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On November 18 2010 05:50 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:19 kaisr wrote:
when tyler said his mechanics were better in BW than sc2 did he mean in compared to everyone else or in absolute terms? both. i had better mechanics (way better) when i was at my best in bw than i have now in sc2. and in bw i had the best mechanics outside of korea along with idra, which i cant claim to have atm with sc2. recent history prior to sc2 beta: i quit bw in february 2009 and came back in january 2010. idra definitely surpassed me mechanically during that time, and he was mechanically superior when we were playing TSL2 (january - february 2010) but not so superior that he could win every game based purely on mechanics, and also not so superior that he could rely purely on mechanics to win a bo5 (map preferences definitely played a role there though -- he wouldnt rely on mechanics on a protoss favored map but he would on a terran favored map). but note that at the time of TSL2, idra had been playing full time in korea (~10 hours a day) for about 2.5 years or so. i came off a 10 month break, and played about 30 hours a week while taking a full load of classes, and was still able to brush up in about a month to mechanically dominate everyone in TSL2 except idra. against tarson, for example, who i had to play after i'd been practicing for only 3-4 weeks, i chose some safe builds and i just micro'd and macro'd. it should be kind of telling of my style of play, and the strength of my mechanics, that i'd choose to rely on mechanics in the ro16 of the TSL despite practicing so little. of course, being able to get back in shape quickly isn't what matters the most. idra did achieve better mechanics than i ever did.
Oh you're such a baller man, wish I could go to Dreamhack to say hello but I have to work this Dreamhack =(
"Nooooo... dude Tarson. Last time I played him was in Starcraft 1 and he crumbled under my iron fist." best quote of this sotg.
GL at Dreamhack hope you win.
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the sound is quit bad on this one !!
lots of background noise and static i think :S
but thanks i'll listen anyways :D
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On November 18 2010 21:26 Piledriver wrote:
LOL, its funny because I felt the EXACT opposite when I listened to the podcast. Tyler and InControl, were trying to tell their problems, and all PainUser had to say was "I dunno man, I think you need to figure it out, but its not imbalanced".
Especially the Banshee vs DT argument was cringe worthy. How can anyone in their right mind say that DTs are better than Banshees? I mean I would take Banshees over DTs any day of the week and twice on Sundays. You can 100% retreat with Banshees after a harass if you're not retarded or dont overcommit. But how on earth do you retreat with DTs which get slowed and clusterfucked by concussive shells? Basically DTs become a commitment and you HAVE to do insane damage with the DT (150 Min, 125 gas) because you essentially throw away the unit, so you're praying to do crazy damage. Not to mention the tech is not dead end by any means. Your starport still continues to produce medivacs/ravens and Banshees are excellent units to have anyways just as pure damage dealers.
Ridiculous.
Agreed. Loved the PvT discussion, good work guys!
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803 Posts
Why does incontrol not take responsibility for his own comments. He acts like he is completely innocent and that select shouldn't dislike it.
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On November 19 2010 00:47 robertdinh wrote:
Why does incontrol not take responsibility for his own comments. He acts like he is completely innocent and that select shouldn't dislike it.
he didn't say anything that should be taken as negative?
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you should do the "incontrol's sentences get abbreviated by vanishing random parts in between to put something funny back together" thing on a regular basis, it cracks me up how day9 flashes out laughing so hard 
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On November 18 2010 20:28 Swede wrote:
Great cast for the most part, but allow me to submit a little criticism which may or may not be constructive (depends what you do with it):
The PvT discussion:
Painuser: "Armor and guardian shield allow zealots to absorb an extra 15 - 20 hits, and statistically speaking, they're a good unit"
iNcontroL and Tyler: Giant rant about something that Painuser never even said.
Painuser: "Thors absorb a tonne of front-loaded damage"
iNcontroL: Bunch of argumentative bullshit that has nothing to do with what Painuser said.
Etc etc etc.
Basically, it seemed like Painuser was just trying to share some interesting thoughts on the match-up/possible strategies and the other guys just instantly shit on anything he said. It's just disappointing to hear supposed 'pros' dismissing ideas out of hand based on red herring 'arguments' when there could have been something to gain from discussing those ideas.
Personally I can't understand why iNcontroL would be against his meatshield units being better meatshields (with +1 armor), because that's what it sounded like. All I heard was argument for the sake of argument, or at best argument for the sake of proving Protoss is worse off.
But truthfully the worst thing is that you didn't even give your guest the benefit of the doubt. We hear your thoughts every week, and although I can understand the arguing with guests like Artosis, it really shouldn't be that way with guests like Painuser (who was dam good, btw) whose thoughts we may not hear again (though I hope we do).
TL;DR: Let your guests talk a bit more before jumping all over them. We hear you guys every week, we may never hear them again.
(I'm aware that Painuser was remarkably good spirited about it all btw... But I'm saying this more for the sake of the content in the podcast rather than for the sake of your guests)
If I recall the immediate response was that it did matter, but not substantially since with high marine numbers and high stim fire rate, that many shots elapse in a fraction of a second. I'm not sure if I agree, but that was a direct response, not a brushing aside.
Personal thoughts on Guardian Shield / Armor for Zealots: Guardian Shield at the very least is difficult to work, since it demands that an easily sniped 100 gas caster is essentially on the front line in order to protect the Zealots. Adding more redundancy by contributing more Sentries to the charge group also adds more risk and loses more force fields for every Sentry sniped. Considering how crucial force fields are for virtually all engagements as Protoss, the risk for protection must be carefully weighed. Of course if the Terran doesn't feel like sniping a single Sentry escorting the Zealots, all you'll lose is a force field and a half immediately, and the possibility of gaining more energy on that Sentry later (the escort Sentries are guaranteed to die since they're much closer to the Terran ball than the rest of the Protoss army.)
Armor demands that the Protoss use double forge or lose damage upgrades, both sacrifices to weigh carefully. I'll have to hear more about what pros feel before abiding by a particular opinion here.
Back to SotG: I think the hosts also stressed that Zealots' sheer stats including damage didn't matter so much as their health alone since they're never expected to actually inflict damage or have shields in a huge engagement. As Tyler repeated many times, they're there to die for the Colossi.
I agree that guests should be free to say however long of a spiel they have, but also that the everyone involved should be able to have a natural, heated debate without worrying about offending people.
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803 Posts
On November 19 2010 00:49 cyprin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 00:47 robertdinh wrote:
Why does incontrol not take responsibility for his own comments. He acts like he is completely innocent and that select shouldn't dislike it. he didn't say anything that should be taken as negative?
What are you talking about? He has outbursts all of the time, yea they can be taken lightly, but they are still vulgar and tacky.
I personally don't care if select likes or dislikes incontrol, it isn't a big deal, I just found it silly that people try to play innocent when they don't conduct themselves in a professional manner, and often times it is downright immature.
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Woo loved the latest cast and incontrol/tyler standing up for the protoss problems without calling for stupid buffs but pointing out the true weaknesses, i respect painuser as a player and think he is a great terran but he does like to whine about DT's alot for some random reason after watching his stream and stuff, i cant see how preparing for dts by a few missle turrets(engineering bay should be a must anyway for going bio) is a huge issue while forced into a tech path (robo) for banshee is not as bad. Could be bias myself though and im not a top notch player so yeah.
But i love the cast and i really enjoyed the match up overview with top player insights.
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This cast was awesome. I loved the strategic discussion, as you guys don't usually go into such dephs. My only complaint is to stop talking about mlg rules, extended series, kespa, etc. It's really boring to listen to. I'd show this podcast to friends but I feel these segments would kill it.
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On November 19 2010 01:03 Twistacles wrote:
This cast was awesome. I loved the strategic discussion, as you guys don't usually go into such dephs. My only complaint is to stop talking about mlg rules, extended series, kespa, etc. It's really boring to listen to. I'd show this podcast to friends but I feel these segments would kill it.
stop being a wuss... you wouldn't show a 3 hours show to your friends...
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If I recall the immediate response was that it did matter, but not substantially since with high marine numbers and high stim fire rate, that many shots elapse in a fraction of a second. I'm not sure if I agree, but that was a direct response, not a brushing aside.
Not substantially? 53 shots instead of 33. That's, fking, HUGE. Marines are the main DPS dealers in the terran bioball, don't forget that. Marauders seem really imba and all, but marines deal the major DPS(with stim)
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I love the podcast and Incontrol is a big part of that, but people are being way too lenient with the Select situation. Incontrol and the rest of the gang were basically shitting on him. The tone of their voice and the general way they were discussing him was ridiculous, especially Incontrol because by all impartial metrics Select is either at worst his peer or more likely a superior player. If you're Select it probably seemed pretty petty for these guys to be taking shots at him. I know a healthy ego is important in any competitive endeavor but come on. Geoff seems like a great guy but he is known more as a personality than a competitive player, and a little self awareness on that fact would go a long way.
Don't take this as me shitting on Incontrol or anything. I hope he tears it up in Korea when he goes back. You just have to be able to look at it from Select's viewpoint, where a less accomplished guy with a big platform is basically potshotting him on what is Starcraft's equivalent of the NY Times or Wall Street Journal.
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On November 19 2010 01:15 desrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 01:03 Twistacles wrote:
This cast was awesome. I loved the strategic discussion, as you guys don't usually go into such dephs. My only complaint is to stop talking about mlg rules, extended series, kespa, etc. It's really boring to listen to. I'd show this podcast to friends but I feel these segments would kill it. stop being a wuss... you wouldn't show a 3 hours show to your friends...
Huh? I'm saying that they wouldn't be interested and it would get stale for my more 'casual' friends. IE: People in plat and lower.
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On November 19 2010 00:52 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 00:49 cyprin wrote:On November 19 2010 00:47 robertdinh wrote:
Why does incontrol not take responsibility for his own comments. He acts like he is completely innocent and that select shouldn't dislike it. he didn't say anything that should be taken as negative? What are you talking about? He has outbursts all of the time, yea they can be taken lightly, but they are still vulgar and tacky. I personally don't care if select likes or dislikes incontrol, it isn't a big deal, I just found it silly that people try to play innocent when they don't conduct themselves in a professional manner, and often times it is downright immature.
I don't want to debate what is professional or not, but yes, to certain degree there is always a risk of misinterpretation and backlash when criticizing someone else in a sarcastic or cavalier manner. Repeatedly. With dick and ass-f**king references.
InControl has every right to be disappointed that Select thinks that he's a jerkass, but he shouldn't be surprised. Does anyone seriously think Shaq and Kobe are good friends, after all the shit Shaq talks about Kobe and every other player in the league?
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The toss/terran debate was one of the most satisfying moments in SoTG history. No offense to Painuser, but I just don't think he quite gets the PvT matchup from the P side. His arguments were shallowly defended, failed on even a theoretical level (let alone the results in practice), and indicated to me that he fails to grasp the REAL issue at hand. The real issue is subtle, it's not that protoss is necessarily weak. Painuser knows that protoss is strong because he's felt strong protoss play before. What he's missing though is that WHEN that strong play happens, that protoss player guessed 100% correctly with both building/teching/Expanding/Timing. If that cannot be achieved, the room for error while still ending up victorious is almost nil. Every point Tyler and Geoff made was honest fact. I'm really glad to hear pros speak up about the lack of viable options that Protoss has right now.
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Hey great show guys but uhh.. You need to figure out your technical shit.
Haha, I couldn't resist. (Although you probably won't read this anyway!) :p
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On November 19 2010 01:25 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +If I recall the immediate response was that it did matter, but not substantially since with high marine numbers and high stim fire rate, that many shots elapse in a fraction of a second. I'm not sure if I agree, but that was a direct response, not a brushing aside. Not substantially? 53 shots instead of 33. That's, fking, HUGE. Marines are the main DPS dealers in the terran bioball, don't forget that. Marauders seem really imba and all, but marines deal the major DPS(with stim)
Oh I agree that the difference in those numbers is substantial. I already expressed my doubts to the hosts' response; I was mainly pointing out that it was in fact a direct reply to what Painuser was talking about, not a dismissal.
To sate my curiosity I found that 30 marines killing 15 zealots take ~9.5 seconds at 33 shots per kill vs. ~15 seconds at 53 shots per. Enough time for much devastating colossus laser action. However, random hypotheses like this don't indicate much about how more organically created in-game situations will unfold.
I'm sure the hosts have their reasons for being skeptical of the impact of supposed numbers in an imaginary situation. They need to consider where they can cut chrono boosts and money to keep armor ahead of Terran weapons, how this will affect when and in what force colossus and their tech deploy, how this will affect early sentry count and energy accumulation, how sentry use will affect engagement dynamics, etc.
They hosts have spoken to their experience, and I prefer that they keep it that way, since they're likely to know more about what they've done than what they might possibly do after dozens of games of experimentation.
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amen.
banshees are sooo stupid and you cant even scout if he's getting cloak or not if you see the starport there is no way of knowing if hes getting any uppgrades or just making units.
you have too make a million observers just in case only too find out he just made that one banshee and now hes comming with a huge push you cant defend.
luckily the protoss stargate show you exactly what your making.. wtf is up with that? not that it really matters as every unit from the stargate is horrible so nobody makes them anyway.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On November 18 2010 05:50 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:19 kaisr wrote:
when tyler said his mechanics were better in BW than sc2 did he mean in compared to everyone else or in absolute terms? both. i had better mechanics (way better) when i was at my best in bw than i have now in sc2. and in bw i had the best mechanics outside of korea along with idra, which i cant claim to have atm with sc2. recent history prior to sc2 beta: i quit bw in february 2009 and came back in january 2010. idra definitely surpassed me mechanically during that time, and he was mechanically superior when we were playing TSL2 (january - february 2010) but not so superior that he could win every game based purely on mechanics, and also not so superior that he could rely purely on mechanics to win a bo5 (map preferences definitely played a role there though -- he wouldnt rely on mechanics on a protoss favored map but he would on a terran favored map). but note that at the time of TSL2, idra had been playing full time in korea (~10 hours a day) for about 2.5 years or so. i came off a 10 month break, and played about 30 hours a week while taking a full load of classes, and was still able to brush up in about a month to mechanically dominate everyone in TSL2 except idra.against tarson, for example, who i had to play after i'd been practicing for only 3-4 weeks, i chose some safe builds and i just micro'd and macro'd. it should be kind of telling of my style of play, and the strength of my mechanics, that i'd choose to rely on mechanics in the ro16 of the TSL despite practicing so little. of course, being able to get back in shape quickly isn't what matters the most. idra did achieve better mechanics than i ever did.
O_O/
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EPT
