of the questions too. They didn't get drawn into the minutia of balance unit by unit, which would have just ended up as anecdotal 'he-says-this, he-says-that' and been pretty useless.
Glad to hear that he and Blizzard understand the importance of design and turnover when it comes to mapmaking over pure balance. I think he handled most of the unit questions pretty well too.
The only questions I wasn't happy with was his answers to the hellbat question and the carrier one. After touting the virtues of design, he ended up defending the hellbat-drop based on balance and usage statistics. I wish the question had been better phrased by incontrol to target this problem though, pointing out the disparity between ease of execution and difficulty of defense. The fact that hellbat-drops can do a lot of damage is not an issue. The fact that hellbat-drops still work on top of 5-600+ minerals worth of static D, and could still wipe entire mineral lines and even escape under those conditions is an issue though.
When it comes to the carrier as well, stating that not every unit needs to make it into the pro-scene is quite a cop-out imo. The unit played out exactly as it did in WoL, forgotten and ignored in balance patches all throughout the beta as they were dealing with more fundamental problems and new units, and by the time everything else smoothed out, the carrier was left mostly unchanged and useless. Now they are too afraid to balance it into relevance for fear of breaking the game further. I don't know that it will be any different in LotV either, and that is rather tragic.
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On May 18 2013 07:15 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 07:03 darkscream wrote:
I'm normally pretty positive about sotg but I feel like this show was a blunder. Having 3 protoss players ask david kim softball questions for an hour just seems like a waste. And they literally didn't press him on his dodges at all.
Ling/bane takes more micro than scourge/muta in bw? Really david kim? Really?
They did a decent job of asking racially diverse questions at the start but most of them were like "why does the colossus get hit by anti-air" "why don't pheonixes have the ability to clear a mineral line like hellbat drops" "why are swarmhosts so good"
Really, really weak. I hope David Kim does more community talks like that, but hopefully next time people don't go full racebabby and pull punches. The thing is what should they do? The game is pretty balanced on all the data thats available and entertaining enough to make a living for a lot of people. I think thats the first time that Artosis "Meta" show was hurting sotg. Goeff did a good job as usual finding the right balance but having Artosis or Cats on the show would be a better choice then Tyler who is just not the type of guy for that kind of Q&A in my opinion. And JP did a poor job in my opinion. He should have been more acting like the "bad cop" who don´t really have an opinion on balance but gives David Kim a harder time with his dodges.
There just wasn't really much to say. The hosts all seemed to agree that the game is fairly balanced right now although there are some things to be watching out for, to which David Kim says "yep, we are keeping an eye on them and will address them if they become a problem". I think people just expected a bit too much from this, or were simply hoping that their personal frustrations would be vented at the villain responsible for their ladder losses.
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Hey - great job tonight (today for the Americas).
I watched it live, really nice episode  , cheers JP, Incontrol, Nony and particularely David Kim and his colleagues.
Fun to be able to view it live in EU too (vods are ok as well though), 22.xx - 00:00 CET.
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On May 18 2013 07:19 iNcontroL wrote:
And let the complaints begin!
A. "no race diversity to ask the good q's about z/t!"
B. "Questions weren't good! How come they didn't ask X? Obviously a better q!"
C. "iNcontroL and Nony aren't even pro level! They can't ask good q's!"
Those should be top contenders
Remember the appreciative majority, but we are the silent ones on these forums
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So I missed the show - was there any discussion on mech, and the siege tank in particular?
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On May 18 2013 07:19 iNcontroL wrote:
And let the complaints begin!
A. "no race diversity to ask the good q's about z/t!"
B. "Questions weren't good! How come they didn't ask X? Obviously a better q!"
C. "iNcontroL and Nony aren't even pro level! They can't ask good q's!"
Those should be top contenders
From what I saw of the very end I really liked the questions you were asking (it's all I saw). Can't wait to see the rest when the VOD goes up on youtube <3
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On May 18 2013 07:19 iNcontroL wrote:
And let the complaints begin!
A. "no race diversity to ask the good q's about z/t!"
B. "Questions weren't good! How come they didn't ask X? Obviously a better q!"
C. "iNcontroL and Nony aren't even pro level! They can't ask good q's!"
Those should be top contenders
You should probably do the top 3 complements too. Just for completeness!
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It doesn't even matter if the maps are super cheesy or super 40 bases huge. Playing on the same maps for 2 friggin years is what causes the metagame to get stale. Constantly rotate in and out maps will help keep things interesting.
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Really enjoyed that, its great to see some of the Blizzard people doing these kinds of shows.
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On May 18 2013 07:19 iNcontroL wrote:
And let the complaints begin!
A. "no race diversity to ask the good q's about z/t!"
B. "Questions weren't good! How come they didn't ask X? Obviously a better q!"
C. "iNcontroL and Nony aren't even pro level! They can't ask good q's!"
Those should be top contenders
I think you guys did an exceptional job. If anybody from these forums were in your position they'd just be like "the fuck are you and your dumbass team doing these days to not notice hellbats, yah dunce?". I enjoyed it, good quality questions. Thanks!
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EPT
