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8751 Posts
On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did.
Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening.
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I've been doing some brainstorming about what could be done to improve the WP and one of the solutions that seemed workable was buffing the shields, but make the warp mode drain them to 0, so you can't just bum rush into enemy territory and laugh while warping in stuff. I suppose the biggest indirect nerf to some WP shenanigans was changing the colossus attack so it does damage after the animation finishes, so you couldn't do any stutter steps with them (why was that actually changed? )
I could see it being used in all these new PvT heavy zealot/archon/HT strategies, where the T doesn't want to get vikings until you get colossi, because your ball usually dies to too much EMP. Once you EMP only single HT, it suddenly starts being a lot less effective, so somebody with better mechanics than mine could definitely use it to drop HTs after the initial EMPS were fired.
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On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening.
Yep I agree completely. Drops are mainly used for econ harass, trying to kill a ton of workers in a short amount of time. Zealots are too slow and stalkers don't have the dps to be able to do that. The most viable units for econ harass as protoss are DTs and HTs. In the DT case the "drop" is unnecessary and the risk vs. benefit of using more than 1-2 DTs in the same location is not worth it since one overlord or scan would kill everything there. Storm drops work but as Tyler pointed out the investment is huge, 600 gas flying into enemy territory with air units almost definitely on the map by that point for T and Z. I think that is the main reason we really only see storm drops super late game with the P player maxed and accumulating resources.
Lastly, early game warp prism harass is problematic because if we conclude DTs and HTs are the best units to use for it that recquires two different tech paths, robo and templar tech. Investing that much early, on a hit or miss harass is essentially a gimmicky all-in.
I also want to add I think the dual-purposes of the warp-prism are conceptually at odds. Drops allow you to get units somewhere far from your base; so does warp in. If used together it is a large commitment of resources and in early or mid-game would probably be an all in (take the drop two immortals and warp in zealots for example). The medivac on the other hand drops and then bolsters the strength of the drop by healing it, no more resources are required to increase the drops strength.
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On July 22 2011 00:44 MCDayC wrote:
I have an idea. As long as EG would be okay with it, they should get DeMuslim on the show. He has said that he would be interested in doing it. He is in America so he would be fine timewise. He actually knows something about the european scene, including WC3. Honestly, I actually like the new people, but a problem that has annoyed me forever has been how little they know about European players. DeMuslim would change this. I think he would be an awesome addition.
HIs Homestory cup commentating and his shows with Rotterdam were both awesome. Would love to see DeMuslim on SotG for a guest appearance or two.
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On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening.
but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too.
and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o
as far as i know the difference between a medivac is 10 hp and 1 armor for a more expensive unit. combine that with the fact that the prism itself is gasless means that the risk vs reward can be just as good for protoss as terran. sure you need to find better situations to make a drop pay off as much as 4 marauders can, but in the same token the investment is so much less.
you also have the ability to pick the units you want in a drop once you get there. find a zerg base with no high ground vision, warp in some HTs and storm them soon.
the list goes on for why warp prisms are a fine unit so i find the idea that they need buffs odd. maybe its just a case of the community needing more time to experiment or a top tier player to make them 'famous' for us to see them more often, a unit doesnt have to be bad for it to not get used.
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Warp prisms are fine for the most part, it's just that there isn't really a unit that synergizes well with them, as other people have said. There's no shuttle/reaver combo for Protoss in SC2; or at least we haven't figured out some baller combo yet.
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On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening.
Unfortunately, Blizzard kind of stabbed themselves in the foot when they made the colossus. Not only did it 'overlap' with the reaver, but the late game splash damage potential would just be too insane. I've seen zealots with charge do fairly well out of the warp prism, and have actually seen Minigun use them to good use with high templars off 2-base in his first round IPL games, double-prong attacking. That's the thing, I think: you have to really have a plan when using them, they're not too great off the cuff.
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JP, any chance we can see the full video? You just uploaded 2 hours of 3 and a half hours....
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I've seen Gatored use a Warp Prism to great affect for battle positioning against Rainbow in order to break a contain.
If I recall correctly, he used it to flank Siege Tanks from behind with Warpgate units(mostly Zealots which he also had loaded into the WP), while his main army moved in for the pincer.
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On July 22 2011 08:04 RogerChillingworth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. Unfortunately, Blizzard kind of stabbed themselves in the foot when they made the colossus. Not only did it 'overlap' with the reaver, but the late game splash damage potential would just be too insane. I've seen zealots with charge do fairly well out of the warp prism, and have actually seen Minigun use them to good use with high templars off 2-base in his first round IPL games, double-prong attacking. That's the thing, I think: you have to really have a plan when using them, they're not too great off the cuff.
I saw that game with Minigun and it was cool as hell (like Bisu vs hyvaa after he came back from his most recent hiatus) where he dropped zealots in the main and forced SCVs to the natural then stormed them.
Even if someone does it perfectly its still a huge investment (400 minerals and robo time at least) for no potential benefit to your main army.
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On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o as far as i know the difference between a medivac is 10 hp and 1 armor for a more expensive unit. combine that with the fact that the prism itself is gasless means that the risk vs reward can be just as good for protoss as terran. sure you need to find better situations to make a drop pay off as much as 4 marauders can, but in the same token the investment is so much less. you also have the ability to pick the units you want in a drop once you get there. find a zerg base with no high ground vision, warp in some HTs and storm them soon. the list goes on for why warp prisms are a fine unit so i find the idea that they need buffs odd. maybe its just a case of the community needing more time to experiment or a top tier player to make them 'famous' for us to see them more often, a unit doesnt have to be bad for it to not get used.
You seem to be quoting something then making an arguement void of what you quoted. Tyler is saying the problem might not be the warp prizm but what units you can really use it with. A terran drop has MASSIVE potential because of DPS output of stimmed marauders/marines. Marines are the terran mineral sink and thus aren't really THAT costly. Marauders are slightly more expensive but have a greater potential to snipe buildings. Compare that to a protoss army that has no mineral sink that has the same potential for damage. That's the major difference between Terran and Protoss dropping.
Warping in HT would have to be at your base. Warping them in outside your area of control would mean there is a MASSIVE risk attached to it. That's a lot of gas that you have to pray the enemy doesn't see before it's ready to storm. HT drops are also limited in their use. You generally only get one storm per HT. This means you can't continue this aggression constantly by relying on your perfect control to not lose the dropship.
Overall you can't compare the protoss warp prizm to a traditional terran drop. They are fundamentally different because of the differences in the races. In BW protoss had a unit that depending on your control could cause damage. Currently there's no real Protoss unit that has that same potential. So the fundamental idea behind the drop has to be changed since there is no unit to fill that role.
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On July 23 2011 02:13 Numy wrote:
You seem to be quoting something then making an arguement void of what you quoted
this is the difference between an argument and a conversation?
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On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o as far as i know the difference between a medivac is 10 hp and 1 armor for a more expensive unit. combine that with the fact that the prism itself is gasless means that the risk vs reward can be just as good for protoss as terran. sure you need to find better situations to make a drop pay off as much as 4 marauders can, but in the same token the investment is so much less. you also have the ability to pick the units you want in a drop once you get there. find a zerg base with no high ground vision, warp in some HTs and storm them soon. the list goes on for why warp prisms are a fine unit so i find the idea that they need buffs odd. maybe its just a case of the community needing more time to experiment or a top tier player to make them 'famous' for us to see them more often, a unit doesnt have to be bad for it to not get used.
Did you read Tyler's post? The problem is the investment. The only drops that do enough dps are ht's and dt's, and they are expensive so if you lose them it's a huge hit. They are good but risky. Compare that to a marine/maruader drop which is much cheaper and you can have 2-3 of them at once late game.
That being said, if they leave warp prisms the way they are, I think we will still see more of them in the future. White-ra has had some cool warp prism play. But it will definately never be as assential as medivac drops are for terran
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On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o as far as i know the difference between a medivac is 10 hp and 1 armor for a more expensive unit. combine that with the fact that the prism itself is gasless means that the risk vs reward can be just as good for protoss as terran. sure you need to find better situations to make a drop pay off as much as 4 marauders can, but in the same token the investment is so much less. you also have the ability to pick the units you want in a drop once you get there. find a zerg base with no high ground vision, warp in some HTs and storm them soon. the list goes on for why warp prisms are a fine unit so i find the idea that they need buffs odd. maybe its just a case of the community needing more time to experiment or a top tier player to make them 'famous' for us to see them more often, a unit doesnt have to be bad for it to not get used.
The investment isn't less. It is an investment into time. Medivacs are built out of the Starport for Terran, which would most likely either be building those anyways, or building Vikings. Plus, Terrans can viably go Marine in every matchup, so there is serious synergy with the Medivac. The Warp Prism would be built out of the Robo, which makes it expensive for time as it takes time away from building Immortals or Colossus.
Also, MMA was greatly praised at Columbus for his drop play, because he was doing it despite the heavy Muta count. Most terrans stop drops once the Mutas come out. MMA sacrificed drops multiple times against Zergs going Muta because it helped out his army position, and sacrificing Medivacs full of marines is less expensive when you are making medivacs anyway. Sacrificing Warp Prisms that are so expensive on time is not really viable for the Protoss.
And now that High Templars no longer have the energy upgrade, you have to be really lucky to be able to warp in HT without being noticed, and then wait till your energy gets up enough to be able to storm. It makes more sense to warp them in previously, and then just transport them with the Warp Prism.
It isn't really about the unit itself that is the problem, but the fact that drop play does not integrate well into the Protoss tech tree. When Zergs want to drop, all they have to do is research two things, and suddenly they can drop any time they want (Drop and Speed for overlords, the equivalent cost to 3 medivacs) with however many Overlords they want, as they make them anyway for supply. Terrans naturally tech to Medivacs due to Stimpack in their tech tree. If Protoss is going Colossus or Immortal, then it becomes too expensive on time. If they are doing an Archon/Zealot mix, then it is on another part of their tech tree, although slightly more viable if they are only building observers out of the Robo. If they are going Stargate, that is often takes up the whole opening phase (from the Pro games I have seen), and then they can do it after making observers from the Robo. Either way, they still need a Robo at some point that doesn't naturally fit into building strategy. It just seems awkward.
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terrans often make an investment into 2 ports so they can produce vikings and medivacs at the same time, zergs pay for 2 upgrades for their overlords, whats stopping you building a second robo just for warp prisms?
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8751 Posts
On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o
you've totally miscomprehended what i wrote. i've just re-read what i wrote and i'm not sure how to write it any clearer so i'll just say it again in more words. marines and stalkers don't fly. "shooting up" means ground-to-air i guess? im talking about air-to-air. there are usually like 2 mins in a pvt when i can fly around w/ a warp prism without vikings hunting me down. then there are vikings. it's much more common for medivacs and overlords to fly around without phoenix/VR hunting them down. it's a map design issue, too. almost every map has an area near a base where flying units can go but ground units cant. so drop harass can poke in, fly away for 3 seconds, and sit there indefinitely against opponents without flying units that have an air-to-air attack. then, they can drop at any time. pvz and pvt can't do that as well as zvp and tvp
about warping in units: that reduces risk when flying in. you still have to fit those units into your macro plan and be prepared to lose them all. that's much harder. think if terran's only good drop harass unit was the ghost. how often can terrans be willing to lose 2-4 ghosts for nothing? harass is risky by nature and in order to do it without it being all-in, you gotta be ready to lose the units. it's hard for protoss units to be expendable, except zealots and maybe stalkers, which mostly suck at drop harass. warping units in does not reduce risk when flying out, since you still need to pick up the units and leave, but flying out is the much harder part. with observers, protoss should be able to fly in safely. it's about staying around as long as necessary to do decent damage and still getting away. warping in units means you're going to be staying an extra few seconds while units warp in. opponent is watching you do it and getting ready to counter it. if you warp shit in just outside his base, then you may as well have just done it at your own base. the risk isn't flying from your base to a place just outside of his vision... the only way i see warping units in as better is if you get surprised by enough anti-air to insta kill the warp prism. but that comes with some disadvantages.
if you just want to put the warp prism in some odd part of the map to warp units in without intention of carrying them out, then that's not harass. that's just a suicidal attack on a different front. harassment is doing damage and then getting away. warp prism is fine as transportation. and w/ the warp-in mechanic, of course it's actually superior to overlords and medivacs for transporting units. but that's a different role than being a drop harass unit
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On July 23 2011 02:42 turdburgler wrote:
terrans often make an investment into 2 ports so they can produce vikings and medivacs at the same time, zergs pay for 2 upgrades for their overlords, whats stopping you building a second robo just for warp prisms?
Because then the Robo doesn't do anything later. Terrans are using the Starports the whole game, and the upgrades are one time costs, that have no dead weight associated with them. The Robo for the Warp Prism just wouldn't do anything else.
Look if you can't see how the Warp Prism doesn't quite fit into the time investment for Protoss, I can't help you. I am not whining about imbalance, I am just pointing out how it is easier to do drops with other races. Based on the tech trees, it seems easiest for Terran, then for Zerg, lastly Protoss. That is just how the races are made. Some people want to be able to do more drops with Protoss, so they wish for a buff on the Warp Prism. That is just how it is. But don't just reply randomly and tell me "whats stopping you from building warp prisms". Nothing is stopping me, I would just rather not lose while I am doing it.
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On July 23 2011 02:47 flowSthead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:42 turdburgler wrote:
terrans often make an investment into 2 ports so they can produce vikings and medivacs at the same time, zergs pay for 2 upgrades for their overlords, whats stopping you building a second robo just for warp prisms? Because then the Robo doesn't do anything later. Terrans are using the Starports the whole game, and the upgrades are one time costs, that have no dead weight associated with them. The Robo for the Warp Prism just wouldn't do anything else. Look if you can't see how the Warp Prism doesn't quite fit into the time investment for Protoss, I can't help you. I am not whining about imbalance, I am just pointing out how it is easier to do drops with other races. Based on the tech trees, it seems easiest for Terran, then for Zerg, lastly Protoss. That is just how the races are made. Some people want to be able to do more drops with Protoss, so they wish for a buff on the Warp Prism. That is just how it is. But don't just reply randomly and tell me "whats stopping you from building warp prisms". Nothing is stopping me, I would just rather not lose while I am doing it.
well if course it's easier to do drops as other races. the thing is that you can place pylon everywhere on the map and warp in units there. you can say that those pylons are snipeable, but so are drops when they're scouted.
disregarding drops, Zerg only has the nydus worm, which makes a loud sound and is easily killable when it;s scouted, while terran has nothing.
it doesn;t sound really fair if your drop tech is just as easy to get as the other races, while you still have another good way to get a set of units on the other side of the map.
terrans have nothing else besides drop tech, so they get them the easiest, zerg has a nydus worm and creep, so they need 2 upgrades for drops and risk losing a lot of overlords when it;s spotted. protoss has the warp in tech which is fairly reliable with good tactical play. I'm not saying pylons are the protoss way of dropping, but it can fill that role.
and the warp prism allows for adidional units to be warped in the enemy's base asside from the ones it;s carrying.
the warp prism needs fixing, but don't make them easier to get.
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wouldn't it be awesome if the colossus loses its double lasers and gets a charge-up fireball akin to the reaver. Keep the AoE and DPS (damage/second) the same as before, but make the damage more bursty. Can't hurt the game because you can add another dimension of micro against it, and it will also function as a reaver in a warp prism. Obviously nerf/buff/change stuff around to make it all balanced, but I think it will be a much more interesting unit than the lame/boring/uninteresting colossus we have now.
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On July 23 2011 02:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o you've totally miscomprehended what i wrote. i've just re-read what i wrote and i'm not sure how to write it any clearer so i'll just say it again in more words. marines and stalkers don't fly. "shooting up" means ground-to-air i guess? im talking about air-to-air. there are usually like 2 mins in a pvt when i can fly around w/ a warp prism without vikings hunting me down. then there are vikings. it's much more common for medivacs and overlords to fly around without phoenix/VR hunting them down. it's a map design issue, too. almost every map has an area near a base where flying units can go but ground units cant. so drop harass can poke in, fly away for 3 seconds, and sit there indefinitely against opponents without flying units that have an air-to-air attack. then, they can drop at any time. pvz and pvt can't do that as well as zvp and tvp about warping in units: that reduces risk when flying in. you still have to fit those units into your macro plan and be prepared to lose them all. that's much harder. think if terran's only good drop harass unit was the ghost. how often can terrans be willing to lose 2-4 ghosts for nothing? harass is risky by nature and in order to do it without it being all-in, you gotta be ready to lose the units. it's hard for protoss units to be expendable, except zealots and maybe stalkers, which mostly suck at drop harass. warping units in does not reduce risk when flying out, since you still need to pick up the units and leave, but flying out is the much harder part. with observers, protoss should be able to fly in safely. it's about staying around as long as necessary to do decent damage and still getting away. warping in units means you're going to be staying an extra few seconds while units warp in. opponent is watching you do it and getting ready to counter it. if you warp shit in just outside his base, then you may as well have just done it at your own base. the risk isn't flying from your base to a place just outside of his vision... the only way i see warping units in as better is if you get surprised by enough anti-air to insta kill the warp prism. but that comes with some disadvantages. if you just want to put the warp prism in some odd part of the map to warp units in without intention of carrying them out, then that's not harass. that's just a suicidal attack on a different front. harassment is doing damage and then getting away. warp prism is fine as transportation. and w/ the warp-in mechanic, of course it's actually superior to overlords and medivacs for transporting units. but that's a different role than being a drop harass unit
but again most of these points affect all 3 races. protoss's not adding phoenix to their late game armies then getting dropped is their own fault. i dont see how this is even relevent to a warp prism discussion when it seems to come down to, at the end of the day, protoss players being lazy.
if you look at the nasl finals, and replace MCs templar transition with robo tech he gets into the late game with your standard death ball but with a small number of phoenix either in the ball or out and about on the map. i cant see a single reason for this to not become the standard of pvt because with his level of multitasking (which im sure most pro's can match) it seems to be a safe opener vs terran.
even if i concede that protoss has a harder time doing significant damage and then escaping (which i dont) i dont see how that is relevent either. just because you cant harras in the strictest sense of the word doesnt mean you cant use drops to get ahead, and thats what its all about.
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