On September 22 2011 23:00 Grumbels wrote: IPL has things like that, a combination of various lengthy qualifications, offline qualifiers, live tournaments all with seasons that are months apart. It doesn't work too well, since nobody understands the system and when they are airing what, but it could work well for GSL in theory maybe.
It feels like IGN is airing random games all over the place. You never know whats up next, you don't know what qualifiers there are, which ones are currently live and wheter its the fiftieth rebroadcast. The games are not live and nobody knows when they were actually played. I also couldnt find a decent bracket for all the qualifiers...
So many things that hurt the excitement and have really made me lose interest in IGN. I'm probably gonna watch the main event but that's about it.
Agree.
The airing of the qualifier is horrible... I doubt that anyone that is not really putting a lot of effort into it can follow what exactly they show and why they show it at this point in time... It's just one big mess.
On September 22 2011 01:49 Tanith wrote: The thing that's annoying is they jokingly trash the EU, fine who cares, but when people get annoyed about it and reply on here they get called whiners. These people don't have any other platform in which to discuss there annoyances, its hardly fair to bash something on a show like sotg when the people you are bashing have no way in which to retaliate other than a forum post.
Also you said in the show that the majority of listeners are from the US, by what margin as i bet its close, in all honesty i thought the reverse would of been true... however i could be and probably am completely wrong. Anyway, I love the show just drop the EU bashing it stopped being funny months ago.
well said!
agree ^^ and nicely put. Also most people that tune in live are probabily American because of the hours it is broadcast. Its the early hours of the morning here. Most Europeans will watch the vods i'd guess.
On September 22 2011 01:49 Tanith wrote: The thing that's annoying is they jokingly trash the EU, fine who cares, but when people get annoyed about it and reply on here they get called whiners. These people don't have any other platform in which to discuss there annoyances, its hardly fair to bash something on a show like sotg when the people you are bashing have no way in which to retaliate other than a forum post.
Also you said in the show that the majority of listeners are from the US, by what margin as i bet its close, in all honesty i thought the reverse would of been true... however i could be and probably am completely wrong. Anyway, I love the show just drop the EU bashing it stopped being funny months ago.
well said!
agree ^^ and nicely put. Also most people that tune in live are probabily American because of the hours it is broadcast. Its the early hours of the morning here. Most Europeans will watch the vods i'd guess.
Completely agree, it was fun some months ago ^^ Love the show but that's embarresing.
On September 22 2011 04:09 tree.hugger wrote: Just watched the episode, and I really loved the end. The BW talk really came flooding out, it seemed almost a relief for all of them to talk about it. I caught only the brief tail end of BW without Sc2, but I understand what they mean, and it was great to hear.
I don't think they really took the EU comments seriously though, which is a little sad. It's not about watching every random weekly cup, but just looking over Mikilatov's awesome tournament round-ups would really give them a good idea of which players to find some replays of, and which players to watch once in a while. Tyler was very conciliatory about LucifroN, he was absolutely right, Luci got rolled, but he was gracious enough to admit that it probably wasn't his best play. And it's completely true, LucifroN's current form is amazing. Stephano, Nerchio, and the others too. Just knowing who's been tearing through the weekly cups would be an asset for the show, I think.
they have absouletly no idea who lucifron is. the plays for 4 weeks a year and in the meantime he doesnt even touch sc2 and concentrates on studying. so this time, he came and raped everyone again. 2 weeks before dreamhack, he continued his study and didnt focus on the game too much again - ofc he practices because of his invite, but its just not the same.
He is simply one of the greatest talents there is on this planet, if they knew anythin gabout wc3 or him as a person they would know that. They judge from 2 maps they saw form this guy vs motherfuckin DRG - how fair is that?
Super fair, seeing as the question was whether or not he would win versus DRG. And another thing, his raw talent doesn't matter in the least. ToD, Moon, and Grubby have been playing SC2 for a while now, and they have not reached their full potential. I have no doubt that they will be great in SC2 over time and as they focus more exclusively on the game. But Moon and Grubby have been playing WC3 on the side with SC2 and that just isn't enough of a focus to be competitive at the very top level (I don't know about ToD). Yes, Moon did really well at DreamHack, but pretty much only DreamHack. He fell out of Code A, and lost to Slush and Naniwa during the group stages of MLG Columbus. Considering his potential, he should have done better. But he hasn't been focusing enough on SC2.
The fact is that as you say Lucifron hasn't been playing enough SC2. That is all that matters when considering he has to play DRG in his best match up. The question that SOTG was talking about was Lucifron's chances against DRG, which they honestly said was pretty low. Then a bunch of Lucifron fans accused SOTG of not knowing European players and how Lucifron beat Nerchio in a small tournament, so of course he would beat DRG. It was completely ridiculous.
The issue was never about potential, and it was never about whether or not Lucifron was a good player. The issue was whether or not Lucifron could take down DRG. The answer was and still is clear.
On September 22 2011 23:00 Grumbels wrote: IPL has things like that, a combination of various lengthy qualifications, offline qualifiers, live tournaments all with seasons that are months apart. It doesn't work too well, since nobody understands the system and when they are airing what, but it could work well for GSL in theory maybe.
It feels like IGN is airing random games all over the place. You never know whats up next, you don't know what qualifiers there are, which ones are currently live and wheter its the fiftieth rebroadcast. The games are not live and nobody knows when they were actually played. I also couldnt find a decent bracket for all the qualifiers...
So many things that hurt the excitement and have really made me lose interest in IGN. I'm probably gonna watch the main event but that's about it.
Agree.
The airing of the qualifier is horrible... I doubt that anyone that is not really putting a lot of effort into it can follow what exactly they show and why they show it at this point in time... It's just one big mess.
This. I think many of the tour organisations doesn't relaly understand the consumer / the viewers.
If they want to reach a high amount of viewers they need to make a format that everybody understands and make every game feel extremely important. MLG is able to do that. Every weekend there is a mlg i feel like i have to watch every game, because every game is so important and the casters are doing a great job of hyping it up. TSL was one of the online tournaments that was so able to produce the same hype, though it definitely is easier for TL to advertise than IGN.
NASL is another tournament that imo is a failure, and though they are doing a decent job of advertising, everyu game feels kinda unimoprtant. IMO the seasons are just way too long. GSL probably has a better formot, as each group is played in 1 day which imo makes the games more interesting. But I can agree with the fact that there simply may be too many GSL's, which makes each season seem less important. But im not sure if there is any simple solutions to this. Making each season longer or less games played / day (like only playing 1 group being played in 1 day instead of 2), could perhaps be an idea.
From the perspetive of IGN, they should imo try to make a few changes: 1) They need to be better at hyping up the tournament. The Gordon Hayword (or whatever his name was) vidoe was a decent idea, but there needs to be more. MLG has state of the game as an important factor contributor. Could IGN perhaps create something similar (?). 2) They must make more the formot more clear to the public. Even though i read TL every day I have no idea when the tournament will begin. I have no idea how many qualifiers there are (when they are being played), and all the rebroadcasts and this arena thing confuses me. At least NASL makes it very clear that games are being played 02:30 cet and there is a EU rebroadcast at 18:30 CET. Simply put: IGN has to be much better at communication to thei viewers. They should probably try create a feedback-system in which it is easy for viewers to express their opinions about ign, and ign could then work on possible solutions.
^ A better example of games in a tournament feeling important would be TSL. Everything had appropriate hype and you can easily find the times of every match. There should at most be only 1 rebroadcast (not even necessary for TSL since VODs are uploaded to youtube so timely).
MLG the first couple of days are exciting because you have good players but I don't feel like they are too important since no one can be knocked out of groups anyways.
just watched episode 50. i think artosis needed to stop defending against the points that incontrol raised because they were pretty much spot-on. GSL is supposed to be the most prestigious SC2 tourney but it's overly saturated and not much of a big deal. GOM has to change their format. :s
On September 25 2011 12:27 konadora wrote: just watched episode 50. i think artosis needed to stop defending against the points that incontrol raised because they were pretty much spot-on. GSL is supposed to be the most prestigious SC2 tourney but it's overly saturated and not much of a big deal. GOM has to change their format. :s
Maybe in your opinion. There can never be enough gsl for me, so I'm going to say you're wrong.
On September 25 2011 12:27 konadora wrote: just watched episode 50. i think artosis needed to stop defending against the points that incontrol raised because they were pretty much spot-on. GSL is supposed to be the most prestigious SC2 tourney but it's overly saturated and not much of a big deal. GOM has to change their format. :s
the problem is, its the highest quality games, if gsl isnt on every week where can you go if you want to see the best players play? for some people its really important to see the best people, until we have some kind of korean sc2 league, a lot of people dont want a cup style tourney from gom
On September 25 2011 12:27 konadora wrote: just watched episode 50. i think artosis needed to stop defending against the points that incontrol raised because they were pretty much spot-on. GSL is supposed to be the most prestigious SC2 tourney but it's overly saturated and not much of a big deal. GOM has to change their format. :s
the problem is, its the highest quality games, if gsl isnt on every week where can you go if you want to see the best players play? for some people its really important to see the best people, until we have some kind of korean sc2 league, a lot of people dont want a cup style tourney from gom
The solution seems pretty obvious then.
Make the GSL an actual league, and then make an even bigger tournament which you qualify for through the GSL, and that would be the one that matters.
As someone who doesn't have a BW perspective on titles, I want all the GSL I can get. It's my favorite league/tourney by far.
I think they need to tweak the group selection format, which I posted about, and the one other thing I'd like to see change is to separate the GSTL season from the GSL season.
What they could do in the future is maybe have 4 major GSL super tourneys, or something that stand above the regular tourneys. Or one major championship tourney at the end of every year. But I still want my regular fix of GSL.
On September 25 2011 19:42 ShadeR wrote: I don't know whats going on in SC2 scene but why doesn't GSTL fill the void in between individual leagues as proleague in BW does?
Because there never really is a void between those leagues. Individual leagues happen every month and gstl also happens during the same time, only difference is that gstl now takes 3 months each season. From what I understand the only reason why people can actually make a living playing sc2 in korea is gsl because a lot of these guys can actually live of of getting atleast ro32 in code s each month. Gotta wait for bw to be as dead in korea as it is in the rest of the world till big sponsorships switch over and we can actually have what you described: Around 6 individual tournaments a year that actually mean something and team league in between.
On September 25 2011 19:42 ShadeR wrote: I don't know whats going on in SC2 scene but why doesn't GSTL fill the void in between individual leagues as proleague in BW does?
Because there never really is a void between those leagues. Individual leagues happen every month and gstl also happens during the same time, only difference is that gstl now takes 3 months each season. From what I understand the only reason why people can actually make a living playing sc2 in korea is gsl because a lot of these guys can actually live of of getting atleast ro32 in code s each month. Gotta wait for bw to be as dead in korea as it is in the rest of the world till big sponsorships switch over and we can actually have what you described: Around 6 individual tournaments a year that actually mean something and team league in between.
You misunderstand me. It seemed that many peoples main complaint with making GSL a thrice yearly league was that they liked watching GSL every month and without GSL once a month there would a "void" that needed filling.
On September 22 2011 01:49 Tanith wrote: The thing that's annoying is they jokingly trash the EU, fine who cares, but when people get annoyed about it and reply on here they get called whiners. These people don't have any other platform in which to discuss there annoyances, its hardly fair to bash something on a show like sotg when the people you are bashing have no way in which to retaliate other than a forum post.
Also you said in the show that the majority of listeners are from the US, by what margin as i bet its close, in all honesty i thought the reverse would of been true... however i could be and probably am completely wrong. Anyway, I love the show just drop the EU bashing it stopped being funny months ago.
The important detail is that they weren't bashing the EU in any way. They were taking the michael out of the people in this thread who were going on about an imaginary NA bias.
Just watched the episode, and I really loved the end. The BW talk really came flooding out, it seemed almost a relief for all of them to talk about it. I caught only the brief tail end of BW without Sc2, but I understand what they mean, and it was great to hear.
I don't think they really took the EU comments seriously though, which is a little sad. It's not about watching every random weekly cup, but just looking over Mikilatov's awesome tournament round-ups would really give them a good idea of which players to find some replays of, and which players to watch once in a while. Tyler was very conciliatory about LucifroN, he was absolutely right, Luci got rolled, but he was gracious enough to admit that it probably wasn't his best play. And it's completely true, LucifroN's current form is amazing. Stephano, Nerchio, and the others too. Just knowing who's been tearing through the weekly cups would be an asset for the show, I think.
they have absouletly no idea who lucifron is. the plays for 4 weeks a year and in the meantime he doesnt even touch sc2 and concentrates on studying. so this time, he came and raped everyone again. 2 weeks before dreamhack, he continued his study and didnt focus on the game too much again - ofc he practices because of his invite, but its just not the same.
He is simply one of the greatest talents there is on this planet, if they knew anythin gabout wc3 or him as a person they would know that. They judge from 2 maps they saw form this guy vs motherfuckin DRG - how fair is that?
Super fair, seeing as the question was whether or not he would win versus DRG. And another thing, his raw talent doesn't matter in the least. ToD, Moon, and Grubby have been playing SC2 for a while now, and they have not reached their full potential. I have no doubt that they will be great in SC2 over time and as they focus more exclusively on the game. But Moon and Grubby have been playing WC3 on the side with SC2 and that just isn't enough of a focus to be competitive at the very top level (I don't know about ToD). Yes, Moon did really well at DreamHack, but pretty much only DreamHack. He fell out of Code A, and lost to Slush and Naniwa during the group stages of MLG Columbus. Considering his potential, he should have done better. But he hasn't been focusing enough on SC2.
The fact is that as you say Lucifron hasn't been playing enough SC2. That is all that matters when considering he has to play DRG in his best match up. The question that SOTG was talking about was Lucifron's chances against DRG, which they honestly said was pretty low. Then a bunch of Lucifron fans accused SOTG of not knowing European players and how Lucifron beat Nerchio in a small tournament, so of course he would beat DRG. It was completely ridiculous.
The issue was never about potential, and it was never about whether or not Lucifron was a good player. The issue was whether or not Lucifron could take down DRG. The answer was and still is clear.
Plus I feel I need to point out again that iNcontroL did say that Lucrifron had been 'beating every terran in Europe' coming up to Dreamhack. I mean...what else do people want? He knew who he was, knew his reputation, knew of his results.
On September 25 2011 12:27 konadora wrote: just watched episode 50. i think artosis needed to stop defending against the points that incontrol raised because they were pretty much spot-on. GSL is supposed to be the most prestigious SC2 tourney but it's overly saturated and not much of a big deal. GOM has to change their format. :s
to be fair to artosis: it's hard not to be a little biased to the company you work for; and i'm sure there are plenty o people who are satisfied with the GSL format because they haven't watched anything else (Korean).
On September 25 2011 19:42 ShadeR wrote: I don't know whats going on in SC2 scene but why doesn't GSTL fill the void in between individual leagues as proleague in BW does?
Because there never really is a void between those leagues. Individual leagues happen every month and gstl also happens during the same time, only difference is that gstl now takes 3 months each season. From what I understand the only reason why people can actually make a living playing sc2 in korea is gsl because a lot of these guys can actually live of of getting atleast ro32 in code s each month. Gotta wait for bw to be as dead in korea as it is in the rest of the world till big sponsorships switch over and we can actually have what you described: Around 6 individual tournaments a year that actually mean something and team league in between.
You misunderstand me. It seemed that many peoples main complaint with making GSL a thrice yearly league was that they liked watching GSL every month and without GSL once a month there would a "void" that needed filling.
Oh I see, well my point that sc2 in korea wouldn't be selfsubstainable without monthly gsls still remains. As I see it BW needs to die and big (KOREAN) sponsors need to start supporting sc2 teams so players can actually make a living only playing in a few individual leages per year. But yeah I do agree I'd really like to see less individual leagues per year and team leagues inbetween. That would actually make me buy a team league pass, because right now I don't even have the time to watch all of each gsl.
On September 25 2011 19:42 ShadeR wrote: I don't know whats going on in SC2 scene but why doesn't GSTL fill the void in between individual leagues as proleague in BW does?
Because there never really is a void between those leagues. Individual leagues happen every month and gstl also happens during the same time, only difference is that gstl now takes 3 months each season. From what I understand the only reason why people can actually make a living playing sc2 in korea is gsl because a lot of these guys can actually live of of getting atleast ro32 in code s each month. Gotta wait for bw to be as dead in korea as it is in the rest of the world till big sponsorships switch over and we can actually have what you described: Around 6 individual tournaments a year that actually mean something and team league in between.
You misunderstand me. It seemed that many peoples main complaint with making GSL a thrice yearly league was that they liked watching GSL every month and without GSL once a month there would a "void" that needed filling.
Oh I see, well my point that sc2 in korea wouldn't be selfsubstainable without monthly gsls still remains. As I see it BW needs to die and big (KOREAN) sponsors need to start supporting sc2 teams so players can actually make a living only playing in a few individual leages per year. But yeah I do agree I'd really like to see less individual leagues per year and team leagues inbetween. That would actually make me buy a team league pass, because right now I don't even have the time to watch all of each gsl.
Yes that was the case that Artosis was making and i agree to a degree that SC2 does not have the capability to 'go BW'. ... I ignored your last bit about BW needing to die but you just keep going at it...but hey this is SC2 forums i should have known better.
EPT
