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On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote:
What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
Interesting ! i'll be sure to test this out. But, armor upgrade ? Wouldn't attack be better ?
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You should post some replays of your amazing ZvT performance Kigari, we're all eager to learn.
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Most of the starcraft2 players here I belaive wants equal game. We dont want zerg to be underpowered or to read 10 million threads zergs opening about mech etc. I want all races to be as equal as possible when it comes to the chances of winnig the game.
My only fear is that this attitude zerg players showed recently reminds me my days of WoW. Where everyone was crying over everything and Blizzard on purposely buffed nerfed classes. Do you know for what? To get equal numbers of players on each class. I am just afraid that they will react the same way. Let hope they dont do that
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Kigari's build is just an option of a build i've been using for a long time, FE fast lair is extremely good against terran. i tend to go infestor or mutalisk depending on what i feel needs to be done. but nydus, hydra roach or ling bling are all options out of the opening.
14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool lair as soon as pool finishes, you get the 2nd hatch finished before you would normally get a queen, and so you don't actually fall behind in larva at all even not getting a queen until after you start the lair (get it at your nat). and having lair finished a while before the double hellion or marine tank or marauder hellion or marine marauder attack comes gives you quite a few option in defending against it. and from there you are actually ahead of the terran with only a little damage done to your econ ( i lose on average 2 workers by making spinecrawlers)
I highly reccomend fast expand fast lair as an opening in ZvT
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On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote:
What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
this guy is a progamer
lings!
why didnt i think of that!?
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On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote:
What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
Your a Troll.
... but I'll bite, show us a rep where this works. Must be a diamond player with higher than 500 points. Just wondering how you sneak a nydus into a map awared player's base. What if he opened vikings/banshees? what if he lifts his base and base trades? I don't understand the armour upgrade. What about speed upgrade?
This is a cheese/all-in. There's no teching up afterwards with 'threat' of nydus. He can have 2 workers patrolling perimeter and then grab 3 more off min line and kill ur worm.
Been working on this build since beta. If your nydus is delayed, ur behind in tech (down 300 gas). Btw 4 workers kills a nydus wen it's 50% so no 'hardcore defensive mode' neccessary.
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On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand
- Zerglings
- Lair
- More zerglings (and i mean MASS)
- Armor upgrade / Nydus
If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank...
Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle.
Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up...
What kind of lowbie terran player would scout you going mass zerglings and then proceed to get 2+ tanks? Any reasonable player will mass hellions at that point not to mention getting pre-igniter would be the end of the game for the zerg.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:19 PrinceXizor wrote:
Kigari's build is just an option of a build i've been using for a long time, FE fast lair is extremely good against terran. i tend to go infestor or mutalisk depending on what i feel needs to be done. but nydus, hydra roach or ling bling are all options out of the opening.
14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool lair as soon as pool finishes, you get the 2nd hatch finished before you would normally get a queen, and so you don't actually fall behind in larva at all even not getting a queen until after you start the lair (get it at your nat). and having lair finished a while before the double hellion or marine tank or marauder hellion or marine marauder attack comes gives you quite a few option in defending against it. and from there you are actually ahead of the terran with only a little damage done to your econ ( i lose on average 2 workers by making spinecrawlers)
I highly reccomend fast expand fast lair as an opening in ZvT
Doesn't any hatch-before-pool lose to reapers because of the fact that the reaper will be in your base before the pool even finishes?
Isn't this the whole point that Idra has been making for weeks now about how Zerg has to play 1-base builds? Isn't it accepted that ZvT is reasonable if Z actually gets away with a hatch-first expansion without getting put behind by bunker rush/reapers/etc?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand
You can't 14 expand because terrans can make reapers.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:42 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand You can't 14 expand because terrans can make reapers.
Actually, he said in a previous post that you don't go hatch-before-pool. 
Which is equally absurd because you're not going to get a hatch and pool at 14 supply unless you're stopping drone production somewhere.
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On August 18 2010 13:08 Gyro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote:
What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up... Interesting ! i'll be sure to test this out. But, armor upgrade ? Wouldn't attack be better ?
It depends what your facing. With Protoss for example Zealots kill Zerglings in 3 attacks until they get the +1 weapon upgrade when they 2 shot them. If you get the +1 armor upgrade its back to 3 shots.
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yeah, like any half decent player would let you get up a nydus in his base ..
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On August 18 2010 13:01 shlomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote:
Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ?
- 14 expand Lol, anywhere in mid to high diamond this will result in a bunker rush and you getting owned, or at the very best delayed a lot, which also eventually results in you getting owned. Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately.
No, this one is actually legit. Strange as it might sound, having 2 queens earlier because of a faster second hatch and being able to place a spine crawler earlier is way stronger against a bunker than having a lot of lings which will be obliterated by 1 reaper in a bunker. 14 hatch is pretty underused and I think it's way easier to play against a solid mech terran with good macro using that opening. The speedling expo build vs mech is really difficult as your econ is just so weak.
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Right on thanks for sharing this with everyone that may not know. This is the only way for Blizzard to operate, in my opinion. It makes sense.
Beta was a testing phase, not a game demonstration.
They are perfectly aware of things, and must move more carefully with a Live game. They most certainly will continue to develop the game, for a long time.
It does go without saying that they do not need unbalance to sell expansions. That there is even any need for Bashiok to mention that is a reflection of the state of gaming thanks to consoles with their 5 hours worth of content and zero bug fixes and 'download content paid for'.
But this is PC gaming, and this is Blizzard after all.
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Sweden7973 Posts
On August 18 2010 00:20 SyyRaaaN wrote:
"Our intent is not to have a game with broken balance in an attempt to sell an expansion. That should go without saying. It makes me sad it isn't."
Hehe, blizzards reputation has taken a hit? :D But now when i think about it - we were all screaming for atleast 1 more zerg unit in the beta but we didnt see it ^^. And thats coming in the expansion for sho, which maybe means that they have an awesome zerg unit done, but not implemented? Hum, hum, hum.
On topic - intresting to see what changes they are planning. Will it be a success as SC1, or a total fail as WC3 ?
WC3 was/is not totally fail. You are, sir.
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On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote:
Zerg is UP...under polished.
that.
i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time.
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On August 19 2010 05:21 lindn wrote:that. i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time.
I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one.
I just hope Blizz figures out something.
Edit: I evolved into a hydra >:D
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I will admit that when I played Terran I thought Zerg was fine and everyone was QQing but now that I switched I see what everyones talking about. Theory craft is so easy to do and people need to stop telling Zergs how to operate because in game things are always different. The fast nydus cheese is a good idea but SUPER risky and even at gold level Terrans supply around their base because they are turtling and watching their main like hawks. I really think early game is the only problem with Zerg against Terran, mech is hard but beatable. So if something was changed so Zergs could deal with Terrans million options of harass I think things would be fine.
Almost every game I get a reaper in my main, then hellions and then banshees so I have to stay tight and not mass expand. By the time I can safely build up and tech the Terran is pushing out with a ball and if I am a better player I can stop it but otherwise... You know the story.
But I digress, my main point is stop the theory craft, things are harder to pull off then just a build order or idea.
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On August 19 2010 05:32 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 05:21 lindn wrote:On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote:
Zerg is UP...under polished. that. i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time. I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one. I just hope Blizz figures out something. Edit: I evolved into a hydra >:D
I'm not to sure why people have the notion that dramatic change is impossible outside of beta. Sure it's uncanny, as game developers want to try and get a finalized version of their game.
But look at games that seem to be ever changing like DotA, it changes A LOT and yet still manages to keep most of it's fan base. It's not really up to the Game Developers to say "This change is too drastic" or "This change will not be accepted by the players" but rather the players themselves to embrace.
But yes, more power to Blizzard, they'll probably get something about the disgruntled community ;P
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On August 19 2010 05:42 RoarMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2010 05:32 Skillz_Man wrote:On August 19 2010 05:21 lindn wrote:On August 18 2010 00:11 Archerofaiur wrote:
Zerg is UP...under polished. that. i'm relying on blizzard making the right move, and that takes time. I agree on the that matter, but a race is really hard to polish once a game is out. Like adding a completely new unit into the game or getting rid of one. I just hope Blizz figures out something. Edit: I evolved into a hydra >:D I'm not to sure why people have the notion that dramatic change is impossible outside of beta. Sure it's uncanny, as game developers want to try and get a finalized version of their game. But look at games that seem to be ever changing like DotA, it changes A LOT and yet still manages to keep most of it's fan base. It's not really up to the Game Developers to say "This change is too drastic" or "This change will not be accepted by the players" but rather the players themselves to embrace. But yes, more power to Blizzard, they'll probably get something about the disgruntled community ;P
Well I suppose since the game is still in it's early stages there's stuff they can still do. But imagine SC1 and removing tanks, or Call of Duty and adding vehicles into the game or something. Those changes just don't feel right into a game already released.
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