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On December 15 2011 05:45 Moralez wrote:
Just low quality vod ?
Said it will just be low quality for now until the other bitrates process.
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On December 15 2011 03:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:47 Whitewing wrote:On December 15 2011 02:44 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 15 2011 02:28 Condor Hero wrote:On December 15 2011 02:25 -Archangel- wrote:On December 15 2011 02:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
i lost three respect points for gomtv for kicking naniwa except they didn't kick him but only didn't choose him for Code S spot. No he actually earned that spot. yep he earned it from MLG Providence, getting 2nd to Leenock who was already in Code S. if gomtv doesn't agree with that, then they need to take it up with MLG and there are much more serious problems afoot. anyway, the reason they lost respect is because they're doing something that isn't optimal for anyone or anything. as far as i can tell, the only explanation for this move is that they've made it personal with naniwa and they just want to hurt him. and unlike naniwa, who made a bad decision when in a situation where it's very difficult to think clearly and have a good perspective, gomtv folks actually took their time responding to this incident, so that they could think perfectly clearly about it and consult people and get a good perspective and make the best move possible. and yet they still do something that's more destructive than constructive, same as naniwa. and i think that falling back on cultural differences is just insulting their critical thinking ability and their competence as international businessmen. that is, if they were competent at their jobs and were able to think like intelligent adults, they would not do non-optimal things for cultural reasons. They're doing it for business reasons. They need to send the message that it's not okay to do things like this, so this punishment accomplishes that. It tells the viewers "this is a serious competition, every match, and we want to keep it that way so you get value for your money." Whether it's a good business decision is another question, but I seriously doubt they are doing it to be vindictive towards Naniwa. i dont know what punishing naniwa by revoking the code S spot he earned accomplishes that couldn't be accomplished in any other way. i have already discussed this issue with a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people and one of the points that is pretty much universally agreed upon is that the organization running the competition is in the best position to prevent this from happening. they prevent it from happening by removing any possibility for inconsequential games and by making sure players know in advance that they will be required to try their hardest in every match in order to participate in their event. the most effective way of preventing it is certainly not making an example out of the guy who did it ignorantly. no one has ever suggested that. gomtv decides to act on a very vague rule with a very severe punishment, why? naniwa's offense was not clearly defined going into the tournament and there was no hint at what the punishment would be at all. i can't read the original korean, so i can't speak with complete confidence, but it seems to me like the application of the rule they cite is quite a stretch based on the translation. and they just make up a punishment when someone breaks it. they're very far removed from proper and effective use of a system of rules and penalties. they certainly were not compelled by their own rules to do what they did. so using this rule is an excuse to punish him. what this move accomplishes business-wise is to make everyone working with them fear them. if you do anything that they don't expect, anything that they weren't clear on or didn't bring up at all, and it works against them, then you should expect a very severe response from them. even if they set you up to do something that's bad for them, they'll still not say anything beforehand and if you go ahead and do something that's bad for them, they retaliate harshly. imo the standard good business philosophy is to cover your ass as much as possible. and when a business fails to do so, it minimizes damages and learns and fixes the problem for the future. if you are the big kid on the block and you wanna be a bully, then yeah you can be careless and when something goes wrong, don't admit fault and then slap the other guy down and make everyone hate him. if they really think that's optimal, then i'll admit that i don't know everything they know about their own business, so i can't press that too hard. all i can say is it's very improbable that that is optimal. and even if it is optimal for their own business, it's not optimal for the industry. so even if you do want to shield them with "they're just doing what they think is best for their business" i still lose 3 respect points for them. if they owned up to their mistake and stood by naniwa, then i think this is a situation where it's quite possible to use propaganda (not in an evil deceptive way, but legitimate propaganda to get the masses to understand your decision and agree with it) to make themselves look good, make naniwa look good (which they want because he's in their league and he's one of the few foreigners, extra valuable to them) and make their league look stronger than ever heading into the new year. but no, they're apparently incapable of that (either because of incompetence or emotions). edit: apparently the conduct rule wasnt used in the official explanation. if that's true, then it's even worse. they went from having a rule that, when stretched, barely is reasonable, to having no rule and just a spontaneous penalty.
I agree completely. It's easy to demonize NaNiWa, from a fan's perspective. We wanted to see that game. I wanted to see that game. It sucks that we didn't get to, but, we can all agree: that game was pointless. NaNiWa made a bad decision, but how different was this from him doing a proxy 2-gate? Or from doing a 4gate?
How is this less acceptable than Nestea's own throwing of a championship game? Why can GOM arbitrarily decide to punish a foreigner with a shaky or non-existent rule? They're simply covering up for their own mistakes, where they, as tournament organizers, failed everyone.
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but what happens when a foreigner puts a manner nexus in a base? Do they get banned arbitrarily, too? I guarantee you that had this been any Korean, there would be no punishment. The reason everyone freaked out is twofold; because NaNiWa is a foreigner, and because it's NaNiWa. NaNiWa is very BM. He makes some bad decisions. He and Nestea have a grudge, and Koreans feel that he is disrespectful because of it.
But you know what? Beyond that, NaNiWa broke no clearly-defined rules. He had something that was promised to him taken away as a knee-jerk reaction to one bad decision, and that's fucking retarded.
So, sorry GOM, I will not be purchasing a season 1 pass if you actually go through with this, and if clear steps aren't made to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again, I may not ever buy another pass.
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Actually if he had been Korean I think the punishment would have been more severe; an actual ban if not a lifetime one. I think they went easier on Naniwa precisely cause he was a foreigner, and also because he seemed to not really know the severity of his actions after committing them. Anyway, that's all speculation so it's hard to tell what they actually would do. I do agree with Tyler though- the nature in which they banned Naniwa is sketchy as hell. I have no problems with them actually banning a player but it's the vague rule and punishment that they used to do so that bothers me.
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Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument?
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anyone done with the vod yet (if that's even possible :D) and can link a short summary when what happened? (timeline i mean)
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On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument?
are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush?
What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked?
What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked.
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On December 15 2011 06:15 Doomgiver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument? are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush? What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked? What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked.
Thank you! This is my point entirely.
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On December 15 2011 06:15 Doomgiver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument? are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush? What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked? What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked.
No he wouldn't. Because the guys that make and use the rules are not retarded and therefore actually see the GIANT diffrences between a 6 pool or a manner Mule/CC whatever... Or a Mothership rush... Or a Cannonrush.. Or a Proxigate..and what naniwa did.
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On December 15 2011 05:32 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:18 mcc wrote:On December 15 2011 04:38 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:16 labbe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:37 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 15 2011 02:47 Whitewing wrote:On December 15 2011 02:44 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 15 2011 02:28 Condor Hero wrote:On December 15 2011 02:25 -Archangel- wrote:On December 15 2011 02:19 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
i lost three respect points for gomtv for kicking naniwa except they didn't kick him but only didn't choose him for Code S spot. No he actually earned that spot. yep he earned it from MLG Providence, getting 2nd to Leenock who was already in Code S. if gomtv doesn't agree with that, then they need to take it up with MLG and there are much more serious problems afoot. anyway, the reason they lost respect is because they're doing something that isn't optimal for anyone or anything. as far as i can tell, the only explanation for this move is that they've made it personal with naniwa and they just want to hurt him. and unlike naniwa, who made a bad decision when in a situation where it's very difficult to think clearly and have a good perspective, gomtv folks actually took their time responding to this incident, so that they could think perfectly clearly about it and consult people and get a good perspective and make the best move possible. and yet they still do something that's more destructive than constructive, same as naniwa. and i think that falling back on cultural differences is just insulting their critical thinking ability and their competence as international businessmen. that is, if they were competent at their jobs and were able to think like intelligent adults, they would not do non-optimal things for cultural reasons. They're doing it for business reasons. They need to send the message that it's not okay to do things like this, so this punishment accomplishes that. It tells the viewers "this is a serious competition, every match, and we want to keep it that way so you get value for your money." Whether it's a good business decision is another question, but I seriously doubt they are doing it to be vindictive towards Naniwa. i dont know what punishing naniwa by revoking the code S spot he earned accomplishes that couldn't be accomplished in any other way. i have already discussed this issue with a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people and one of the points that is pretty much universally agreed upon is that the organization running the competition is in the best position to prevent this from happening. they prevent it from happening by removing any possibility for inconsequential games and by making sure players know in advance that they will be required to try their hardest in every match in order to participate in their event. the most effective way of preventing it is certainly not making an example out of the guy who did it ignorantly. no one has ever suggested that. gomtv decides to act on a very vague rule with a very severe punishment, why? naniwa's offense was not clearly defined going into the tournament and there was no hint at what the punishment would be at all. i can't read the original korean, so i can't speak with complete confidence, but it seems to me like the application of the rule they cite is quite a stretch based on the translation. and they just make up a punishment when someone breaks it. they're very far removed from proper and effective use of a system of rules and penalties. they certainly were not compelled by their own rules to do what they did. so using this rule is an excuse to punish him. what this move accomplishes business-wise is to make everyone working with them fear them. if you do anything that they don't expect, anything that they weren't clear on or didn't bring up at all, and it works against them, then you should expect a very severe response from them. even if they set you up to do something that's bad for them, they'll still not say anything beforehand and if you go ahead and do something that's bad for them, they retaliate harshly. imo the standard good business philosophy is to cover your ass as much as possible. and when a business fails to do so, it minimizes damages and learns and fixes the problem for the future. if you are the big kid on the block and you wanna be a bully, then yeah you can be careless and when something goes wrong, don't admit fault and then slap the other guy down and make everyone hate him. if they really think that's optimal, then i'll admit that i don't know everything they know about their own business, so i can't press that too hard. all i can say is it's very improbable that that is optimal. and even if it is optimal for their own business, it's not optimal for the industry. so even if you do want to shield them with "they're just doing what they think is best for their business" i still lose 3 respect points for them. if they owned up to their mistake and stood by naniwa, then i think this is a situation where it's quite possible to use propaganda (not in an evil deceptive way, but legitimate propaganda to get the masses to understand your decision and agree with it) to make themselves look good, make naniwa look good (which they want because he's in their league and he's one of the few foreigners, extra valuable to them) and make their league look stronger than ever heading into the new year. but no, they're apparently incapable of that (either because of incompetence or emotions). edit: apparently the conduct rule wasnt used in the official explanation. if that's true, then it's even worse. they went from having a rule that, when stretched, barely is reasonable, to having no rule and just a spontaneous penalty. Thank you! It's nice to see some intelligent posts every once in a while. If "doing anything they don't expect" means stuff like throwing a game in the most obvious way possible i'm fully supporting them inflicting fear into the players. seriously, what is so hard to understand about this or why can you even argue about this action not being smart? What happened? A professional gamer lost an aired game because he did not feel like playing "serious" because he dropped out of the tournament... Oh wait, it's actually WAY worse, he did not just "not play serious", he did drop the game on purpose. He even made it in a way that it was obvious to absolutely everyone by taking his hand of the keyboard and using a "strategy" with a 100% loss-chance. There is like nothing worse he could have done. Not joining the game would have been better. Faking a heart attack during the game would have been better. But what he did was like the worst possible "answer" to not wanting to play a game that did not matter. He got punished for dropping a game. It does not even matter if the game had a purpose. Dropping a game in the way he did is just the worst thing a progamer can do. You want professional Esports? Then act professional. Are you actually that dense and immoral that you think that faking a heart attack is better than what he did ? You know that faking a heart attack would actually cause real harm compared to throwing a meaningless game in entertainment industry that has no real societal implications apart Koreans and some other people being "offended" ? Why is dropping a game like he did the worst thing he could do ? I would expect clearly dropping a game to be much better than dropping a game "unclearly" as it makes it much clearer for the purpose of preventing the whole "Savior"-like scenarios. Of course the best solution would be to forfeit it upfront, but he did something that was closest possible to forfeiting. People that say it would be better if he played 4-gate/2-gate or whatever seem to not see how much worse it is as it can actually be considered regular game and therefore introduces uncertainty. This way at least everything is quite transparent, except GOM.tvs reaction. The proper way to protest against useless matches like this is to play it out and contact your manager / tournament organizers afterwards and tell them this doesn't fly. It's not the proper way to make mockery of the audience, your opponent and the tournament. Banning him from Code S is too harsh, but some punishment was totally called for. When your game is aired and at that level, you are part player part showman and you owe it to the event and audience to keep up appearances. For most matches this is "invisible" as audience is there to watch 2 top players duking it out and that's np for games where results matter.
Oh I am not saying that there were no better ways to go about it in general. But what he did was far from the worse he could do. I saw much worse in professional sports. But my point was that if he was dead set or unable to play a serious game this was pretty close to the best way to go about it, just behind forfeiting and refusing to play.
I have no real opinion if the punishment was called for as I do not pretend to actually know the real situation, as only very few people actually know what really happened and I do not trust GOM and I trust Naniwa only slightly. From what could be seen on stream and their rules I think there was no basis for punishment, but there might have been something happening behind the scenes.
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On December 15 2011 06:15 Doomgiver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument? are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush? What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked? What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked.
This arguement has no value due to the fact that Naniwa said he did it because he didnt want to play the game, (as far as I know).
It's not like there is the possibility that it was intended as a cheese. It simply wasn't.
If I kill someone and noone knows that I did it, then I'm not guilty by law. If I tell it, I am. That's the difference.
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Please, bring examples of "worse" stuff... That did not get punished severe... I'm REALLY interested what is worse than doing the contrary of what your paid for...
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On December 15 2011 06:17 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:15 Doomgiver wrote:On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument? are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush? What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked? What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked. No he wouldn't. Because the guys that make and use the rules are not retarded and therefore actually see the GIANT diffrences between a 6 pool or a manner Mule/CC whatever... Or a Mothership rush... Or a Cannonrush.. Or a Proxigate..and what naniwa did.
Yes and there are limits to the interpretations. Peeing would actually break their abuse rule that they supposedly cited for punishing Naniwa. Probe rush would need such a stretch to include that, that it is far into unreasonable interpretation.
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It's not about probe rushing. It's about obviously dropping a game which ii could call "pissing all over the tournament, the fans and everyone else involved"  .
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Does anyone have a link to the pro photo topic day9 mentioned?
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On December 15 2011 06:28 Velr wrote:It's not about probe rushing. It's about obviously dropping a game which ii could call "pissing all over the tournament, the fans and everyone else involved" .
Yet no one gave a shit when Idra forfeited a game in IPL3 group play.
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On December 15 2011 06:26 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:17 Velr wrote:On December 15 2011 06:15 Doomgiver wrote:On December 15 2011 06:00 Longshank wrote:
Tournament rules never cover every possible scenario. By Tyler's logic they shouldn't be able to revoke the invite had he peed on the floor since their rules does not cover it. The could have pressed charges and have him pay up but they could not kick him out of the league.
Do I have to explain why this is a fucked up argument? are you seriously comparing someone peeing in the floor to a probe rush? What about someone 6 pooling, should he get kicked? What about when someone does a "manner mule", its a disrespect for the opponent, he should be kicked. No he wouldn't. Because the guys that make and use the rules are not retarded and therefore actually see the GIANT diffrences between a 6 pool or a manner Mule/CC whatever... Or a Mothership rush... Or a Cannonrush.. Or a Proxigate..and what naniwa did. Yes and there are limits to the interpretations. Peeing would actually break their abuse rule that they supposedly cited for punishing Naniwa. Probe rush would need such a stretch to include that, that it is far into unreasonable interpretation.
That would be up for interpretation, perhaps he really had to go.
Point is, no tournament rules covers every scenario.
edit: also, this isn't about a drone rush but throwing a game and in such demonstrative and childish manner.
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On December 15 2011 06:29 svefnleysi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:28 Velr wrote:It's not about probe rushing. It's about obviously dropping a game which ii could call "pissing all over the tournament, the fans and everyone else involved" . Yet no one gave a shit when Idra forfeited a game in IPL3 group play.
Forfeit and trolling/wasting time are different.
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On December 15 2011 06:29 svefnleysi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:28 Velr wrote:It's not about probe rushing. It's about obviously dropping a game which ii could call "pissing all over the tournament, the fans and everyone else involved" . Yet no one gave a shit when Idra forfeited a game in IPL3 group play.
Which is IPL to blame for.
It's not GOM's fault when other tournaments don't enact their rules.
Oh and forfeiting is not the same as actually playing but losin gon purpose.
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Abuse of Power, GOMtv should be ignored by the foreign community... we don't want corrupt communism into eSport, for God's sake.
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EPT
