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On July 23 2011 05:11 mprs wrote:
wouldn't it be awesome if the colossus loses its double lasers and gets a charge-up fireball akin to the reaver. Keep the AoE and DPS (damage/second) the same as before, but make the damage more bursty. Can't hurt the game because you can add another dimension of micro against it, and it will also function as a reaver in a warp prism. Obviously nerf/buff/change stuff around to make it all balanced, but I think it will be a much more interesting unit than the lame/boring/uninteresting colossus we have now.
Making it more burst rather then damage over time buffs the collsus against anything tougher then marines/zerglings as it lets them shoot and scoot much better, that's why you saw Blizzard increase the attack speed / lower the damage to keep the dps the same but lower the damage output of a moving collsus.
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Warp prisms turn units into data, so you'd think they'd be able to carry a lot more.
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On July 23 2011 05:13 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:46 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 07:21 turdburgler wrote:On July 22 2011 05:24 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 22 2011 04:18 Numy wrote:On July 22 2011 04:13 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 01:32 Thrombozyt wrote:On July 22 2011 01:14 Hardigan wrote:On July 22 2011 01:10 -Trippin- wrote:
I watched the episode this week for about half an hour before I was forced to close the tab because it was just too hard to listen to. When I heard Leah suggest that Archons should be armored units instead of massive, it was like someone put a stake through my brain.
Listen, I have nothing against Leah or whatever she does for the community, but she clearly knows almost nothing about the game and it's really hard to listen to, especially when she tries to formulate an opinion about balance. Everyone else on the show, or who has been on the show (for the most part), knows about the game because they are either pros or commentators. Leah is like... a media pundit or something, she brings nothing to the show but a mainstream perspective. That isn't necessary bad, but it's a niche roll... if you get what I mean. The saddest thing wasn't that Leah suggested the archons to be armored (although this is pretty sad), no it was that no one even talked about it. I hoped that Tyler or Artosis would bash this idea to the ground. But there was just nothing. Not even a mimic from anyone. That change would be as bad as increasing warp prism speed/hp. Yeah, I don't really see the huge issue in that regard, I've seen quite a few players utilize warp prisms well enough. They have like 10 less technical health than Medivacs(100 health, 40 shield) and 1 less base armor. They're also just as fast in terms of base speed and have an additional speed upgrade on top of that. Different races, different units, all that stuff, but I don't really see how the warp prism is a piece of shit in comparison to the other races options, maybe I'm missing something. Yea I don't think the warp prizm's problem is the unit itself. I just think Protoss don't really have a unit that that really use the warp prizm's potential. There's just no real unit suited for the kind if harass that reaver shuttle did. Yes exactly. That's a huge part of it. If it helps people, then think of the issue as protoss drop harass, not purely as about the warp prism. If you buff drop harass in any way, obviously warp prisms get more use. But warp prism doesn't have to be buffed. And its stats aren't necessarily the problem. If it stayed as fragile and slow as it currently is, but it could carry much more deadly cargo, then i might be ok with that trade. But as it is, there aren't many protoss unit combos that fit in a warp prism that can do enough damage to risk storing them all in a warp prism while flying around enemy bases. It's also an issue of timing and availability. Yeah, 4 dt's are sick. 4 ht's are sick. They could do a lot of damage. But the times when I can get 4 templar and a warp prism, and be willing to risk that huuuuuuge investment in a 140hp unit that is going deep into enemy territory, are very rare. Let me spend 400 minerals on 8 marines as my cargo. Oh and Z/T very very often have flying units that can attack air, so I can't sit warp prisms in the corner of the map waiting to drop in whenever I feel like it, the way that terran always does to protoss that didn't do a stargate opening. but it has the option to take no cargo and be a proxy pylon where ever you need it, with that in mind it cant be a risk free death dropper too. and i dislike your comments on z/t having units that can shoot up. terrans drop into blink stalker armies and muta playing zergs all the time, and they make it work. the idea that the existance of marines makes dropping too hard for protoss is kinda bullshit tbh ;o you've totally miscomprehended what i wrote. i've just re-read what i wrote and i'm not sure how to write it any clearer so i'll just say it again in more words. marines and stalkers don't fly. "shooting up" means ground-to-air i guess? im talking about air-to-air. there are usually like 2 mins in a pvt when i can fly around w/ a warp prism without vikings hunting me down. then there are vikings. it's much more common for medivacs and overlords to fly around without phoenix/VR hunting them down. it's a map design issue, too. almost every map has an area near a base where flying units can go but ground units cant. so drop harass can poke in, fly away for 3 seconds, and sit there indefinitely against opponents without flying units that have an air-to-air attack. then, they can drop at any time. pvz and pvt can't do that as well as zvp and tvp about warping in units: that reduces risk when flying in. you still have to fit those units into your macro plan and be prepared to lose them all. that's much harder. think if terran's only good drop harass unit was the ghost. how often can terrans be willing to lose 2-4 ghosts for nothing? harass is risky by nature and in order to do it without it being all-in, you gotta be ready to lose the units. it's hard for protoss units to be expendable, except zealots and maybe stalkers, which mostly suck at drop harass. warping units in does not reduce risk when flying out, since you still need to pick up the units and leave, but flying out is the much harder part. with observers, protoss should be able to fly in safely. it's about staying around as long as necessary to do decent damage and still getting away. warping in units means you're going to be staying an extra few seconds while units warp in. opponent is watching you do it and getting ready to counter it. if you warp shit in just outside his base, then you may as well have just done it at your own base. the risk isn't flying from your base to a place just outside of his vision... the only way i see warping units in as better is if you get surprised by enough anti-air to insta kill the warp prism. but that comes with some disadvantages. if you just want to put the warp prism in some odd part of the map to warp units in without intention of carrying them out, then that's not harass. that's just a suicidal attack on a different front. harassment is doing damage and then getting away. warp prism is fine as transportation. and w/ the warp-in mechanic, of course it's actually superior to overlords and medivacs for transporting units. but that's a different role than being a drop harass unit but again most of these points affect all 3 races. protoss's not adding phoenix to their late game armies then getting dropped is their own fault. i dont see how this is even relevent to a warp prism discussion when it seems to come down to, at the end of the day, protoss players being lazy. if you look at the nasl finals, and replace MCs templar transition with robo tech he gets into the late game with your standard death ball but with a small number of phoenix either in the ball or out and about on the map. i cant see a single reason for this to not become the standard of pvt because with his level of multitasking (which im sure most pro's can match) it seems to be a safe opener vs terran. even if i concede that protoss has a harder time doing significant damage and then escaping (which i dont) i dont see how that is relevent either. just because you cant harras in the strictest sense of the word doesnt mean you cant use drops to get ahead, and thats what its all about.
Ignoring the fact that you are saying that Protoss are lazy for not defending drops by building phoenix (if it was really that simple/easy why wouldn't they be doing that?), how do you not concede that Protoss has a harder time doing significant damage, then escaping, when the evidence has been given to you? Where is your counter evidence that Protoss can so easily do significant damage? Tyler's whole point is that if you do some damage to the opponent, but lose 600 gas worth of units (assuming High Templar), you are not really ahead. That makes it relevant.
I will grant you that it is entirely possible that warp prisms are under utilized because Protoss players have not figured out effective ways of using them. But so far you have not really given good reasons for why that is. It is difficult to take you seriously when you ignore examples and numbers with just your opinion.
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On July 23 2011 05:15 TedJustice wrote:
Warp prisms turn units into data, so you'd think they'd be able to carry a lot more.
Protoss always had shit computers. Remember Dragoon pathing? Scarab targeting? Thy are more on the spiritual side you see.
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whats with warpprism speed?you can escape everywhere with it....
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mod edit - private information
How will this effect SOTG?
User was banned for this post.
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^why would you even post that? this isn't screddit.
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Likely fake anyways.
Don't know why the fuck JP would say that
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"i been talking to JP a lot lately and the other day he just blurted out he had a crush on me or something like that" :D
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That is way old news. Search function is your friend 
I'm not sure what would be the best change to the warp prism but I do feel like something could still be done without creating imbalance.
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Yeah, 4 month old post, nice try you troll.
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For the warp prism, just take away 20-30 hp and replace it all with shields imo, so that it can keep coming back for more.
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can't wait for next sotg. There's so much news flowing into esports lately... like the day after the last sotg, it just went nuts
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JP i am such a huge fan of your show. you have given me hope i showing that u dont have to play amazingly to be a part in the community. SOTG is so awesome. but after watching your last show, u need someone who's super talkative and runs over people and rages. if u look on youtube of SOTG highlights, all of them are incontrol ranting about something (white-ra, horses, total biscuit). now that he is gone, u need some1 to replace him. the most recent show without day9 as almost painful to watch.
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On July 23 2011 12:10 ampson wrote:
For the warp prism, just take away 20-30 hp and replace it all with shields imo, so that it can keep coming back for more.
Imo it already is an aweseome unit, but Protoss don't really need them nowadays because they have warp in pylons everywhere anyways. So maybe when people start clearing them from the map a little more, Protoss will start using the "I build units whereever the fuck I want"-Unit. Still lots of things to explore and I don't know if any changes here are neede, but then again, what do I know...
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With all those big news this week it's even worse that there will be no sotg next tuesday. More than that, I'd really like it extended to two times per week. Especially regarding the fact that there is no alternative to it.
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In regards to the blip/mlg thing, how about they release the VODs like a week or two after on blip.tv and release them first on MLG? Then people would still see them on MLG but people could watch on blip if they waited for them to be up.
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JP has been steadily getting more awkward, there are so many cringe moments that are bought about by him.
Needs to be alot smoother
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I still think that what would help the warpprism get more use would be a better acceleration.so that they can get away more easily.
I don´t get why so many people focus on the cost of the drops when in BW Protoss drops were as expensive as in SC2(a shuttle with 2 reavers cost the same as a Colossus and warp prism. Hts were equally expensive, Dts are the only unit which came up in prize but at least in SC2 if your shuttle is caught on route the DT hasn´t been warped in yet)
Hts and Dts can be as good as in BW, the only argument is the Colossus which at least from my experience do kill Probes quite quickly(not as quickly as 2 reavers though).
Well, my point is that i feel that the shuttle needs a much much better acceleration(speed is fine IMO but I wouldn´t mind a little more) but as it is, picking up stuff to run away(or changing to the transport form to run away).
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This week's show has so much potential. I expect 2-3 hours of pure entertainment. Hopefully instead of that random girl there will be someone who actually adds something to the show too. Can't wait to hear Tyler's thoughts on all the recent developments!!!
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EPT
