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Official State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 1047

Forum Index > SC2 General
54608 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 2731 Next
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 21:19:22
May 11 2011 21:18 GMT
#20921
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.
Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
Frozenserpent
Profile Joined September 2007
United States143 Posts
May 11 2011 21:24 GMT
#20922
On May 12 2011 06:13 mordek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 04:18 mcc wrote:
On May 11 2011 20:31 Tschis wrote:
On May 11 2011 20:27 RvB wrote:
On May 11 2011 20:19 goiflin wrote:
On May 11 2011 20:06 turdburgler wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:49 kckkryptonite wrote:
Love the arguments, makes the show more interesting and raw. I don't care so much about who's right, nice to hear real opinions, even if conflicting ones.

...but my god Day9 got destroyed by Grack. He also looked like he was thinkin' "Damnit Nick" when the other Plott jumped back on to say Idra is right, lol. One of my fav eps,


i cant believe there are people this stupid who maintain such a long attention span. noone got destroyed. they were arguing completely different ideas, and if you think the game is figured out enough to make massive imba whaa whaa claims you obviously never heard of brood war


There's no reason to start insulting people for their opinion. Day9 was basically stuck in an infinite loop, when the onus was on him to respond to the question: how does zerg scout, or what all-purpose can zerg build to hold all the different pressure builds that the other two races can put out. Basically, all he could say was that it wasn't productive to whine about imba, and while I agree with him in that extent, that's dodging the questions because he has no answer. Saying you should try something new, without giving any suggestions is silly.


well what idra said was quite vague, not being able to scout early how can day9 respond to that? He has no replays or something he has really nothing to comment on but theorycraft. And basically you can say the weak things for all races and make them seem up while that isn't the case of course.


IdrA was quite specific and you don't need replays to comment on something.

Actually no, Idra was vague a lot. When Day9 said vague I think he meant that you cannot discuss problems of scouting without also mentioning the map and matchup, that was why he was saying that without replay you cannot discuss it. And Idra(and others also I think) did not understand at all the point that Day9 was trying to get across(or was just playing stupid to further his agenda).

And yes they were talking about 3 different things or rather on 3 different levels of abstraction. Most of what Day9 said was on the totally abstract level of game balance in general and the rest was him pointing to Idra that discussing balance(scouting) is not possible in short time and without specific replay/map. On the other hand Idra was talking about "specific" problems on some middle level of abstraction. In my opinion his "specific" examples are only good as catchphrases for identifying problematic areas, but Day9 was correct in that discussing scouting without replay or at least a map is pointless as nothing reasonable can be said.


This was well said. I could understand what Greg was saying and his frustrations but honestly there was no where for that conversation to go. Day tried to point that out but I'm guessing this came across as dismissing the issue. There is no doubt an issue. Whether it's broken or imbalanced is not a discussion that can be fruitful in that situation. Now if Greg wanted to get together with Day and look at replays/maps/specific instances than there is zero doubt in my mind Day would have happily done that. It's what he loves!

When I listened I heard whining, not unjustified or even immature whining. Just whining without the possibility of something that is actually constructive coming out of it. My two cents.


Sure there is constructive discussion to be had from that. If I were in Day9's position, I would say, perhaps the different all-ins from terran don't require a precise response. For example, if I have several queens, maybe that banshee harass won't be particularly effective. Creep spread, queens, spines, and speedlings. All of those are good at defending against blue flame hellions. A spine is very effective against marines.

Now there is a Spanishiwa build that is a rather safe build against most of these things. The issue with it is that it exerts no pressure, so they can probably get relatively ahead in the early game.

But what if it's ok to let them have an advantage in early game?

In Starcraft, there is a trade-off between risk and general strength of a build. Going for extra safe builds means trading for that with some power. The less safe build has a higher general power level. Zerg midgame is where zerg shines. Going for an extra-safe build may leave you at a disadvantage in early game, but perhaps you can recuperate this advantage in midgame, and then you will be even coming into late-game. This can give you a lot more flexibility in dealing with early all-ins, which is the crucial part where zerg can't scout.

But I guess Day9 is hesitant to talk about the details because he doesn't have as much experience in SC2.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
May 11 2011 21:35 GMT
#20923
How dare Day9 do frivolous things like graduate from grad school. Pshaw. I wanted my weekly SOTG fix!

Grats Sean Plott on graduating, whoever that is
Okiesmokie
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada379 Posts
May 11 2011 21:41 GMT
#20924
On May 12 2011 06:18 Mailing wrote:
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.

You do know Day9 played zerg in broodwar, right? They had the same problems with scouting.
tokicheese
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada739 Posts
May 11 2011 21:43 GMT
#20925
I do agree with what Idra was saying but going after day9 was kinda silly tbh. Does he have anything to do with balance at blizz? ofc not, Idra was just wasting his breath. Everyone who has a reasonable level of games under their belt knows that zerg has a problem scouting. The real problem is how do you fix it with out breaking early game zerg.
t༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ށ
ch4ppi
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany802 Posts
May 11 2011 21:47 GMT
#20926
Sad Panda

I need my SotG for my trainrides
I <3 u guys, so take care =
Krimancer
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden150 Posts
May 11 2011 23:01 GMT
#20927
Noes! sotg is my ray of sunshine in this cold dark excuse of a world! Thanks for normally hosting a grand show though.
DARKHYDRA
Profile Joined September 2006
United States303 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 23:16:18
May 11 2011 23:13 GMT
#20928
On May 12 2011 06:41 Okiesmokie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 06:18 Mailing wrote:
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.

You do know Day9 played zerg in broodwar, right? They had the same problems with scouting.


So if scouting didn't change from broodwar to sc2 zerg, what did change in the early game that is cuasing all the problems? Spines? No pre-lair hydras? No pre-lair burrow?
Uhnno
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands288 Posts
May 11 2011 23:18 GMT
#20929
On May 12 2011 08:13 DARKHYDRA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 06:41 Okiesmokie wrote:
On May 12 2011 06:18 Mailing wrote:
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.

You do know Day9 played zerg in broodwar, right? They had the same problems with scouting.


So if scouting didn't change from broodwar to sc2 zerg, what did change in the early game that is cuasing all the problems? Spines? No pre-lair hydras? No pre-lair burrow?


They answered this in the show. More deadly 1base timing pushes and easy all in shenanigans.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-11 23:20:49
May 11 2011 23:18 GMT
#20930
On May 12 2011 08:13 DARKHYDRA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 06:41 Okiesmokie wrote:
On May 12 2011 06:18 Mailing wrote:
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.

You do know Day9 played zerg in broodwar, right? They had the same problems with scouting.


So if scouting didn't change from broodwar to sc2 zerg, what did change in the early game that is cuasing all the problems? Spines? No pre-lair hydras? No pre-lair burrow?


Macro mechanics, MULEs, Spawn Larva, and Chronoboost. They make everything faster. But they don't make scouting any faster. This + the early game builds we are talking about tend to be much more varied than the brood war counterparts.
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
May 12 2011 01:13 GMT
#20931
On May 11 2011 10:03 Zeri wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 11 2011 10:02 The KY wrote:
Well if you're not going to do SOTG...I guess someone else will.

I'm going to need someone who can laugh hysterically for AGES at things other people wouldn't consider overly funny, a sarcastic troll to make faces and call the chat douchebags, we need his girlfriend to call halfway through so they can have a mildly awkward interaction before she asks a prepared question, someone so chill that they automatically demand respect bordering on awe, and lastly we'll need a guest. I suggest some nerd who will be rude about players he dislikes and insists his race is broken, but I doubt Idra will come on so I'll just grab some silver league whiner from the b.net forums, it'll be essentially the same thing.


I see what you did there. subtle though. but I got it... ; )


About as subtle as a fist in the face, but I approve! ^^
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-12 01:19:14
May 12 2011 01:18 GMT
#20932
On May 12 2011 06:41 Okiesmokie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2011 06:18 Mailing wrote:
Because talking to Day9 about it is NOT constructive. He only brought it up because he was asked, it was not his job to convince Day9, someone who isn't even playing right now, about the problems of scouting. All top zergs know about it already.

You do know Day9 played zerg in broodwar, right? They had the same problems with scouting.


This exactly. The problem doesn't lie within the scouting (otherwise sc1 zergs would be crying too). It's the macro mechanics. Get rid of mules, chrono boost, larva inject and this game will go a long way. These small changes create HUGE differences to the game. I realize it's to add a little spice to a new game but it really does hinder the balance of all races.

Hell now that I think about it, just gimme sc1 with good graphics =)
The Notorious Winkles
Apoth
Profile Joined May 2010
England194 Posts
May 12 2011 02:57 GMT
#20933
This thread says SotG in 30 mins, but it's not listed and hasn't been mentioned anywahere else. Anyone know if it's on?
trombonomophonononononononone
susySquark
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1692 Posts
May 12 2011 02:59 GMT
#20934
On May 12 2011 11:57 Apoth wrote:
This thread says SotG in 30 mins, but it's not listed and hasn't been mentioned anywahere else. Anyone know if it's on?

Theres no SOTG this week. The topic post says 30 mins from now, 24 hours ago (yesterday) which is when it normally is, but it was cancelled
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
May 12 2011 03:00 GMT
#20935
It says the next show is 23:30 ago.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
Apoth
Profile Joined May 2010
England194 Posts
May 12 2011 03:00 GMT
#20936
okay, thank you
trombonomophonononononononone
Gnarfle
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden170 Posts
May 12 2011 15:00 GMT
#20937
I demand (or at least ask nicely!) for a double episode next week!

:D
DrunkeN.
Profile Joined September 2010
United States406 Posts
May 12 2011 16:11 GMT
#20938
I'm freaking itching over here. I will have no skin by next week.
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
May 12 2011 16:13 GMT
#20939
On May 13 2011 01:11 DrunkeN. wrote:
I'm freaking itching over here. I will have no skin by next week.


I'm actually shaking, I don't know what to do. Please send help. Hold me.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
May 12 2011 17:08 GMT
#20940
I'd love to hear SC2 progamers talk about the "Elephant in the Room" article that basically calls them all losers.
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