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On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote:
Adding something like regen, or cheaper/free Nydus Worms on creep would both encourage hit and run tactics.
Ok... so... you want a free instant and unlimited transport to the enemy's base? Please. Right now there's a risk to attempting a nydus "drop", which is good. Creating a drop situation with no risk is just stupid.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote: Plus, when pushing an enemy won't know if the army you just retreated from his forces burrowed just out of sight to heal or fled to the rally for reinforcements. The Zerg ambush would return.
Who are you playing against that you think people are confused when you burrow? I thought they got rid of copper league.
On August 19 2010 17:11 Melancholia wrote:Even better, let burrowed units be invisible while moving under creep, so when you're on your home turf you have the full advantage of surprise.
This is even more ridiculous than the free nydus worm idea. Really? Undetectable units? So you basically have invulnerable roaches, especially when you factor in the +regen thats part of your creep idea.
All these ideas are pretty inane. I'll be glad when bad zerg players stop coming up with retarded plans to make them better. That probably wont happen though.
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On August 19 2010 21:43 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 16:21 Tali wrote:
I focused a lot on spreading creep because I've seen it turn tides. And I do a decent job of it. But every time it turns out like this.
Pop out your queen, start spreading creep. You're proactively placing new tumors and going in 3 different directions to provide vision and flanks and increase wrap arounds, so on.
So you hit T2, you might have a few skirmishes here and there, a few scuffles. And the creep maintains.
And then mid-mid/end-mid game hits and the observer is out. Or he got his second Orbital up. 1 scan can kill 3 full jumps of tumors if it lands right. If they kill off your spawning tumor, well chances are you aren't gonna be able to get your Queen 3/4 across the map to make a new one.
And all of a sudden this creep highway you've been working on for 15-18 minutes is dwindling. And its doing it, right before the BIG BATTLE, when you need it the most. And before you know it, its mostly gone.
That is what I think its the real problem of creep. It requires a ton of focus and apm you could be putting into other things. And then its just so easy to get rid of later on. Yeah early creep tumors costing a scan is not a bad trade. But most Protoss pop an observer pretty early, then an obs + a zealot will wipe out 15 minutes of tumor hopping. And if you're mech and your push is like a snail a scan for 3 tumors is a bargain if it wins you the final battle.
I like the reverse creep idea a lot actually. You wouldn't feel so devastated when all that work is killed off. I completely agree with this. Unless you are playing against a noob, all opponents will destroy you hard work. Sometimes spreading creeps almost feels useless. Maybe each creep tumor (after it becomes invisible) should be as hard as morphing eggs? That way one scan will not be able to kill 3, and 1 zealot with an observer will not kill a big number of tumors fast. If needed to spend so much time and effort to spread the creep it should be harder for the other side to stop it.
The enemy has to invest more resources into destroying Tumors than a Zerg does to spread them outside "attention". One scan against three Tumors is a good tradeoff for a Zerg.
Just as Tali described it, covering the Map in creep is a big advantage for the Zerg and it would be unfair if the other races couldn´t counter that.
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On August 19 2010 22:24 SoFFacet wrote:
Thematically Zerg are supposed to be the fiercest, deadliest evolution of natural predators ever. Given that, terrain really shouldn't be any obstacle to them, they should be able to slither over broken glass and not care. They should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want at top speed because they are more Rambo than Rambo.
To be honest a homefield advantage like Creep makes a ton more sense for Terrans - and I play Terran. Just thematically, Terrans are good at defending prepared terrain. Its what they do. It would make sense if the Terran army went slower off-road.
Creep isn't really a "homefield advantage" in the traditional sense, as you can take your advantage to the enemy's homefield. Granted its not an early-game thing, but you should most definitely start working on it right away. There are way too many good things about creep for me to worry about my units being too slow off it. I want creep everywhere. Mmmm free vision and therefore map control..
And really SoFFacet, Terrans do have a homefield advantage. Its called walling off. And the terran army is pretty slow already, slowing them more would be tragic.
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Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it.
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On August 19 2010 23:53 Unentschieden wrote:
Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it.
And...that's actually a large cost if a T actually roams with an army instead of try to be cheap and take out tumors with just a few rines. If one of your scans get 3 of my tumors I'd cry, and if I scan as T and find just 2 tumors I'd happily roll with that. It isn't like a T has to push deep into Z territory, T just have to chip away the border creeps and set up his defense lines a bit past the limits of the creep. Same thing really applies to P too.
In terms of the gameplay though, that is the only real cost. The problem is really more how from a design point of view, that turned into creep = good, therefore off creep = bad. It is a neat mechanic that provides interesting options, but the result is simply that any good P or T will keep a certain distance away from creep, and that's it. There is no reason for them to engage on creep if they don't have to, and there is no way for Z to force the creep issue on them.
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On August 19 2010 23:53 Unentschieden wrote:
Yeah it is important to point out that Creep is nearly free and the only real cost involved is stopping the enemy from clearing it.
Time is a very important resource too you know. It takes a lot of time to spread creep, and to lose it so easily is a huge loss.
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I agree the feel of zerg is different now. Zerg is more like this growing cancer upon the land that will eventually consume everything.. instead of plain ol' swarmy. they're still kind of swarmy but now they're only really extra-swarmy lategame after creep is everywhere. swarmy swarmy swarmy.
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If the Terran is using a significant portion of his army and his scans to hunt Tumors you loose the cheap tumors but gain knowledge about the opponents units and positions while also wasting his Scanenergy.
There is a lot you can do in that situation that is more valuable than a few Tumors. Slowly chipping away at your "border" is way preferable to just walking by without you even knowing about it.
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one more suggestion - remove those mechanic's obstaclest, that slow your creep spreadation( not sure if that word exist) i mean tumor need to spread its creep on maximum distance by the time you can set new tumor, now its like 50% of creep is spread, so you allways have to snipe the place for new tumors, also creep should go at least down from cliffs
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On August 20 2010 00:10 Unentschieden wrote:
If the Terran is using a significant portion of his army and his scans to hunt Tumors you loose the cheap tumors but gain knowledge about the opponents units and positions while also wasting his Scanenergy.
There is a lot you can do in that situation that is more valuable than a few Tumors. Slowly chipping away at your "border" is way preferable to just walking by without you even knowing about it.
And ultimately, how does that information help you? It isn't that the information you get isn't valuable, it is just that there is very little to be done with it. In the BW equivalent, if we could force T to waste scans early on, Z has a huge advantage with lurkers and the ability for scourges to snipe vessels. That's really nonexistent in SC2, roaches have limited functionality and can't be massed, infestors can only use IT from burrow. We just keep on trying to spread creep and hope that they'll be out of position for some attack or waste precious mule energy for scan. However, T really doesn't have much urgency whereas Z, at the moment, really needs creep to be able to mount a significant ground attack.. I really can't help but thing that's not exactly how the mechanic should work.
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omg I fear blizzard has steered itself into a dead-end
to weak without creep, so no early pressure chances, somehow viable on creep, but despite the insane speed on creep, zerg units die in masses, because when you arrived at the enemy army, it doesnt matter if you are fast (except when kiting, preferably when the enemy has chargelots and forcefields)
imo best would be to remove the speed bonus completely, buff natural speed of zerg units, so they are capable for early pressure
but then creep loses its sense
and such gimmicks somehow dont fit to sc
(terran has too many of 'em)
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I used overlords once to make a creep highway. Man, what a fucking mistake that was. If you don't end the game right there, you're down about 5-6 overlords and supply capped like a buffoon.
I completely agree with the OP. Zerg units feel castrated because of the creep mechanic. Likewise, it forces a very passive play from BOTH sides of the equation. Protoss / Terran do not want to engage on the creep, zerg does not want to engage off the creep.
At the current state of the game, zerg just has way too many resources. Larva, creep, minerals, vespene. As such, there is just way too much shit to do as Zerg, and vs. decent players, the creep falls rapidly behind. Even if you win a skirmish, but lose all your creep tumors, what have you really gained? You cannot push out at all. Hydras are as slow as sentries. LIke how does that even make sense?? Protoss players know how fucking impossible it is to micro sentries to avoid anything. Now put that speed on a ranged DPS glass cannon, and well, it becomes a very painful story off creep.
I am not sure if the entire creep mechanic needs a fix, but some number tweaking is definitely in order. Make the hydra / roach faster off creep, not as substantial of a bonus on creep. Maybe lower the hydra DPS to help T/P compensate for this added mobility.
Its not that the creep provides an advantage. It surely does. The problem is that it is such a huge advantage that Zerg's mobility relies on the creep, which is too easily removed. It's such a large advantage that playing off creep is a crutch that shouldn't be present. It forces zerg players to play passively and encourages them to only stay on their side of the playground
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I think for now people need to spend more time with tumours and overlords. A big issue is overlord speed in spreading creep. I think it was Blizzard's intention to have something like a control group of overlords with your army after speed was researched. The upgrade used to be 50/50 remember - together with nydus needing creep to spawn. I think the mechanic got left behind a bit after those things changed.
Regardless of how much micro it takes in comparison to other races. I think skipping a spawn larvae early on (like when teching to lair) to create a tumour, and again when your expansion comes up can help speed the process. I see a general tendency of only making 1 or 2 tumours and using the self replicating mechanic afterwards. I think making 4-5 'starting' tumours would make a huge difference.
The key here is to incorporate it within existing builds without getting destroyed because you really needed those 4 roaches.
The overlord speed upgrade is one of many Zerg then REALLY needs and having a cloud of overlords following your army can get pretty irritating after a while. I guess it could help promote drop play.
I guess this is one of those 'invent muta micro' moments for Zerg.
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On August 19 2010 23:10 driftme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2010 18:39 SubtleArt wrote:On August 17 2010 16:03 HelterSkelter wrote:
I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't. That's actually a good idea It's actually kind of a terrible idea. So what you're saying is you want to give Toss/Terran players more incentive to go air? Oh, and ZvZ creep has absolutely no effect then? Or would you change the mechanic there so that somehow the game distinguishes between your creep and their creep? What about overlapping creep?
Giving them more incentive to go air is totally fine. If it ends up being imbalanced or vZ games become dominated by air then u tweak the units.
As for ZvZ, the matchup has a lot more pressing problems then a potential creep mechanic mix up
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Regardless of how much micro it takes in comparison to other races. I think skipping a spawn larvae early on (like when teching to lair) to create a tumour, and again when your expansion comes up can help speed the process. I see a general tendency of only making 1 or 2 tumours and using the self replicating mechanic afterwards. I think making 4-5 'starting' tumours would make a huge difference.
The key here is to incorporate it within existing builds without getting destroyed because you really needed those 4 roaches.
no spawn larva in early game will hurt economy incredibly
maybe give queen a creep tumor for free in the beginning?
but I still think that creep mechanic is something zerg doesnt need
i wanna mobility 24/7!
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No, missing one spawn larva for a creep won't cripple Z that much especially in the FE builds, and in the case where Z plays safe and gets 3rd~4th queen it is pretty easy to have a bunch of tumors. Missing an injection only really hurts if you stay on one base. I found that in the case of FE, the early creep tumor is often essential to get me the mobility I need to move units to nat in time to defend.
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+ Show Spoiler +Dimaga goes onebase nydus rush with lings versus reactor hellions, GOOD CALL.
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No, missing one spawn larva for a creep won't cripple Z that much especially in the FE builds, and in the case where Z plays safe and gets 3rd~4th queen it is pretty easy to have a bunch of tumors. Missing an injection only really hurts if you stay on one base. I found that in the case of FE, the early creep tumor is often essential to get me the mobility I need to move units to nat in time to defend.
na, gonna try it out some time
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On August 20 2010 00:39 junemermaid wrote:
I completely agree with the OP. Zerg units feel castrated because of the creep mechanic. Likewise, it forces a very passive play from BOTH sides of the equation. Protoss / Terran do not want to engage on the creep, zerg does not want to engage off the creep.
ye, good point here, the only dynamic matchup is zvz, where creep doesnt give advantage to any side, thus if it was like you dont move faster on enemy's creep, i imagine there would be same boring passive basesitting games, as we see it in other zerg matchups.
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I think that it wouldn't be to hard for blizzard to reverse the way The Creep works. Instead of making your units move faster on the creep, make enemies move slower. This, to me, makes a whole lot more sence. Looking at it, it looks like it would be squishy and sticky, something that only the zerg know how to navigate. This would also increase the swarmy feeling because you could surround enemies that are trying to retreat.
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EPT
