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Really blown out of proportion, but what I've expected from gaming communities now so w/e.
Some constructive criticism (assuming anyone from SotG will actually see this, but maybe someone will).
I really liked the QxC Idra debate although it was pretty clear QxC really didn't feel it was broken. After they brought up that Code S terrans aren't struggling I was hoping they'd address the difference in tournament types and results in TvZ.
In GSTL Season 2 Terrans are 3-13(18%) against Zerg and from Spring Arena 2/Spring Champ/Gigabyte/DH Summer only 3 Terrans (Alive, MKP and Polt) have won matches in the knockout stage against a GSL quality opponent. I'm not claiming the matchup is completely broken as this is mostly anecdotal/statistically irrelevant, but does the crew feel that the matchup will favor Zerg when players are just forced to play mechanically and not able to prepare for their matches? QxC always gives very intelligent answers, so I'd be especially curious to hear his thoughts on it.
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... State of the Game has always had these kinds of mini arguments, even between it's main members (I remember Incontrol and Artosis/Day9 arguing once, great episode). This is nothing new. It's actually what makes SotG so fun and dynamic to watch. SC2 may be the direction of the talk, but it's the personalities that actually create the show.
Just stop watching it if youre having some ethical conundrum.
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Map developers can always just change the maps to fix the "imbalances." I think the important thing is for the game to be fun, so that we'll have a fun game as a foundation, and map makers can fix the imbalances around a fun game. As the game currently stands, I don't know if it's really fun, regardless of the map being played. That's my personal philosophy. And 99% of the people who read this will never place in any significant tournament or event so I think it's funny. For people who see SC2 as mostly a spectator thing and not participatory, again the maps can be tweaked.
Change the number of mineral patches, gas geysers at the mains, at the naturals, the availability of naturals, the size of the maps, everything changes. The current map trends aren't set in stone, and I think people forget that. I just want a fun game.
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Sure Avilo is really awkward, but he had good intentions. All it would have taken was for Idra/Inc to actually be nice to the guy and things would have been fine. Situation was just handled poorly by multiple people that failed act like proper adults.
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Just wanted to say I support JP, IdrA and iNcontroL. avilo was being annoying and they do this show to provide us great content in their own spare time. At the End of the day all that was avilo'S PRiDE so no harm no foul. Stop making a drama over nothing.
<3 you guys over at State of the Game. Keep up the good work and thank you for bringing us great content.
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I am disappointed with the Avilo segment in the last show. I really don't think Avilo's history with other players or Idra's statement that it was a bad idea to bring him on excuse the manner in which he was treated. He was set up to fail from the start. I don't care about Avilo's balance whines on the show or off the show but he deserves respect while being a guest on it. He was insulted and made fun of in a mean, not playful way. Making fun of him and making fun of a good friend of someone on the show is a completely different thing because the intentions are different. Laughing at someone and laughing with someone are different.
I feel like SOTG is an entity in itself rather than a bunch of individual's opinions. As a whole, SOTG usually brings about rational, relaxed, and entertaining discussion. Unfortunately this segment did not live up to the high expectations I have for the show. The reason I have high expectations is because I really like the show and it has proven to be the best Starcraft show around. So the backlash including this post can be taken in a positive light if you can see that people post so much and it's such a big deal because they care. Of course there will be some drama mommas but I think a lot of people including myself really just like the show and hold it to a high standard. Of course our standards don't have to necessarily reflect the show's standards but I still think it's important for fans to communicate their feelings to to show, preferably respectfully and rationally.
That being said, this isn't the biggest deal in the world. It's just a minor incident where some nerds have a feud with another nerd about a video game. That's it. None of their lives have been ruined because of this and things will work out if everyone is a little more chill and take some deep breathes every now and then.
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They acted like a bunch of bullies, regardless of what you think of Avilo, the way they treated him as a guest on the show was inappropriate from the start and made him feel uncomfortable. Very unprofessional.
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On June 30 2012 14:59 HuHEN wrote:
They are a bunch of bullies, regardless of what you think of Avilo, the way they treated him as a guest on the show was inappropriate from the start and made him feel uncomfortable.
The argument: "you're blowing stuff out of proportion" is the most common argument used by a bully. You may be up to something..
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I hope SotG spends less time talking about balance in the future. It's really not an interesting subject, especially when there was a patch so recently and nobody really knows anything yet, even if they think they do. Surely there are better--more positive, more interesting, more substantive--topics in the world of Starcraft 2 that are more deserving of discussion.
I'm not saying there has to be a kind of categorical rule or taboo against the topic: if there's some kind of persistent disparity in the performance of races that's basically causing a race to disappear from the pro scene over time, then by all means, discuss! Even less severe possible imbalances might be worthy of discussion, once they've had enough time to really ruminate and you have a stable metagame to analyze. But giving a platform to run of the mill post-patch balance whine? Maybe that's what some people enjoy watching, but certainly not me. I know SotG can do better.
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i just finished watching god bless america (highly recommended btw, excellent movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1912398/ ) and i was able to draw several similarities to this situation. both partys were in the wrong but imo avilo = steven clark
its time to turn the page folks, it was wrong of the sotg guys to gang up on avilo but that being said avilo acts like an idiot online so the dude was asking for it. gotta get a taste of your own medicine once in a while
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Why do people whine about Idra's bully attitude? I don't get it. It's part of the show. He's on the show exactly for that: for being the short-tempered asshole that complains and swears at invitees. Personally he made me stop listening to this (excellent) show, but that's just me not liking trash-talk radios. A lot of people love it, and I'm not going to tell them what to listen or JP who to invite.
What's sad is that there is no other good show without trash-talk. That, is sad. But I'm sure one'll come.
[Edit: to be fair, Idra has an excellent understanding of the game and can make good arguments when not blinded by rage]
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Now before I say anything about this, I just want to let everyone know I’m not out to start drama or anything and I’m taking the time to bash people. These are just my thoughts and constructive criticism for the show and future of ESports.
I should state that I am also aware that I may have misheard some statements, but I tried to listen very closely to the episode over and over to get it right.
I am also NOT going to go into the conversation topic, because that is not the reason for this article. I don’t care about balance or queens or Terrans or whatever. Again, that’s NOT the point of this article.
Now, I think that the conversation that isn’t mentioned above is also important. QXC and Idra talked for an hour about the same thing that Avilo tried to talk to Idra about. There was no swearing and it was a good argument. You can also take note that two people can argue without fighting. An argument doesn’t have to have shouting, swearing or blatant disrespect. The argument that preceded Avilo coming on the show had none of that.
Once Avilo came on the show, the first thing he said was how he appreciated being on the show. I also included some statements after, showing that no one else on the show said anything back. The first statement back was InControl talking about his hat.
The first thing that should have been said should have came from JP. JP should have said something like, “Good to have you here Avilo, thanks for taking the time out of your day to join us.” A simple, yet very effective compliment back to a guest on your show is something that can go a long way. It show s that you care about guests as well as showing all the viewers that you care.
Avilo then asks Geoff a stupid question. This may be kind of confusing as to why this is a bad move on everyone’s part…but let me explain. It’s a bad move on Avilo’s part because he’s not a regular on the show. As a guest, I would prefer you to not ask questions about anything that isn’t SC related. Knowing that a lot of the other people on the show clearly don’t respect you, don’t give them ammo. What occurs after just shows the lack of experience of the others. Everyone, except for QXC could have made it better. Everyone else could have said, “Avilo this isn’t the time for that. I’m sorry, but if you would please continue on with your reasons why Zerg is so powerful right now, that would be better for the show.”
The statement above shows Avilo that SOTG is clearly not the place to ask such questions because, again, you aren’t a regular on the show. The pre-show banter is some of the best material, don’t get me wrong. I love when everyone laughs and has a good time. I love when Artosis talks about his breakfast or his Bran-Flakes Bars or when he makes himself a shark on his webcam, just to name a few. It’s not a bad thing to have non-SC related content, but make it a pre or post-show thing. This should also be noted for the guests of SOTG as well.
While Avilo was beginning to talk, JP searches for Avilo SC2 to put a picture under the black slot that would regularly have a webcam. What comes up first a picture of Avilo for an interview with gamereplays.org. This picture also just happens to have Avilo holding what looks like a stuffed animal of some sort, possibly a good luck charm that is referenced in the interview. Of course, this is the one that JP selects, instead of the other picture that comes up of Avilo under his TL Wiki site. This again, is starting to show poor choices when there are clearly better ones to make and adding fuel to the fire.
Later, Avilo mentions something very interesting. He says something about a player named luckyfool and his blog on TeamLiquid.net. Immediately you have InControl saying, “He missed that one,” as well as Idra adding a sarcastic comment about how he regularly reads his blog.
I’m not about to talk about how Idra needs to come down off of his throne and stop acting the way he does, but I will say that he needs to start respecting people. You can BM in matches because you’re pissed off that you lost or you can leave games without saying GG. That stuff doesn’t bother me. But when you are on a show that is important to the SC2 scene and gets a lot of viewers, you have to act like a grown up. Avilo was trying to make a statement that he’s not the only one who thinks this way and there are other people on the blogs of TeamLiquid that talk about strategy.
Avilo’s point was just because someone is not popular or even in Master’s league, doesn’t mean they don’t have good things to add to the game of StarCraft. You CAN’T, while on a popular show about SC2 or any other game for that matter, start bashing the ideas of others who aren’t as talented as you are! That’s the equivalent of a professional Baseball player immediately bashing a reporter based solely on the grounds that he or she doesn’t play in the major leagues. This is soooo bad for not only your image, but your teams image as well. How many people want to root and cheer for a team that bashes SC players in the diamond league?
Before I get to the end of the Avilo and the end of the episode, I want to make a couple additional comments. QXC was absolutely fantastic in this episode. He supported Avilo because he saw that Avilo was struggling a little bit to get his point across to Idra (which ultimately was the reason that made Idra so mad). He picked up the end of the conversation very well to help the episode move forward as well. Very nicely done. I’ll no doubt enjoy any episode that you are on!
Another comment I would like to make is the constant snickering and laughter. In the write up of the episode, I make it clear when JP and InControl laugh, sometimes out loud. Again, you have a guest on that you don’t like. Fine…I get it. But as the host of a popular show with lots of influence, I feel like it’s in the best interest of the show if you show some respect. I’m not sure what it was about, but I don’t think that that matters. I think it’s different if you don’t have a guest on the show or if you’re doing (my all time favorite) a drinking show.
*** I’m not trying to tell you how to act during your own show. Some may even see this is as jealousy. I want to make it clear that I’m not out to bash SOTG. I LOVE this show! I just found some things in this episode that bugged me and can be fixed. I hope that everyone can understand that I’m taking time out of my life to write this up to help out. I hope to encourage everyone to only get better at what they do.
Now, the fact that Avilo was losing or winning the argument doesn’t matter. The fact is, both Idra and Avilo tried to talk at the same time. Idra felt that he got cut off while trying to make a point, and told Avilo to shut the fuck up. I don’t even have to talk about how bad this really is. But I will anyway. This is really bad! It’s bad to the point where it stops being funny. It WAS funny a year ago watching videos of Idra raging in games. That’s different than blatant disrespect.
Getting mad during competition…who isn’t guilty of that?! That’s the Idra that everyone loves. This Idra is totally different. You can’t have this happen. The first person to blame is Idra. But then who stepped in at this point? Who didn’t see more of this coming?! JP could have also stepped in, stating about how the argument was going nowhere. That’s a GREAT way of cutting off the argument that was getting too heated.
InControl tried to step in, but maybe at the wrong time. After Avilo had already begun talking again, InControl cuts him off to defend his teammate who had already told Avilo to shut the fuck up. Defending the aggressor makes you look just as bad. Play to your strengths InControl! This would have been a PERFECT time for some of your humor! You could have said, “Hey everyone…ten points to me for having to listen to a TvZ debate for so long! Looks like I win the argument!” Do you see how this not only brings the attention back to you, but also calms everyone down? Doing these things will make for a much better show.
Now this is where I understand the frustration for Idra. Avilo is clearly not as good as Idra or QXC is when it comes to debating. Avilo started to say the same things over and over again and started to say things that Idra clearly didn’t say. This, however, gives Idra no right to call Avilo a fucking imbecile. You say something like, “This clearly isn’t going anywhere and I don’t feel like arguing anymore. InControl, what do you think of all of this?” Or…”This argument is making me mad. I don’t think my race is overpowered and that’s all I have to say about that.”
The first statement deflects the attention away from you, allowing you to calm down and regain your thoughts without snapping. The second statement ends the argument. Both statements are obviously better than what Idra said for obvious reasons.
JP drops Avilo from Skype. Really? Is that how you’re going to treat every guest who gets disrespected by someone on your show? Drop the person getting disrespected?! How can anyone want to have a heated discussion on your show now? If Idra swears at QXC because QXC makes a fantastic point, would you drop QXC because you don’t want to drop Idra? I really don’t understand this at all. Avilo said nothing, except being a little poor at debating, to warrant that kind of behavior. Taking the easy way out on this one was a bad choice.
InControl clearly wasn’t paying attention to the argument either. Whatever InControl thought that Avilo said to Idra was wrong. I’m not 100% sure what InControl said at the end of his statement, but it’s nowhere near accurate. Also, apologizing because you know you did something wrong is a good step in the right direction and I’m glad that an apology was made, even if it sounded half-hearted, before the end of the episode.
So what can we learn from all of this?
I hope that, with some practice, that SC players will get better at handling themselves in the spotlight. It’s very easy to get lost behind a computer screen and talk shit during a game – and then lose yourself once you are out of that game.
It’s hard to adjust to being the face of news in SC. It’s hard to have your conversations examined by people. I know that if I had an argument examined by someone, they would probably have harder criticisms for me! I’m just trying to make the ESports scene better, starting with the way we treat each other.
Gold, Diamond, Grand Master…it doesn’t matter.
EG, TL, fnatic, Dignitas,…it doesn’t matter.
I hope that I didn’t piss anyone off with this article. That wasn’t my intention. I hope that whatever happens, happens for the better of ESports. That’s my goal – helping ESports becoming the best that it can be. As long as ESports continues to put out good content, some big things will happen.
Thank you very much for reading.
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State of the game is going to turn in to state of the shit we stirred up last week.
boring
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On June 30 2012 15:13 ROOTT1 wrote:
it was wrong of the sotg guys to gang up on avilo but [...] the dude was asking for it.
Avilo first ESPORTS rape victim?
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I'm trying hard to not be condescending here but...no one is going to read that. You are literally one person viewing the show out of around ten thousand, they have no reason to listen to you tell them every way they should behave to conform to your idea of professionalism on their podcast.
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And people don't just stir up drama for no reason, its just genuinely upsetting to see "respected members of the community" behave like children, maybe Avilo is a troll, or has been an asshole to them in the past, I don't know the back-story. What I do know is that watching that was uncomfortable, because they really did come across as a gang of cool kids picking on the runty weirdo, no matter who someone is, no matter how they treat you, you are expected to treat them with a basic level of respect in order to maintain your "higher status" otherwise your are just stooping to their level.
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Yo Idra how dare you not keep up with my blog daily....wtfbro!
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On June 30 2012 15:29 Heavenlee wrote:
I'm trying hard to not be condescending here but...no one is going to read that. You are literally one person viewing the show out of around ten thousand, they have no reason to listen to you tell them every way they should behave to conform to your idea of professionalism on their podcast.
Why do we have discussion boards like this if not so that the anonymous fan can get his viewpoint expressed, I must say the sc community has a thick vein of elitism running through it.
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On June 30 2012 15:30 LuckyFool wrote:
Yo Idra how dare you not keep up with my blog daily....wtfbro!
ahahahahhah best post in this thread in recent history
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Was going to post in the branched thread, but apparently it died.
I think it's deplorable that people are allowed to gang up on a relatively mannered individual and then have the gall to claim that he was the rude one. However, when you realize who two of the major figures were in this gang up, two prolific members of EG, it starts to make sense. I think that just like the fighting community has to grow up fast now that they're getting bigger and slightly more in the public eye, so too must the SC2 community become more professional (albeit to a lesser degree).
Idra shouldn't be on a talk show, that much is pretty obvious, but I don't blame him. He doesn't claim to be a good speaking public figure/role model, and that's fine. But the other members of SotG continuously vouching for him, particularly his team captain, seems short sighted and immature. Rest assured that if people were disrespectful in content and delivery in this way in professional sports, people would get fired.
Now the main counterargument to this, I'd imagine, is that SC2 and eSports are inherently adolescent/young adult dominant and we cannot ask the players to be professional in this manner. However, look at the only country where eSports have been televised consistently for a decade. Korean pro gamers are expected to have an air of maturity and respect about them, and that has happened to coincide with a somewhat publicly accepted culture of eSports in Korea.
I don't chose to watch primarily Korean SC2 just because they tend to be the better players, but I also do because I can respect them and what they do. This is also why among foreign teams I follow mostly only TL.
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EPT
