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United States7483 Posts
On November 16 2012 08:04 Cutlery wrote:
This is turning into a whine fest. Can't hate on zergs for using infestors. There simply is no other valid option. Zerg was a mess until they realized infestors would give them time to get a broodlord army, and then everything centered around that because it actually made them good lategame for once.
Zerg stands and falls on the infestor unit alone. Infestor determines the entire ZvX matchup balance all on its own. No way blizzard will change the infestor before HotS. Much too risky.
Nobody is hating the zergs for choosing to make infestors, obviously it's the correct choice. We're complaining that mass infestors is just too strong and it's silly that it's that much better than other options (apart from infestor/BL). Pretty much every protoss and terran wants an infestor nerf combined with small buffs elsewhere to make the zerg army beatable but still viable.
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On November 16 2012 08:01 caradoc wrote:Surprised the fact that fungals just kill interceptors hasn't been brought up  At the stage of the game they're talking about, you can't just waste minerals, and your bank is everything.
Yeah kind of supid to be honest... that darkforce can say this just. He is telling him total bullshit you can see watching those guys nobody of the watches GSL often enough o0 it was not long ago, that someone did go carrier and you only need like 3 fungals and your carriers are empty. you even cant micro them properly so everything clumbs and just dies to fungal...
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A possible unintended consequence of nerfing infestors: Zerg will build even more infestors to compensate.
It is really, really hard to balance the right way.
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On November 16 2012 08:05 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 08:04 Cutlery wrote:
This is turning into a whine fest. Can't hate on zergs for using infestors. There simply is no other valid option. Zerg was a mess until they realized infestors would give them time to get a broodlord army, and then everything centered around that because it actually made them good lategame for once.
Zerg stands and falls on the infestor unit alone. Infestor determines the entire ZvX matchup balance all on its own. No way blizzard will change the infestor before HotS. Much too risky. Nobody is hating the zergs for choosing to make infestors, obviously it's the correct choice. We're complaining that mass infestors is just too strong and it's silly that it's that much better than other options (apart from infestor/BL). Pretty much every protoss and terran wants an infestor nerf combined with small buffs elsewhere to make the zerg army beatable but still viable.
It sure is a lot of QQ. and on ladder I get a lot of hate. And I'm not even big on infestors in general, although I realize they are often required.
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On November 16 2012 08:08 m0ck wrote:
A possible unintended consequence of nerfing infestors: Zerg will build even more infestors to compensate.
It is really, really hard to balance the right way.
No if you buff the units with the roles that the infestor overlaps right now. Cough, Hydras, cough cough.
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Uhhh. If ToD doesn't want to discuss(!) balance he shouldn't be on the show. I mean his whole agenda was for Darkforce to just admit that infestors are imbalanced and should be removed from the game.
Why not discuss about the carriers? Why not try to find numbers where they can be transitioned into? Or to be precise: Why not do the same thing QXC tried for ravens for carriers? But it looks like ToD cannot do that or just ask even why a Zerg doesn't want fungal to have a 175 energy cost.
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On November 16 2012 08:06 Destroyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 08:01 caradoc wrote:Surprised the fact that fungals just kill interceptors hasn't been brought up At the stage of the game they're talking about, you can't just waste minerals, and your bank is everything. Yeah kind of supid to be honest... that darkforce can say this just. He is telling him total bullshit you can see watching those guys nobody of the watches GSL often enough o0 it was not long ago, that someone did go carrier and you only need like 3 fungals and your carriers are empty. you even cant micro them properly so everything clumbs and just dies to fungal...
Yeah it was really odd that ToD did not mention this. I dont even play SC2, I only watch it but even I have heard this mentioned at least 3 times.
Never actually seen it happen (cause carriers are so rare) but it is not hard to understand that if you have many carriers and target fire a unit the interceptors will obviously stack at a cross section. If you fungal that point you obviously going to kill an insane amount of interceptors.
And even if they are not target firing zerg could just put up some sacrificial units zergling/roach in front and then just spam fungals with 10+ infester.
BTW: Is that screenshot that ToD took uploaded anywhere? Could be a fun mindgame just trying to come up with an reasonably army. Because the suggestion that was put up with carriers is actually not that viable because of reason stated above.
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Damn I always tune in when they do shoutouts, I hope JP uploads the show fast :D
p.s New pillars Tod and QXC are awesome
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You never know who is listening. So i cant give in too much :D
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On November 16 2012 08:06 Destroyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 08:01 caradoc wrote:Surprised the fact that fungals just kill interceptors hasn't been brought up At the stage of the game they're talking about, you can't just waste minerals, and your bank is everything. Yeah kind of supid to be honest... that darkforce can say this just. He is telling him total bullshit you can see watching those guys nobody of the watches GSL often enough o0 it was not long ago, that someone did go carrier and you only need like 3 fungals and your carriers are empty. you even cant micro them properly so everything clumbs and just dies to fungal...
Darkforce stated that it's part of his daily routine to watch gsl every morning before he plays. But you are right about the minerals for interceptors that will run out.
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It was a really nice point about the relative build time/cost investment of brood lords versus bc/ravens or carrier/archon/templar. I do not think infestors without brood lord/corrupter is as much of an issue.
Also I would recommend game 5 of hyun vs finale in ipl fight club. An army of mostly void ray/archon destroys an army of brood lord/infestor. I do think void rays are a better choice than carriers. Templar with feedback/storm can do a very good job of protecting air units against infestors. Also there is the possibility of forcing infestors to use their energy and then recalling void rays away, even better with good shield upgrades which can recharge.
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On November 16 2012 08:14 DarKFoRcE wrote:
You never know who is listening. So i cant give in too much :D
It would have been interesting to hear your thoughts on ways to buff the basic Zerg units alongside an infestor nerf.
Because it's becoming quite clear that most zergs just rush to BL-infestors while playing defensively because roaches/hydras/mutas don't scale well with their protoss/terran counterparts.
I mean, even hydras with speed in HOTS are shitty against Terran.
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VOD!
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On November 16 2012 08:27 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 08:06 Destroyr wrote:On November 16 2012 08:01 caradoc wrote:Surprised the fact that fungals just kill interceptors hasn't been brought up At the stage of the game they're talking about, you can't just waste minerals, and your bank is everything. Yeah kind of supid to be honest... that darkforce can say this just. He is telling him total bullshit you can see watching those guys nobody of the watches GSL often enough o0 it was not long ago, that someone did go carrier and you only need like 3 fungals and your carriers are empty. you even cant micro them properly so everything clumbs and just dies to fungal... Darkforce stated that it's part of his daily routine to watch gsl every morning before he plays. But you are right about the minerals for interceptors that will run out.
I'm sure Darkforce knows better than I do, he just may not have thought about it from the perspective of fungals vs. interceptors precisely because massed carriers are so rare anyways.
Mineral cost aside though, fungals vs. carriers is also the only case where fungal growth actually prevents a ranged unit from attacking something that would normally be in range. Not only does fungal directly cost protoss minerals, but it completely negates carriers' ability to attack as long as fungal is in effect.
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i really like what qxc said too. Rather buff raven/carriers (directly or tech time) than nerfing infestor so hard that you eliminate gameplay just like they did with the ghost.
I really hate that they are so observant with the infestor and the ghost got nerfed so fast without giving zerg time to react to that. Mass ghosts was still super hard to get to. and you could have still used neural parasite to take over a ghost and emp all the other ghosts. That wouldnt be easy to pulloff but its basically the same situation that protoss is in against the zerg when he has to hit a good vortex to win. and blizzard hasnt got a real problem with that.
and ghosts are just a super fun unit. pew pew... i loved that part of the micro master map where you had to snipe banelings... so cool.
Since raven and carriers dont affect the other matchups that much it would be really nice.
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I also like qxc's idea of making raven and carrier more accessible. The proposed "make fungal projectile" sounds interesting too, since it could bring that slight element of "dodging fungals" into play.
I'm still not too convinced about carriers usability though. To me it seems carriers get really hard countered by corruptors and even against that infestor army ToD posted, the fungals on interpectors have the potential to negate the carriers damage and basically at that point you are just trading energy for minerals.
I used to watch a lot of starcraft back in 2011 and early 2012(slowed now down to basically to watch occasional GSL and following some parts/most of bigger tournaments like MLG and dreamhack) and all of the games from the top of my head where protoss went carriers(built at least 1) against zerg i have hard time remembering any games where they actually ended up winning the game. Only one where i can remember protoss building couple carriers and winning was in GSL(?) at Metropolis where zerg was bottom right and protoss was top right(can't remember who were the players). Protoss went for relatively fast stargate and carriers(i think he started off with void rays), held off zerg attack at 3 base(with those 2-3 carriers) and then started to attack zerg with air+ground and eventually won.
Good episode JP! Keep it up!
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Darkforce didnt say Carriers are the answer. He said something in the line of a mass Archon, HT and Carrier army can compete with the zerg hive army. At least thats how I understood it. Corrupter stack up big time, so the mass aoe should slaughter them. There was one game I saw recently, but dunno remember what it was, where this composition kinda worked.
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Did the VODs just disappear from twitch for anyone else?
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United States7483 Posts
On November 16 2012 09:43 Kenpark wrote:
Darkforce didnt say Carriers are the answer. He said something in the line of a mass Archon, HT and Carrier army can compete with the zerg hive army. At least thats how I understood it. Corrupter stack up big time, so the mass aoe should slaughter them. There was one game I saw recently, but dunno remember what it was, where this composition kinda worked.
No, he said that mass carrier with some HT's and a couple colossi can beat mass infestor with some (5-6) corrupters.
Problem is, it probably doesn't win, and I don't know how you can even get there. Infestors can straight up beat carriers (fungal interceptors, carriers can't attack anymore, then either Neural or Infested terran them to death).
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On November 16 2012 10:19 jared1259 wrote:
Did the VODs just disappear from twitch for anyone else?
It should be up on youtube soon
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EPT
