EPTOn August 18 2010 08:33 Energizer wrote:
Guys dont worry, its just beta-
Oh wait... Nevermind.
Guys dont worry, its just beta-
Oh wait... Nevermind.
Because people weren't complaining in beta that zerg was too strong and terran mech was too weak.
Bashiok Aknowledging Balance Issues - Page 7
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
Because people weren't complaining in beta that zerg was too strong and terran mech was too weak. | ||
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BamBam
745 Posts
On August 18 2010 09:05 Karas wrote: I won't debate whether zerg is ultimately UP, but I will say there are a ton more strategies zerg players can try before throwing in the towel. 1) More burrow uses (roaches, banelings) 2) More drops (very few zergs use drops/nydus right now, to their detriment). 3) Faster broodlord/ultra tech (right now the common z midgame is 2 evos with upgrades. What if all that money was spent on faster hive tech...it might be a better overall strat) 4) Corruption. Especially against those pesky thors, it might be a big help there. Game still has a long learning curve to get to where it is going. Burrow : 100/100 at lair Ok, lets assume out of sheer brilliance you have enough to afford all the essentials like roach speed (100/100), hydra range (150/150), Hydra Den (150/50), OV speed (100/100), Spire (200/200), upgrades (250/250 at minimum with 2 evo chambers) which is a total of 850/850 before burrow that is going to RESEARCH and not units. Now you want burrow? Ok.. that brings it up to 950/950. So, with burrow, what are you going to do? Bling bombs? They might work the first two times, but guess what? 4 blings (min) are an additional 100 gas. Eventually the player will catch on and put in a detector unit for their army. Your bombs have just been countered and unless you killed off a damn good amount of units, burrow was just a waste. Ok.. So now you decide to use burrow for roaches. Thats fine and dandy except the problem is that even though roaches are intended to have a very fast regen rate, its not enough to be able to keep roaches alive during a push, especially when theres a detector allowing your opponent to just shoot your roaches and killing them even while burrowed (which btw, your roach count is no doubt severely hampered due to the amount of research you had to invest in). Want roach burrow movement? Fine, another 150/150... Which brings the total to a whopping 1100/1100 in research alone. Oh.. and now you have to tech to hive. Drops : 300/300 at lair IDK what kinda zergs you play against, but I and many others are sometimes forced to drop.... but really what damage can be done before a counter attack? Its not like "LOLOLOL I DROP YOU LOSE GG"... You devote units and a large amount of resources in order to either 1)pull his army back or 2) Try to kill off his supply. Never does a drop actually lead to a win if thats all you rely on. Oh? You saying to do more then 2-3 drops in a game? Well guess what? That is a lot of units your devoting towards which all end up getting killed. Then what do you have to defend if the T player counter attacks at that instance? Faster hive Ok great, Lets assume you decide to avoid all the nasty stuff in the mid game and attempt to blitz for the hive tech... for what? You will still be SEVERELY gas deprived (ultras are 300 gas each, BL are 250 each including corrupter) in addition to no doubt having to deal with a monster of a push because as you were blitzing for your darling unit of choice, you in turn gave up map control and any real army to prevent a game winning push because.. Oh lookie there... your starved for gas and your unit is still building and... Oh crap the amount of time it took you to read this is about how long it takes for a push to be in your main. Yeh, not possible. Corruption : 150/100 for the unit, plus waiting for the 75 energy (I think its 75, or that might be the changeling ability) Lets pretend for a moment we didnt have to put in 850 gas for our research and we make an overseer. Great, you have an overseer w00t w00t! So you fly in, corrupt a building and bingo! ... now what? Well chances are very good at least 1 thor/colossus/ w/e got out before you could fly a OS in there and even if one hadn't, you get a max of 30 in-game seconds as a window to do maybe a few potshots with mutas or an impressive timing push (which would just get thwarted by the army the other race has). Ok, you made 3-4 OS for the sole purpose to just piss off your opponent with corruption. Well guess what? Thats 400 less gas gone to roaches/hydras/mutas to actually attack/defend or 400 less gas to research which is already demanding enough, and you are of course assuming the player wont just get some AA unit to hunt down OS and OV. Zerg has strategies, LOADs of strategies, TONS of tactics. But guess what? You cannot execute them all in a single game. Not possible. Its to gas demanding and usually cost far exceed the benefits. Plus zerg also has to deal with constant early aggression and timing pushes with no real way to push back in the early game without giving up any real chance of surviving in the mid game. Thus really, zerg is forced into a surviving position where you just cling on to w/e you have and hope you dont die. And I mean come on, its not like zerg was given much to work with from the start, only nydus for harassment and a queen for macro/creep. | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
Remember, their are 4 race options, not 3 (Random). To reiterate, he was saying that some teams might see 26% as being close enough to even distribution of races played and then not look for imbalances, but the Blizzard team is NOT doing that, but is, rather, looking much deeper. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 18 2010 09:53 Sylvr wrote: Remember, their are 4 race options, not 3 (Random). To be fair, expecting 25% random is unrealistic by nature (it's just harder to be good at all 3 races rather than just one). The split they're probably shooting for is 30/30/30/10. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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Befree
695 Posts
We're still in early stages of the game, and we can't just can't get too caught up in the short term balance. I'd rather we take our time and make the correct changes and just accept some tournament imbalances. As long as we start getting towards a balanced game by the next year or so, I'll be happy. Just gotta have patience  .(I play as Zerg also, to avoid any silly ad hominem arguments :p) | ||
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
On August 18 2010 09:45 Energizer wrote: Corruption : 150/100 for the unit, plus waiting for the 75 energy (I think its 75, or that might be the changeling ability) Lets pretend for a moment we didnt have to put in 850 gas for our research and we make an overseer. Great, you have an overseer w00t w00t! So you fly in, corrupt a building and bingo! ... now what? Well chances are very good at least 1 thor/colossus/ w/e got out before you could fly a OS in there and even if one hadn't, you get a max of 30 in-game seconds as a window to do maybe a few potshots with mutas or an impressive timing push (which would just get thwarted by the army the other race has). Ok, you made 3-4 OS for the sole purpose to just piss off your opponent with corruption. Well guess what? Thats 400 less gas gone to roaches/hydras/mutas to actually attack/defend or 400 less gas to research which is already demanding enough, and you are of course assuming the player wont just get some AA unit to hunt down OS and OV. Kinda of hard to pick up on this because both corrupters and overseers are 150 100 and both CORRUPTION and CONTAMINATION are 75 energy, but ya the spells are not the same thing, and CORRUPTION (+20% damage against single target for 30 seconds) is okay against air/ground massives, but sadly doesnt work on buildings (even while flying). Only reason its underused it because there is really no negative to use it since they have energy and only the one ability, but if zerg manages to get to late game ZvT they will clearly have air dom and likely tons of corrupters so i guess they should find more uses for this (although other than spamming on air units and tanks/thor what can you use it on?) | ||
Last Romantic
United States20665 Posts
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On August 18 2010 10:57 eth3n wrote: Kinda of hard to pick up on this because both corrupters and overseers are 150 100 and both CORRUPTION and CONTAMINATION are 75 energy, but ya the spells are not the same thing, and CORRUPTION (+20% damage against single target for 30 seconds) is okay against air/ground massives, but sadly doesnt work on buildings (even while flying). Only reason its underused it because there is really no negative to use it since they have energy and only the one ability, but if zerg manages to get to late game ZvT they will clearly have air dom and likely tons of corrupters so i guess they should find more uses for this (although other than spamming on air units and tanks/thor what can you use it on?) I still dont see the point of corruption tbh. I don't like these +dps spells that blizzard gives. If your making corruptors just for the +dps, your almost better off just making that extra hydra/mutas w/e as that gives better +dps than corruptors' ability, and it doesn't go away after the targeted unit dies. Since all massive units that can be hit by the corruptor are armour, why not just give it +25% pure dmg? Corruption just feels like a shoddy "oh we need more zerg abilities b4 they QQ..." At least give corruption auto-cast or something so you don't have to manually target each unit in the army after your corruptors become useles. | ||
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Kigari
Bahrain134 Posts
To test the water i've been playing zerg exclusively to see if it was really THAT bad and it isn't. The only bother would be terran mass bio & toss early mass zealots. Sack and overlord from time to time or better yet, go for lair/changeling before roaches etc. People don't seem to grasp the fact that zergs aren't meant to go 1 on 1 in unit count. You have to outnumber your opponent AT ALL TIMES. If you're at the same unit count you're going to get nailed, hard. Also why do you think the evo only costs 75 ? Think it's there just for the show ? Get your damn armor upgrades before lair as well. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:16 me_viet wrote: I still dont see the point of corruption tbh. I don't like these +dps spells that blizzard gives. If your making corruptors just for the +dps, your almost better off just making that extra hydra/mutas w/e as that gives better +dps than corruptors' ability, and it doesn't go away after the targeted unit dies. Since all massive units that can be hit by the corruptor are armour, why not just give it +25% pure dmg? Corruption just feels like a shoddy "oh we need more zerg abilities b4 they QQ..." At least give corruption auto-cast or something so you don't have to manually target each unit in the army after your corruptors become useles. problem with corruption autocast is that they could bait it and then send in air/massives during cooldown, unless of course they changed it from 75 energy and lowered the duration or something. In any case I only ever get around to using it against fliers and massives | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:45 Kigari wrote: My god what a bunch of crying noobs you guys really are. To test the water i've been playing zerg exclusively to see if it was really THAT bad and it isn't. The only bother would be terran mass bio & toss early mass zealots. Sack and overlord from time to time or better yet, go for lair/changeling before roaches etc. People don't seem to grasp the fact that zergs aren't meant to go 1 on 1 in unit count. You have to outnumber your opponent AT ALL TIMES. If you're at the same unit count you're going to get nailed, hard. Also why do you think the evo only costs 75 ? Think it's there just for the show ? Get your damn armor upgrades before lair as well. What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. | ||
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Kigari
Bahrain134 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:50 kNyTTyM wrote: What makes you think NO ONE else has tried this? Every single competent zerg does this and every freaking person who gives suggestions on how to play zerg says to sac an overlord. Yes zergs try to do this and no it does not work as effectively as you need it to. Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up... | ||
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shlomo
258 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote: Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand Lol, anywhere in mid to high diamond this will result in a bunker rush and you getting owned, or at the very best delayed a lot, which also eventually results in you getting owned. Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
im not sure if im still having fun playing zerg  | ||
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Kigari
Bahrain134 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:01 shlomo wrote: Please get out of silver league before giving us your zerg protips. There are very few maps where a hatch before pool wouldn't get scouted and bunkered immediately. Who said to do the hatchery BEFORE the pool ? Keep assuming you know best sherlock, maybe it's the reason so many of you zerg whiners suck so hard with that race ? | ||
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shlomo
258 Posts
On August 18 2010 13:05 Kigari wrote: Who said to do the hatchery BEFORE the pool ? Keep assuming you know best sherlock, maybe it's the reason so many of you zerg whiners suck so hard with that race ? So when is the pool going down that you have this amazing econ to put the hatch down at 14 and have zerglings ready for the bunker rush? Troll more imo, it's not obvious enough atm. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
On August 18 2010 12:56 Kigari wrote: Wanna know a very effective tactic that's totally underused as zerg ? - 14 expand - Zerglings - Lair - More zerglings (and i mean MASS) - Armor upgrade / Nydus If you're the least bit competent you can effectively nydus 60+ zerglings into a terran base by the time he's only getting his first or second tank... Him pushing doesn't make a difference because your critical number of lings will be too much to handle. Not even mentioning an early nydus will put him in hardcore defensive mode leaving you all the time you need to tech up... This tactic is based entirely on trickery. If they see the Nydus coming, you're dead. Also, it will severely put you behind economically. Mass Zerglings means fewer Drones. This is all-in; it is not something that is reasonable, stable play. It's a gimmick. Maybe a nice one, but victory by gimmick doesn't help you in the long run. The Terrans will eventually learn how to deal with it, and it very much can be dealt with. | ||
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