|
On June 30 2012 09:52 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:37 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly. Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes. That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention. I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game. zergling faster than hellion zergling only 25 minerals compared to 100 zergling no need extra building, terran needs factory and reactor
Not to mention zerg doesn't give a shit if you're not attacking them, they'll happily drone because all they need to do to win is just defend up and then attack when they have an econ advantage. Patrolling the map with zergligns compared to hellions is not close at all, zerglings are there to help scout armies so you're not caught unaware, terran is constantly making units instead of workers only so this isnt a problem.
|
On June 30 2012 09:52 kinglemon wrote:
zergling faster than hellion
zergling only 25 minerals compared to 100
zergling no need extra building, terran needs factory and reactor
Zergling isn't faster than hellion, speedling is.
Hellion kill countless zergling if microed
|
On June 30 2012 09:41 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:37 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly. Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes. That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention. I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game. Problem is you cannot afford to do that when a Zerg is macroing, you have to try and keep up. Hellions put you behind because they don't delay stuff anymore.
I'm not a good enough player to say how Terran can or should be played ...
but for someone to say a hellion is categorically useless seems wrong. Maybe they aren't as effective as they used to be. But there has to be a useful transition out of them, or a time later in a game where they can do some kind of damage.
Hang in there, Terrans. You still flying cloaked DTs and space marines that are useful at any stage of the game. I believe in you!
|
On June 30 2012 10:05 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:41 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:37 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:
[quote]
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on.
Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design.
Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly. Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes. That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention. I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game. Problem is you cannot afford to do that when a Zerg is macroing, you have to try and keep up. Hellions put you behind because they don't delay stuff anymore. I'm not a good enough player to say how Terran can or should be played ... but for someone to say a hellion is categorically useless seems wrong. Maybe they aren't as effective as they used to be. But there has to be a useful transition out of them, or a time later in a game where they can do some kind of damage. Hang in there, Terrans. You still flying cloaked DTs and space marines that are useful at any stage of the game. I believe in you!
Helions are not very good if you don't push with them early with Bio/Helion or you go Mech. If you Mech you'll build them because you can't just build gas units on the limited bases you can take but they aren't exactly great. Harassing with them is also only useful early on since once the game progresses even slight base defense completely shuts them down. ( Banshees btw too ). The Helion attack is just too wierd for them to be really effective in actual combat.
|
So Idra argues against someone who he is better than and he pulls the "you are fking awful card". What happens if MKP or MMA show up and tell him the matchup is broken? Granted, Avilo is pretty abrasive when he talks about balance, but he made some good points and I think QXC agreed with much of it. As far as incontrol, i don't know if the dude is insecure because he is no longer remotely relevant to the SC2 pro scene but it seems like all he does is troll people and make smartass comments.
still an entertaining show. Idra whine ftw!
|
I'm not a good enough player to say how Terran can or should be played ...
but for someone to say a hellion is categorically useless seems wrong. Maybe they aren't as effective as they used to be. But there has to be a useful transition out of them, or a time later in a game where they can do some kind of damage.
Hang in there, Terrans. You still flying cloaked DTs and space marines that are useful at any stage of the game. I believe in you!
The problem is that massing queens beats all of those units. There isn't a unit we have that can harass the zerg anymore.
|
On June 30 2012 09:45 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Wat? Terrans have like... 15+ different openings for TvZ, and none of them out-side of an all-in are able to do any damage to zergs anymore. The whole metagame behind TvZ was "if you just let them make drones, then you deserve to lose" and that was fair. Now it's "you can't prevent them from droning, you deserve to lose" Zerg is going to outmacro you HARD no matter what you do as terran. It's not a matter of economy, it's a matter of not having anything to use in the late game which is what all the econ builds go for. Zerg is just better at all 3 stages of the game right now, one of them has to be made weaker.
You've entirely missed my point. Lets say for arguments sake terran players have exactly 15 different openings in TvZ, those openings are based on OLD TIMINGS, which are no longer effective given the current queen buff. Terran's using old openings to exploit old, no longer existing timings, and then failing is not balances fault in any way at all. Terrans can have a thousand openings in TvZ but if every single one punishes old timings they are completely useless. That isn't a balance issue. Terrans will develope new timings to damage new zerg builds in time, and when that time comes the game will be even closer to balanced (than it was pre patch).
EDIT added portion in parenthasis at the very end
|
On June 30 2012 07:59 Amlitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
None of that is Avilos fault though, it's YOUR fault as a host. YOU decided not to have him speak on last weeks SotG back when you all were shit talking better players than yourself. YOU decided to not let him speak in till after QXC had already trampled all over Idra's "argument", which made him more moody than usual. As a close friend of his YOU should know how ridiculously emotional Idra can get when he is on tilt from losing, yet YOU did nothing to stop it. Yeah, Avilo is kind of dumb for walking into such an obvious trap, but he is young and is allowed to make those mistakes. I however expected a lot more maturity from people who are nearly TWICE this kid's age. Also, congrats on saying more in this one post than you ever have so far in SotG. Why don't you give us this insight where people will actually be able to see it, like the show is intended?
What the fuck? I can't believe someone would say that in an earnest response to nony's post...
|
Personally I don't see what all the fuz is about. Yes the discussion got a little heated.
Idra said some things, but Idra and Avilo have history so he has a short fuse when it comes to him. Who can blaim him for bringing a gun to a gunfight.
As for JP cutting Avilo off. Imo it was the right call. At the right time. And when the show was ending he explained why. For the better of the show. Which it was.
Incontrol... Can't see he did anything wrong.
Nony was being mellow. That's so Raven (pun intended)
QXC was trying to be explain what Idra and Avilo ment. Doing his best, but there was no "fixing" the situation.
As for Avilo. I doubt he'll be comming back. As Day9 said to Idra a year ago when Idra said Z couldn't scout: We can't know what's going on yet. In 3 months if Terran is still losing at the high level, then we can talk about fixing stuff. We just don't know yet because there haven't been tens and thousands of games at a high level yet. Meaning top Terrans haven't tried everything. Let's wait and see what happens in the metagame before we cry broken.
|
That was pretty much, idra keep sayign the samethings and qxc not calling him out to avoid making a scene.
I would much prefer show not spending time on that.
|
On June 30 2012 10:16 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not a good enough player to say how Terran can or should be played ...
but for someone to say a hellion is categorically useless seems wrong. Maybe they aren't as effective as they used to be. But there has to be a useful transition out of them, or a time later in a game where they can do some kind of damage.
Hang in there, Terrans. You still flying cloaked DTs and space marines that are useful at any stage of the game. I believe in you! The problem is that massing queens beats all of those units. There isn't a unit we have that can harass the zerg anymore.
Mass queen beats marines, especially marines with stim?
I don't think so.
|
As for IdrA trash talking MKP, at this point it's more of a running joke than anything else. IdrA sure doesn't like MKP's style, which is understandable as it is very different from his, but come on, IdrA is aware that MKP is obviously very good, with top notch mechanics and all that.
I'm a fan of MKP's, but I found very funny the snickering when they mentioned MKP finishing 4th in his Ro16 group :D
Edit: IdrA speaks of MKP in about the same terms as he does of Avilo, he can't be that serious ;D
|
The funny thing here is not one of them are that much better then Avilo. They are all ladder streaming hero's.
|
On June 30 2012 10:42 elmizzt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:59 Amlitzer wrote:On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I don't think avilo had anything unique to contribute to the discussion. It's his mistake for wanting to come on the show without any good reason to come on the show. He either thought what he had to say was unique and compelling OR he felt his authority was great enough that there's value behind him in particular putting his weight behind common arguments and observations. It wasn't so bad for the show before the latest show, when he originally wanted to come on, but following the qxc/idra discussion was very bad.
None of that is Avilos fault though, it's YOUR fault as a host. YOU decided not to have him speak on last weeks SotG back when you all were shit talking better players than yourself. YOU decided to not let him speak in till after QXC had already trampled all over Idra's "argument", which made him more moody than usual. As a close friend of his YOU should know how ridiculously emotional Idra can get when he is on tilt from losing, yet YOU did nothing to stop it. Yeah, Avilo is kind of dumb for walking into such an obvious trap, but he is young and is allowed to make those mistakes. I however expected a lot more maturity from people who are nearly TWICE this kid's age. Also, congrats on saying more in this one post than you ever have so far in SotG. Why don't you give us this insight where people will actually be able to see it, like the show is intended? What the fuck? I can't believe someone would say that in an earnest response to nony's post...
He also seems to think avilo is a child and idra is a middle aged man :/
Some people just clearly weren't watching the same show.
|
On June 30 2012 11:00 KingRajesh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 10:16 Talack wrote:I'm not a good enough player to say how Terran can or should be played ...
but for someone to say a hellion is categorically useless seems wrong. Maybe they aren't as effective as they used to be. But there has to be a useful transition out of them, or a time later in a game where they can do some kind of damage.
Hang in there, Terrans. You still flying cloaked DTs and space marines that are useful at any stage of the game. I believe in you! The problem is that massing queens beats all of those units. There isn't a unit we have that can harass the zerg anymore. Mass queen beats marines, especially marines with stim? I don't think so.
hurr durr i dont make any lings or anything at all....
User was warned for this post
|
Before the patch every TvZ was the exact same thing in the first minutes. Hellion vs Queen spreading creep. More than balance, I believe in the boring to watch factor.
|
On June 30 2012 01:42 iNcontroL wrote:
rabble rabble rabble ! ! ! !
I can't believe IdrA said stfu to someone! - WHO THE FUCK is shocked by this? SERIOUSLY. If IdrA doesn't like someone it has been shown, time in and time again that he will tell them exactly what he thinks. Avilo has EARNED his position in the community. 99% of the people bitching are looking in on something they have no clue about.. they see IdrA an etablished pro not being decent to Avilo a scumbag whiner who constantly attacks us every chance he can get.. it just so turns out nobody gives a damn because they were trained to ignore him by his constant balance whining.
Oh my god, iNcontroL is a bully because he was snickering during the interview and he makes fun of avilo! -- HELLO, I fucking mock EVERYONE. That very show I teased khaldor and wolf. Is there anyone I haven't mocked or teased? Does that make me a bully? Only if you are insecure or uninformed I guess. I mock friends AND I mock shit heads. Avilo happens to be a shit head. He is a broken record on balance AND he is a broken record on his insecurity with who is talking about him.. if that makes me a bully FINE. I guess that is the case. I fucking tried to hand that kid an olive branch and promoted his stream but he turns around and goes ape shit in this very thread one week ago naming me over and over as someone who failed in WCS which meant he was better etc etc.. I don't give a fuck if you guys don't understand my teasing and mocking of him but if you don't care to TRY to understand then wtf?
JP cut him off without letting him finish? Oh the horror! -- He was at that time incoherently babbling over IdrA about how he "agreed with greg" and kept twisting what greg was saying around as if it was a point in favor of terran. The argument was neither entertaining nor was it informative.. it was a guy hopping on the show after starting a shit storm the week before, first thing he asks about is me teasing him or taking "pot shots" and then he goes on to interrupt idra, take his words and twist them and speak over everyone else.. greg lost his cool and JP controlled that shit. Should he have barked over Avilo "thanks for coming on" and then hung up on him? I guess in some wierd internet way that would be less impolite.. ok.
We called it. We said this was Mia Rose all over again. A terrible idea amidst an otherwise fine show. So that is on us. But I got to be honest with you: Fuck a lot of you. Fuck you forever. Get all up in arms about Avilo and start trashing IdrA, JP and myself. Asking for us to quit the show and leave SC2. This show isn't earning me or IdrA money. And lately, it has been really fucking annoying actually. We aren't allowed to make mistakes when we discuss shit. We have to give context for everything we say to be careful that some uppity 30 post prick who has been around for 6 months won't run off and try to create drama.
This shit WILL blow over because at the end of the day there is no grabby sound bite.. there is no image of greg double birding the screen in a fit of rage. There is a bunch of insecure asshats interpreting things as bad as they possibly can with 0 context for why Avilo was spoken to that way. It just sickens me how completely tunnel visioned a lot of this community is.. you WANT to get people fired you WANT to make people break and snap.. great.
Well enjoy your 2.3 days of drama. After this avilo will go on to shit on everyone he talks to that doesn't agree with him. He will continue to play the martyr for as long as the community will give him that attention. We are going to keep doing the show because most of you deserve it and we will continue to make the same kind of jokes and from time to time make mistakes by allowing people on the show that don't deserve it and bring out the worst in people.
I find it quite interesting to look back at this reply along with the other prominent members of the community commenting on the issue. All of them, like Kennigit, JP, Nony and I'm sure there are others that either haven't commented yet or don't feel the need to. They distance themselves from the situation, they admit things went too far and that such behavior isn't really optimal or viable in the long term. All but you Geoff. Much of what I wrote is thoughts I sat with after watching Kennigit's vlog from today, I urge everyone to watch it!
Your whole post is about justifying your behavior when there's really no reasonable way of justifying it. The context isn't really relevant as to your behavior. You among others on the show are acting like 15 year old jocks towards a guy but this time not around your gang but in front of 10k or so viewers. I find it acceptable of you to ridicule people by making counterarguments about what they say and laughing about what someone said. But to start making fun of someone for the way they speak shows your immaturity and totally ravages what "context" you had to lean against when justifying your actions. You acted on Inside the Game and on this SotG typically of what a bully in high school would, except for the fact that you are well over twenty years old.
You ended up attacking/making fun of shit about him that's not in his control, and you should apologize for that. If you are so blind that you think the fact that he can be a whiny about balance and that he attacks you and EG sometimes would somehow justify you doing that then you are fucking wrong, and you need to grow up.
The other part of your defense is that you treat others just the same way. So first you talk about context for why you teased Avilo, well what about the context here? This is where context actually holds any value, and you comparing what you did towards Avilo with the shit about Wolf and Khaldor is downright laughable, you seriously need to get a grip. Furthermore you show how little you understand about the situation, unless you are seriously identifying yourself as a bully, although I kind of doubt that.
Next I will touch on what I believe is the essence of what I am talking about here. You are asking us to try to understand why you treated Avilo like a sack of shit. Well, you see Geoff, a guy of your status shouldn't treat ANYONE like a sack of shit in front of 10000 people. I remember you writing something along the lines of "you are not special, we (the hosts on SotG) are, we matter" when addressing haters. Well, yes, you are special, you are a prominent figure in the scene, perhaps it's time to start fucking acting like it. Oh and don't think you're irreplaceable and magnificent in it of yourself, you're not.
If all I wrote in this post or the previous one doesn't affect you at all, then there is one thing I especially want you to reflect upon. What made you use Avilo's speech impairment as something to make fun of him over? You see this is where I can definitely say you are acting like a child, because no responsible person would just throw shit like that out to get a laugh, unless it is towards a person he/she knows can take it. Jon Stewart makes a lot of impressions, have you ever seen him do it towards a basically unknown person? In front of 10000 people you made fun of a guy of less prominence than yourself for his lisp, and that sir, was a douchey thing to do.
Lastly I'd just like to say that I am a fan of yours. I think you're a great caster, you're funny and you're quite likable. I've followed you performances for over two years now and I want you to succeed as a player. This post isn't from a hater, but a fan. I want you to reflect on the way you acted and urge you to lose the behavior of a fifteen year old, you're a grown soon to be married man, act like it.
Edit: I'm sure there a numerous typos in my post, but it's late...I'm gonna go sleep!
|
Could we get an actual show like that discussion every week? The qxc idra debate was sick.
avilo ... idk. he reminded me of combatEx with how he spoke initially to geoff and with how he chose to debate. it was... I just couldn't follow it.
|
United States7483 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:06 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. The BFH nerf hardly put them into oblivion. Ghosts still get used in TvP despite recieving two nerfs to EMP in seperate patches. Tanks are still used despite nerfs. Nerfs =! unit unusable. There's actually only one unit that's "unusable" due to nerfs, and that's the reaper.
Thorzain still uses the reaper regularly for cheap, reliable scouting where a scan could completely miss, and lategame TvP for harass and to pull into his composition behind his other bio to annihilate zealots.
|
On June 30 2012 11:53 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:06 goiflin wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. The BFH nerf hardly put them into oblivion. Ghosts still get used in TvP despite recieving two nerfs to EMP in seperate patches. Tanks are still used despite nerfs. Nerfs =! unit unusable. There's actually only one unit that's "unusable" due to nerfs, and that's the reaper. Thorzain still uses the reaper regularly for cheap, reliable scouting where a scan could completely miss, and lategame TvP for harass and to pull into his composition behind his other bio to annihilate zealots.
That's so smart o.o.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
