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On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them.
Actually hellions are useless. Ghosts are a poor choice in TvZ because any good zerg does what qxc said, keep his infestors behind. And with the Queen buff you will not be able to catch them out of position because of the creep spread. Ravens are too expensive and are useless for a very long time. They sorta are useless.
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On June 29 2012 23:08 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 22:38 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 22:35 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:29 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On June 29 2012 22:22 Rabbitmaster wrote:On June 29 2012 22:19 Elldar wrote:
So, you had to have QXC to say what Avilo was "trying" to say because he had made poor arguments and silly examples (which was so funny that they made JP laugh), when he started to derail everything from a debate he got cut off, what a surprise. How did avilo derail the debate? I agree his arguments weren't that solid, but i think the people telling him to "shut the fuck up" are the ones derailing the debate. No, people telling him shut the fuck up were just stating the fact. Avilo was like a student that decided to teach his teacher. It was irritating and stupid. He was clearly on the show for drama only and that is what we got. Only people complaining in here are either Avilo fanboys (good thing they didn't do this to Destiny :D) or the most hardcore whiners that moved over the that Terran whine topic that was closed recently. I had never even heard of Avilo before this show. And telling a person to shut the fuck up in a debate, no matter how bad one party is doing, is both bad mannered and immature. Also i play protoss, not terran. I have a problem with this kind of behaviour, nothing else. If you look at it as a debate from equals then that is true. And if Idra said to QXC at any point to shut the fuck up I would also be here holding a pitchfork or a torch but to Avilo?! Did you listen to him at all? As I said, it was like when a teacher who obviously knows much more then you tries to teach you something and you start acting like he knows shit and you should teach him what did you expect?! Has never in your schooling years a teacher told one of his students to Shut up? Idra being avilos teacher. Are you serious with that comparison? wth I don't know how long you have been following Sc2 but Idra has been a relevant player for a very long time. In addition to that he has been talking balance and tactics for as long and has almost always been right (and he admitted to being wrong when he did like when he called Nestea bad after Nestea 1st GSL win and admitted being wrong). Then him an QXC have a really good and smart talk about current state of TvZ. The Avilo comes in and shows kid like knowledge and understanding, ignores all that has been said prior to that. Yes, my comparison stands.
I have followed the scene since beta and Idra isnt playing at the highest level anymore for a long time now.
Avilo is a player good enough to talk to i guess.
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On June 30 2012 09:03 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 05:31 dvorakftw wrote:On June 30 2012 05:20 Dosey wrote:
That's actually the 6th picture and easily overlooked. Especially if you're just trying to find a quick picture because someone refuses to turn on his webcam. It's the second pic of avilo. I could go for debate points but discussing fine points of language but will skip that to say it takes a normal human a fraction of a second to look at the results of the google image search of avilo sc2 to see there was more than one choice and that avilo did not refuse to turn on his webcam - he did but they couldn't get it to work. Nice try, though. User was temp banned for this post. So I'm confused... Why was Dvorkftw banned? Which commandment did he break? That post seemed completely benign.
Mod told him to stop talking about the picture. He did not stop talking about the picture.
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On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless.
Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable.
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On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable.
What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly.
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On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether.
This is absolutely true!
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If you're a smart person, then you know it's best for your own and everyone's health to avoid this thread at all. I'm not smart, and you neither when reading this.
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On June 30 2012 09:25 Mczeppo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether. This is absolutely true!
Honestly idra has a personality of an asshole (No surprises there, after calling other people fucking terrible and basically tell them to fuck off). He also has strong zerg bias. Of course almost EVERY pro player has a bias on race he's playing but Idra is a special case. If Idra was playing terran he would be shitting on zerg and complaining about balance/OP/whatever exactly as Avilo did.
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Hellions are useful early and if, for some reason, you want to go mech you can make them all game and like it (sort of).
They don't stop creep spread quite as well as they used to, minus the occasional darting around and sniping of creep tumours, newly planted ones or ones not covered by a queen, but they are still a good thing to get early. The difference between now hellions and prepatch hellions is once you've got enough scouting in and you feel the zerg isn't doing some timing and is in fact saturating 3 bases it's best just to sacrifice the hellions, run 'em into a drone line and kill as many drones as you can before they die.
It's not great but it's better then useless.
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People feel bad for avilo, before sc2 he was a "pro" in the redalert 3 scene. He was such a problem in our community that he was banned from nearly every webforum for insulting people in balance discussions. He single handedly made a rift within our already small and struggling stream... watching idra cut him down to what he is made me smile. Avilo lacks some serious social skills.
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On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly.
Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes.
That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention.
I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game.
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On June 30 2012 09:33 Elvin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:25 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether. This is absolutely true! Honestly idra has a personality of an asshole (No surprises there, after calling other people fucking terrible and basically tell them to fuck off). He also has strong zerg bias. Of course almost EVERY pro player has a bias on race he's playing but Idra is a special case. If Idra was playing terran he would be shitting on zerg and complaining about balance/OP/whatever exactly as Avilo did.
What I find most funny is that Idra claims Zerg has random weak timings for Terrans to attack, and then goes on to claim that one of the best Terran in the world is bad because he does random stuff once in a while.
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On June 30 2012 09:38 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:33 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 09:25 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether. This is absolutely true! Honestly idra has a personality of an asshole (No surprises there, after calling other people fucking terrible and basically tell them to fuck off). He also has strong zerg bias. Of course almost EVERY pro player has a bias on race he's playing but Idra is a special case. If Idra was playing terran he would be shitting on zerg and complaining about balance/OP/whatever exactly as Avilo did. What I find most funny is that Idra claims Zerg has random weak timings for Terrans to attack, and then goes on to claim that one of the best Terran in the world is bad because he does random stuff once in a while.
Why would that make you laugh? Theres a big gray area between a terran doing random bad stuff, and zergs having certain vulnerable timings....
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On June 30 2012 09:36 Destro wrote:
People feel bad for avilo, before sc2 he was a "pro" in the redalert 3 scene. He was such a problem in our community that he was banned from nearly every webforum for insulting people in balance discussions. He single handedly made a rift within our already small and struggling stream... watching idra cut him down to what he is made me smile. Avilo lacks some serious social skills.
Second this btw. I don't like seeing incontrol being a dick, but I do like bad things happening to people I dislike, in this case avilo!
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On June 30 2012 09:37 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly. Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes. That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention. I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game.
Problem is you cannot afford to do that when a Zerg is macroing, you have to try and keep up. Hellions put you behind because they don't delay stuff anymore.
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On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where
Wat?
Terrans have like...
15+ different openings for TvZ, and none of them out-side of an all-in are able to do any damage to zergs anymore. The whole metagame behind TvZ was "if you just let them make drones, then you deserve to lose" and that was fair. Now it's "you can't prevent them from droning, you deserve to lose" Zerg is going to outmacro you HARD no matter what you do as terran. It's not a matter of economy, it's a matter of not having anything to use in the late game which is what all the econ builds go for. Zerg is just better at all 3 stages of the game right now, one of them has to be made weaker.
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On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Ghosts are a poor choice in TvZ because any good zerg does what qxc said, keep his infestors behind. And with the Queen buff you will not be able to catch them out of position because of the creep spread. Ravens are too expensive and are useless for a very long time. They sorta are useless.
Hellions go well with marine marauder pushes, very commonly seen in gsl tvzs. They also get to be part of the BFH and marine strat to punish zerglings and banes with tech.
I'll admit if you are facing a BL infest army, ghosts aren't the answer. But if you watch games like the one freaky had in code A you'll know that terrans are rediculously against ghosts, forgetting they exist. Ghosts need to be flavored in, Their absence makes ultralisks with infestors and banes seem like a good comp.
Ravens..yeah. You need good micro, but ravens stop an unkillable zerg deathball by punishing clumping. However, they require a very specific lategame scenario, and can be owned by infestors if you suck at raven micro=get ghosts.
Overall, I hazard a guess that some very narrow timings could/are being laid down to make those now deemed useless units useful. Because their are problems with those units niches as solutions.
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On June 30 2012 09:37 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:23 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:20 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On June 30 2012 09:14 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 09:09 Defacer wrote:On June 30 2012 09:03 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:On June 30 2012 08:50 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
Probably because zerg didn't get their late game nerfed repeatedly as this went on. Zerg can have a strong early game, but why the hell do they get an insanely ridiculous late game with no possibility of terran being able to compete with it? This patch just highlighted how insanely imbalanced zerg is when they do not have to fear harassment. Terran simply does not have the units required to compete with a zergs race design. Zerg needs a late-game nerf or a hard production nerf. I am more than fine with larve inject being nerfed so for once zerg needs more than 4-5 production facilities. This patch really highlighted how insanely stubborn terrans are. Terrans are just not changing it up. Hell even with zero change to the PvZ metagame protosses are experiementing with going back to gateway first instead of forge fe. Where are the terrans doing new things? It seems like no where Are Terrans supposed to pull "new thing" out of their ass? At the start of the beta everyone thought that siege tank sucks (60pure damage,75 with upgrades). After some time we saw their usage more and more until they were nerfed to (60->50 and after that 50-> 35(light). Same with reapers and BFH. They are heavily used for 2-4 weeks and then BAM ,nerfed to oblivion. Same with ghost and RAVEN Patch 11 (version 0.13.0.15250) Seeker Missile range has been decreased from 9 to 6. Seeker Missile splash radius has been decreased from 2.4 to 2. Seeker Missile upgrade no longer requires Fusion Core. Patch 1.3.3 (Undocumented) PDD no longer stops broodlings from spawning from brood lord attacks. TLDR: You are dumb. One of the things that IdrA pointed out is that even though there has been some nerfs to Terran unit, it doesn't mean those things are suddenly worthless just because you can't a-move or insta-win with them. Actually hellions are useless. Shit like this is why balance discussions are laughable. What, am I going to do a hellion run by into his queen that is blocking the ramp? Am I going to try and control his creep? I can't. The creep spread advances too quickly. Most Terrans and Protoss wall off and position their units in such in a way that makes zerglings seem pretty useless in the first ten minutes. That doesn't mean I can't use lings to scout, control the map, or counter attack when they are out of position or not paying attention. I like to think of this as a 'strategic' use of lings, inspired by Blizzard's suggestion that SC2 is a real-time 'strategy' game.
zergling faster than hellion
zergling only 25 minerals compared to 100
zergling no need extra building, terran needs factory and reactor
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On June 30 2012 09:40 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 09:38 Woizit wrote:On June 30 2012 09:33 Elvin wrote:On June 30 2012 09:25 Mczeppo wrote:On June 29 2012 23:36 IshinShishi wrote:
QXC's discussion with Idra was decent, but not good enough, Idra has a golden boy personality("I am always right, stfu") and QXC is not the type of guy that is gonna call him out on that, so whatever discussion they can have is essentially limited, you could see that at several times when Idra threw some general statements with nothing to back them up, and while Qxc definetely had something in mind to say, he chose not to, it was somewhat subtle but you could see there was discomfort for him to be in that situation, it was kinda like arguing with a tribe leader surrounded by his people.
If you play greedy, zerg can always play greedier than you SAFELY, or choose to bust you, because the same building used for building workers, can be used for units, which means that they can go 3 hatch and still bust you for doing 3cc, terran does not have that option, and there's no answer to that lack of options, you either go full-blown macro, or you don't, there's no in-between, it's how the game works nowadays, some suggest doing 11/11 or 12/14 to gain a decent econ advantage while being somewhat safe, but that's always naturally a big gamble that can't and shouldn't be relied on, late game problems is another discussion altogether. This is absolutely true! Honestly idra has a personality of an asshole (No surprises there, after calling other people fucking terrible and basically tell them to fuck off). He also has strong zerg bias. Of course almost EVERY pro player has a bias on race he's playing but Idra is a special case. If Idra was playing terran he would be shitting on zerg and complaining about balance/OP/whatever exactly as Avilo did. What I find most funny is that Idra claims Zerg has random weak timings for Terrans to attack, and then goes on to claim that one of the best Terran in the world is bad because he does random stuff once in a while. Why would that make you laugh? Theres a big gray area between a terran doing random bad stuff, and zergs having certain vulnerable timings....
It's precisely that it's a big gray area that it makes me laugh at it, especially since we all know the results of how both players fare in TvZ. It's up to you to see the humour in the attitude of how Idra calls people out.
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EPT
