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On June 30 2012 07:55 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:25 crms wrote:
What generation/age group are all of you that are grabbing pitchforks over this avilo interview? Who are you people that are complaining about SOTGs (FREE VIDEOGAME ONLINE PODCAST)not being professional enough? I really have to fucking know because if people are this butthurt over so called 'unprofessionalism' in that broadcast last night, they probably would have committed suicide during Howard Sterns reign on terrestrial radio. Is it the younger generation that's so hyper-sensititive to being offended (which is odd as they grew up with the internert) or is it the older jackoffs that demand professionalism anywhere and everywhere? WHO ARE YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS? Exactly. Adam Corolla hangs up on Ann Coulter and calls her a bitch on his show -> everyone loves him SoTG hangs up on Avilo after he starts taking cheap shots at IdrA -> all hell breaks loose with people that apparently are completely out of touch with almost everything in the world and have unreasonable expectations with everything they see or hear.
I love Adam Corolla. ^_^
Sponsor emails a-hoy if something this 'unprofessional' happened in eSports, makes you kinda nervous when you think of the direction this community is going and how shit it could end up being. 
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On June 30 2012 08:07 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:04 Dodgin wrote:On June 30 2012 07:36 Whitewing wrote:On June 30 2012 07:26 MrCon wrote:
Good post Nony.
You nailed it with the "sweet spot". It's still early, but it is very possible that no such spot exist anymore. That's why most terrans are at a loss atm. Pre patch, the matchup was balanced with zergs taking a way later 3rd, having less creep spread and having to invest more in defense. How could it still be balanced if all those disadvantages are removed. This is a very theorycrafty point yes. And I'm sure most terrans were fine with the patch when it was announced (I was all for it). They just didn't understand why Blizzard would buff one side of a balanced matchup, but it still sounded fine in theory. In practice tho, this was one of the biggest buff in zerg's history. Or at least one of the buffs that changed a matchup the most. I'm not sure it was intended as such. And warranted.
And this is only on a player standpoint...on a spectator standpoint, this patch ruined the best sc2 matchup. TvZ is now TvP bis.
Again, perhaps it'll change with new builds. But seeing how TvZ was razor edge balanced with skill being always the deciding factor, I don't see, in theory again, how such a major buff could make things better. And I think the idra-qxc debate, while constructive, was so far from the concrete terran concerns that the chat started to ask for Avilo who could provide a "punchier" argument. Which wasn't a very good idea obviously. You missed the point entirely. His entire point was that discussing the idea that "there is no sweet spot" is pointless, useless, and merely an exercise in frustration. You can't know that, you don't have evidence of that, and you haven't tried everything. No player has tried everything. And no, the matchup wasn't balanced before the patch. The problem with a " sweet spot " is that it also depends on map size, and right now there's a lot of huge maps like metropolis/atlantis/whirlwind in the map pool. I don't think that's helping Terrans. I seem to recall that in Broodwar, players had different strategies for different maps to adjust for map size and terrain features. Why should there be a catch-all build that works on every map? Part of balancing the game is making fair balanced maps to accommodate the races. Maps like Antiga Shipyard are too good for Terran, while maps like Atlantis Spaceship are too good for zerg. I'm struggling to think of a current map that is 'too good' for protoss. I almost jumped immediately to entombed valley but the GSL statistics have it pretty damn even, it's even slightly Z favored ZvP.
I don't have a problem with having to use different strategies on different maps, but right now in GSL/GSTL when a Terran picks a map it will always be Antiga Shipyard. Zerg might pick Daybreak, Atlantis, Metropolis. They seem to have a lot more options for " good " ZvT maps. I'm not sure when they will finally retire Antiga from professional play but It's going to be tough if they keep making these huge maps when Terran seems to do worse on bigger maps.
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On June 30 2012 08:06 shinyA wrote:
1 - They shouldn't have had Avilo on the show but if they were going to have him then they should have been professional about it. Geoff and JP are both morons, sit back and shut up if you're going to bring on someone to talk about TvZ. If you had any reason other than having him add to the discussion then why are you making fun of him and laughing and all that in the background? Because they didn't bring him on to add to the discussion, they brought him on in an attempt to ridicule him and entertain people which was wrong.
Jesus Christ. they were laughing at the fact that JP opened the screamer link.
Edit: How you could have watched that and not notice the unbelievably loud screaming just before those two started laughing is beyond me.
On June 30 2012 08:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:55 fraktoasters wrote:On June 30 2012 07:25 crms wrote:
What generation/age group are all of you that are grabbing pitchforks over this avilo interview? Who are you people that are complaining about SOTGs (FREE VIDEOGAME ONLINE PODCAST)not being professional enough? I really have to fucking know because if people are this butthurt over so called 'unprofessionalism' in that broadcast last night, they probably would have committed suicide during Howard Sterns reign on terrestrial radio. Is it the younger generation that's so hyper-sensititive to being offended (which is odd as they grew up with the internert) or is it the older jackoffs that demand professionalism anywhere and everywhere? WHO ARE YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS? Exactly. Adam Corolla hangs up on Ann Coulter and calls her a bitch on his show -> everyone loves him SoTG hangs up on Avilo after he starts taking cheap shots at IdrA -> all hell breaks loose with people that apparently are completely out of touch with almost everything in the world and have unreasonable expectations with everything they see or hear. Everyone knows that Ann Coulter is a bitch though, even if you somehow tried to make the argument that Avilo is as horrible a person as she is (I don't think even IdrA would try that one), he's still not as well known. It's not the same thing.
He called her a bitch because of how she acted towards the show not what she has done prior.
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On June 30 2012 07:48 theJob wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:17 Batch wrote:On June 30 2012 06:56 Quotidian wrote:
yeah.. so can we get QXC as a regular, please? I loved QXC and would love to see him in SotG more. But I rather see him as a guest every few shows than as a regular. I also think QXC makes a great addition to the regular lineup of the sotg team, aswell as idra. Not sure about making them regular pillars because I can't imagine the show without the existing ones. I guess invite them as special guests as often as possible because they bring great analysis and insight into their respective races.
I am not sure yet I like the Idra & InControl combination, it feels a bit too much like I am watching Inside the Game, it is nice to see them on both shows, but it is even nicer to see more pros with different opinions. I do get it though, it is much easier for JP to put the show together this way since Idra and InControl are both available pretty often for this type of thing. Hmmm..come to think of it, I think it is a good combination when Idra is in a good mood, because I think InControl is one of the few people that can make Idra laugh, and it is pretty funny to see Idra laugh, like something surreal...
And we are having regular shows again! Also, this show was by no means bad, in fact I really enjoyed the discussion between QXC and Idra. I would actually rate it 90% great, and the show before was hilarious, InControl nailed it. And we have had 2 shows in a really short time. Really, people should be more grateful about how much effort they are putting into getting this show out regularly again, instead of whining about some small drama in 10 minutes of the show.
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On June 30 2012 07:55 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:25 crms wrote:
What generation/age group are all of you that are grabbing pitchforks over this avilo interview? Who are you people that are complaining about SOTGs (FREE VIDEOGAME ONLINE PODCAST)not being professional enough? I really have to fucking know because if people are this butthurt over so called 'unprofessionalism' in that broadcast last night, they probably would have committed suicide during Howard Sterns reign on terrestrial radio. Is it the younger generation that's so hyper-sensititive to being offended (which is odd as they grew up with the internert) or is it the older jackoffs that demand professionalism anywhere and everywhere? WHO ARE YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS? Exactly. Adam Corolla hangs up on Ann Coulter and calls her a bitch on his show -> everyone loves him SoTG hangs up on Avilo after he starts taking cheap shots at IdrA -> all hell breaks loose with people that apparently are completely out of touch with almost everything in the world and have unreasonable expectations with everything they see or hear.
Sigh, I guess seeing public figures consistently act like obnoxious assholes on air is one of the reasons some of us don't find this kind of thing appalling. Kind of sad, all things considered, how rare common courtesy has become. Did you know, that around these parts, it is common to reprimand a person who interrupts others during a discussion with "don't talk over others, this isn't the Parliament"? So much for public service.
In any case, the fact that tons of people around the world are obnoxious and rude to others does not make them any less obnoxious and rude; just makes the world a bit less pleasant. With their combined effort, JP, Incontrol, Idra and avilo managed to turn that segment of SotG into a talk show version of all these shitty forum arguments present in this thread. I don't really care about professionalism or whatever, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.
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On June 30 2012 07:59 Amlitzer wrote:
I however expected a lot more maturity from people who are nearly TWICE this kid's age.
24*2=48
In what world is 26 "nearly" 48? And that's not even bringing up the fact that Idra is a couple years younger.
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On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots.
the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger.
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I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
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On June 30 2012 08:25 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots. the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger.
Now, I'm not going to say that I know WHAT terrans can do, but saying that there is no new sweet spots because terran didn't get buffs is pretty silly. Terran has plenty of tools that they don't use, that they could fiddle around with.
I dunno if there IS a new build in ZvT that can pressure your opponent without being an all-in, but saying because terran didn't get buffed that there won't be another build is kinda silly.
I mean seriously, when's the last time terran even got a buff? And we've been seeing new builds come out from T players often. It might take a while, it might be the largest mountain the terran's have to conquer, or it might be insurmountable. But saying that they didn't get buffed = no new builds isn't really true.
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On June 30 2012 08:30 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:25 kinglemon wrote:On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots. the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger. Now, I'm not going to say that I know WHAT terrans can do, but saying that there is no new sweet spots because terran didn't get buffs is pretty silly. Terran has plenty of tools that they don't use, that they could fiddle around with. I dunno if there IS a new build in ZvT that can pressure your opponent without being an all-in, but saying because terran didn't get buffed that there won't be another build is kinda silly.
So what happens if we find another build and then Blizzard nerfs that?
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Anyone else bothered by Idra shit talking MKP? Like.... How does he even pull that off?
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On June 30 2012 08:39 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:30 goiflin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:25 kinglemon wrote:On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots. the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger. Now, I'm not going to say that I know WHAT terrans can do, but saying that there is no new sweet spots because terran didn't get buffs is pretty silly. Terran has plenty of tools that they don't use, that they could fiddle around with. I dunno if there IS a new build in ZvT that can pressure your opponent without being an all-in, but saying because terran didn't get buffed that there won't be another build is kinda silly. So what happens if we find another build and then Blizzard nerfs that?
How is that even a valid question?
I guess in this hypothetical universe, you find another build. Seriously. There has been no terran buffs that have directly resulted in terran using more of x unit, or terran changing their playstyle around that buff. Terran has consistently been nerfed since the start of the game, but they always seem to find another build to pull off and win games.
Don't be so pessimistic!
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The avilo thing was just out of order imo randomly making fun of people?
I see avilo on the ladder now and then yes he rages yes he turtles but hey who doesn't rage from time to time?
But the way incontrol,idra and JP acted is just beyond stupid i wont watch the show ever again i'll just watch the eu ones where they don't call up people to laugh in there face!
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United States7483 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:14 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:06 shinyA wrote:
1 - They shouldn't have had Avilo on the show but if they were going to have him then they should have been professional about it. Geoff and JP are both morons, sit back and shut up if you're going to bring on someone to talk about TvZ. If you had any reason other than having him add to the discussion then why are you making fun of him and laughing and all that in the background? Because they didn't bring him on to add to the discussion, they brought him on in an attempt to ridicule him and entertain people which was wrong.
Jesus Christ. they were laughing at the fact that JP opened the screamer link. Edit: How you could have watched that and not notice the unbelievably loud screaming just before those two started laughing is beyond me. Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:02 Whitewing wrote:On June 30 2012 07:55 fraktoasters wrote:On June 30 2012 07:25 crms wrote:
What generation/age group are all of you that are grabbing pitchforks over this avilo interview? Who are you people that are complaining about SOTGs (FREE VIDEOGAME ONLINE PODCAST)not being professional enough? I really have to fucking know because if people are this butthurt over so called 'unprofessionalism' in that broadcast last night, they probably would have committed suicide during Howard Sterns reign on terrestrial radio. Is it the younger generation that's so hyper-sensititive to being offended (which is odd as they grew up with the internert) or is it the older jackoffs that demand professionalism anywhere and everywhere? WHO ARE YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS? Exactly. Adam Corolla hangs up on Ann Coulter and calls her a bitch on his show -> everyone loves him SoTG hangs up on Avilo after he starts taking cheap shots at IdrA -> all hell breaks loose with people that apparently are completely out of touch with almost everything in the world and have unreasonable expectations with everything they see or hear. Everyone knows that Ann Coulter is a bitch though, even if you somehow tried to make the argument that Avilo is as horrible a person as she is (I don't think even IdrA would try that one), he's still not as well known. It's not the same thing. He called her a bitch because of how she acted towards the show not what she has done prior.
It doesn't matter why he did, the viewers already had that impression of her.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:41 Mellowman wrote:
Anyone else bothered by Idra shit talking MKP? Like.... How does he even pull that off?
Idra making fun of MKP started as serious a long long time ago.
Over time since MKP has improved and shown consistently solid results it has become akin to the HuK top 3 control comment. Doesn't come across right if you havent been following SC2 since very early on though so I can understand how you can react like that.
Idra is partially serious though as MKP does like to do a lot of random shit which is actually really bad in the hands of almost any other Terran player but somehow only MKP can pull it off. He's not someone you try to learn how to play terran from, its just, not possible.
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United States7483 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:25 kinglemon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots. the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger.
Of course there are new sweet spots, zergs are doing different builds, that opens new sweet spots.
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On June 30 2012 07:55 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 07:25 crms wrote:
What generation/age group are all of you that are grabbing pitchforks over this avilo interview? Who are you people that are complaining about SOTGs (FREE VIDEOGAME ONLINE PODCAST)not being professional enough? I really have to fucking know because if people are this butthurt over so called 'unprofessionalism' in that broadcast last night, they probably would have committed suicide during Howard Sterns reign on terrestrial radio. Is it the younger generation that's so hyper-sensititive to being offended (which is odd as they grew up with the internert) or is it the older jackoffs that demand professionalism anywhere and everywhere? WHO ARE YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS? Exactly. Adam Corolla hangs up on Ann Coulter and calls her a bitch on his show -> everyone loves him SoTG hangs up on Avilo after he starts taking cheap shots at IdrA -> all hell breaks loose with people that apparently are completely out of touch with almost everything in the world and have unreasonable expectations with everything they see or hear.
How was avilo taking cheap shots at idra? Idra was just pissed because avilo did the same thing idra will usually do when his race isn't performing so stellarly.
Anyway I think part of the reason might be european tv differing in some aspects from american tv/radio. While people are allowed to curse on air here I have never seen anyone getting berated or shut down in that manner.
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On June 30 2012 08:30 Defacer wrote:
I'd like to remind people that it took a full year before the zerg queen range and overlord speed was buffed.
During that time, Zergs endured imbalanced maps with close positions or cliffs over exansions, and ridiculously abusive units/builds like two-shot blue flame hellions and reaper rushes. We had to try everything under the sun to remain competitive.
It wasn't until guys like Aquanda and Spanishiwa proved the viability of no-gas high econ/larvae openings* that Zergs seemed to get some kind of footing, and even then it felt like the only way Zergs could win was if they spotted and exploited an error by Terrans.
I'm not going to argue that ZvT is balanced, but a month and a half of Terrans mostly doing the same tired variations of hellion openings definitely does not prove it is imbalanced.
*Think about how radical it is to not get gas until you have 30-plus drones. Can you imagine how many times Spanishiwa had to lose, over and over again before he perfected that opening? Are there any Terrans that are experimenting in such a manner?
If things we're so terrible, then why did Nestea win the GSL code S 3 times? Why did Fruitdealer win the GSL code S? Why did Curious win Code A? Why did Losira win Code A? Why does Stephano take so many tournaments? Why does DRG win so much? Why does Idra have so many wins on his name? Surely you are not going to tell me that these players are so much better than their Protoss and Terran counterparts, that by pure talent they could overcome a completely unbalanced and unplayable race?
The thing is, the game has never been so out of balance that it becomes impossible for a race to win, and it still isn't, Terrans can still win tournaments. What is changing is the way the game is played, it becomes late-very late game more and more often, and I am not sure that is such a great thing. In tournaments I feel the games are becoming more and more boring.
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MKP vs Idra make it happen JP!
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On June 30 2012 08:42 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:39 Femari wrote:On June 30 2012 08:30 goiflin wrote:On June 30 2012 08:25 kinglemon wrote:On June 30 2012 06:00 Liquid`NonY wrote:
When a patch comes that significantly changes a matchup, what is usually happening is most of the known sweet spots are no longer so sweet. That's IdrA saying that the old builds don't work. What are the new sweet spots?
the problem is that there are no new sweet spots. the patch only reduced viable terran builds, and definitely didn't make any terran builds stronger. Now, I'm not going to say that I know WHAT terrans can do, but saying that there is no new sweet spots because terran didn't get buffs is pretty silly. Terran has plenty of tools that they don't use, that they could fiddle around with. I dunno if there IS a new build in ZvT that can pressure your opponent without being an all-in, but saying because terran didn't get buffed that there won't be another build is kinda silly. So what happens if we find another build and then Blizzard nerfs that? How is that even a valid question? I guess in this hypothetical universe, you find another build. Seriously. There has been no terran buffs that have directly resulted in terran using more of x unit, or terran changing their playstyle around that buff. Terran has consistently been nerfed since the start of the game, but they always seem to find another build to pull off and win games. Don't be so pessimistic!
It is a valid question to a lot of Terrans. I know quite a few who think "What is the point they make sure to nerf everything we have".
I mean I'm still trying but look at what we have. We can't use reapers. Hellions are shit now. Ravens are too expensive for any advantage they'd give up. Ghosts do not help against a good zerg unless that zerg makes a giant mistake.
We have been nerfed to hell which really limits our options.
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