EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 248
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
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echO [W]
United States1495 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Also JP, I'd like to hear your thoughts on matchups too. Sure you might say stupid stuff because you don't play at a pro level...but keep in mind that a big chunk of the audience are not pros, and you can bring alot to the discussion by pointing out or bringing up something that pros tend to take for granted. We need you in there to ask the dumb stuff for us :p I see many people giving painuser much crap over zealot/dt, but at least he had the balls to bring it up. Nony/incontrol's gut reaction "you don't know what you're talking about because you're Terran" wasn't helpful at all. But the subsequent discussion of GtG opportunity cost of colosseus, and the nature of dark shrine vs tech lab+ tech, as well as permanent cloak vs flight and range, that stuff was solid gold. So yeah, less arguments of authority, and more arguments of merit please  | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On November 19 2010 06:58 Sl4ktarN wrote: They are good for different things and different situations. Can people stop bitching about which unit is "better"? Thats just not true though, they perform almost exactly the same role, only banshees do it better. | ||
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tyrless
United States485 Posts
This is a cheapshot... but you play Terran don't you. Painuser kept on mentioning this nebulous idea of somehow "figuring" it out. All of his arguements were pretty comprehensively debunked. Honestly, it was the standard terran spiel. Anyway whatever makes you feel skilled. nope I play random, I don't have worry about making silly statements like "standard terran spiel", try again | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
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MGHova
Canada274 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:16 epik640x wrote: I won't take incontrol's word that select said he wouldn't shake hands. Incontrol seems to like to gossip and shit. "Nah, I don't want to cause problems let me just bring up some more alleged stuff about other players we can talk about behind their backs." I just don't understand the need for YOU to even say that. | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On November 19 2010 07:42 echO [W] wrote: Isn't Day[9] the random player when it comes to race discussion? I'm pretty sure day9 prefers to not think of balance, he talked about it in a daily that it just ruins the thought process when you're trying to figure out strategies and such. And to reinforce that thought i'm pretty sure day9 went completely silent once the balance discussions started. I wish i could do this cause i think it actually makes you a better player, but i enjoy discussing balance so i won't be stopping anytime soon. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Intuitively this makes alot of sense to me. I think about sentry micro and I see the strength of psi storm, but then I think of all the times I've seen a Protoss crumble because they couldn't finish tech safely, or miss-microed one or two forcefields. Then I think about how Terrans can pop a scan if they forget detection, or if they attack at a bad angle with a bioball, they can stim-retreat and heal up with medivacs and give it another go. And how even if you miss scouting something like mutas, you can always fall back on marines to fix the problem for you. Unfortunately it didn't seem like Painuser got the gist of that. So I am curious to hear the Terran POV on that. To be sure, solid micro is important for everyone, as I've seen even OP banshees make 1 small mistake that costs the Terran the game. But Im curious if other pros would agree that it's even more important for Protoss than Zerg/Terran. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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dcemuser
United States3248 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:35 Jayrod wrote: Does anyone know where Painuser is from? Is he a canadian player? Also why is he called T. Pain? Is his first name also tylor or something? Taylor, yep. | ||
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Toastmold
Canada207 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:27 pezit wrote: I'm pretty sure day9 prefers to not think of balance, he talked about it in a daily that it just ruins the thought process when you're trying to figure out strategies and such. And to reinforce that thought i'm pretty sure day9 went completely silent once the balance discussions started. I wish i could do this cause i think it actually makes you a better player, but i enjoy discussing balance so i won't be stopping anytime soon. While I can not speak for Day9, I believe he doesn't like to discuss 'counters' not balance. And this isn't really a simple balance discussion about a unit or two, it is about fundamental flexibility of the races? That is my perception anyways. It just seemed like something was really lacking in the discussion when you had two biased sides (not saying either was unreasonable though) arguing their points. Another more outsider viewpoint would have been interesting. Perhaps next week if Day9 or a randomer doesn't want to comment a Zerg player could be asked? (But maybe it was talked into the ground already) | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
I think the hosts also stressed that Zealots' sheer stats including damage didn't matter so much as their health alone since they're never expected to actually inflict damage or have shields in a huge engagement. As Tyler repeated many times, they're there to die for the Colossi. Painuser was never arguing that zealots WEREN'T just a meatshield. Literally the only thing he said was that they had good health + DPS over cost (or whatever it was), which is completely factual and not a point for contention. Tyler and Inc. reacted as if he'd said that zealots were one of the best units in the game practically, which was not something explicitly stated or implied by Painuser. Anyway, I won't go on anymore, but it would be nice to see the SotG regulars hone their debating/discussion skills. One of the most important parts of discussion is being able to listen to and understand someone else's opinion, and I got the feeling that that was a skill which some of the cast sorely lacked. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:48 Swede wrote: Painuser: "Armor and guardian shield allow zealots to absorb an extra 15 - 20 hits, and statistically speaking, they're a good unit" Painuser was never arguing that zealots WEREN'T just a meatshield. Literally the only thing he said was that they had good health + DPS over cost (or whatever it was), which is completely factual and not a point for contention. Tyler and Inc. reacted as if he'd said that zealots were one of the best units in the game practically, which was not something explicitly stated or implied by Painuser. If that's all he was saying, that's such a weak point that there's no reason to respond to it. I think it was clear that he was saying Zealots are good on paper and they could be part of one of the things us Protoss "figure out" to solve our current problems. PainUser did the same thing with Thors. Late game TvP sucked. He saw Thors are good on paper and he worked them in to a solution. I think Zealots can be used better than they're currently being used but their role alongside Colossi is a good explanation why they're hard to use any other way. | ||
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desRow
Canada2654 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:54 Liquid`Tyler wrote: If that's all he was saying, that's such a weak point that there's no reason to respond to it. I think it was clear that he was saying Zealots are good on paper and they could be part of one of the things us Protoss "figure out" to solve our current problems. PainUser did the same thing with Thors. Late game TvP sucked. He saw Thors are good on paper and he worked them in to a solution. I think Zealots can be used better than they're currently being used but their role alongside Colossi is a good explanation why they're hard to use any other way. I'm sad they didnt gave us zealots from bw. At least moving protoss army wouldn't be such a hassle since zealots would be in front of the stalkers. I wish blizz would prevent concusive shell from slowing the charged zealot =) | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
I think this approach would make for some interesting competitive events. Like a whole night of show matches at a location. P.S. Ive incorporated +1 armor into my fast expand build over a month ago and its really REALLY good if you do that in the place of a robo when you scout bio play. However, don't even think about doing it on LT or you'll just get a build order loss. (thor drops are strong on that map and have to be accounted for so you're gonna need vision). Fast +1 armor is quite strong, painuser is right about that, but missed the mark on many other issues. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On November 19 2010 08:16 epik640x wrote: I won't take incontrol's word that select said he wouldn't shake hands. Incontrol seems to like to gossip and shit. "Nah, I don't want to cause problems let me just bring up some more alleged stuff about other players we can talk about behind their backs." ...WHAT? So Inc says it's terrible that a bland and fair criticism (if it can even be called that) of Select got turned into something much worse by fucking half wits on forums, and how dumb it was that it got to Select who was made to think that Inc had a problem with him, and Inc made it very clear that he has no issue with the guy. And your immediate response is to say 'omg incontrol is such a shit stirring gossip'? The mind reels. Was that a joke or do you literally have shit pumping through your head? | ||
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
On November 19 2010 09:01 desrow wrote: I'm sad they didnt gave us zealots from bw. At least moving protoss army wouldn't be such a hassle since zealots would be in front of the stalkers. I wish blizz would prevent concusive shell from slowing the charged zealot =) What was the Zealots base speed (without leg enhancements) in Brood War? They seem much slower in SC2, unless I'm imagining it. | ||
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Swede
New Zealand853 Posts
I think it was clear that he was saying Zealots are good on paper and they could be part of one of the things us Protoss "figure out" to solve our current problems With all due respect, I think it was clear the only reason he brought up zealots was because Inc. forced him to. Perhaps he does think that zealots are one of the things protoss could use to solve current problems, but he certainly didn't share their stats for this reason. It was purely because Inc. was trying to get him to say that zealots were overpowered, which he obviously didn't believe. Anyway, there's no point going on about it. My original point was only that you should give your guests the benefit of the doubt and be a little more cautious about jumping all over their opinions. I think you guys missed a great opportunity to give a detailed analysis of PvT with the point of view of a great Terran player, but instead you just argued over which cloaked units were better/worse etc. (I really do love the cast btw, this is just something that I think could be improved on which you can obviously take or leave) | ||
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