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This is just a little something that annoys due to the entire purpose of a shield.
The shield takes damage before it hits the unit, that's the entire purpose of a shield. Why is it then, that the armor type of the unit being hit, determine the damage being done. (Example is Marauder does 20 damage to Stalker's shields rather than 10)
This isn't a rage posts, it just annoys me that shields are not longer a separate thing to take damage with, its more of just another amount of health with happens to regenerate.
Am I really the only one confused as to why they decided to do this?
Poll: Does armor type affecting damage to shields make sense?Stop Whining (138) 47% No (137) 46% Yes (20) 7% 295 total votes Your vote: Does armor type affecting damage to shields make sense? (Vote): No
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Stop Whining
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Hm... it really shouldn't be that way. gotta test that ^.^ (and then rage like mad lol)
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It's how they decided to balance protoss hitpoints. It makes things uncomplicated and prevents scenarios where zealots beat upgraded hellions without taking any damage meanwhile Marauders become the defacto best unit vs zealots and stalkers absolutely rape Marauders. Even as Hydralisks and Zerglings and Marines remain unaffected. So how do they rebalance hitpoints? They can't. It is actually impossible with the damage system they've set-up. Assuming they want to keep it simple and not add a vs shield modifier to everyone non normal damage unit.
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shields are shields, if you want to do extra damage to shields then you should really have a unit that gets bonus damage vs shields, if blizz was stupid enough to code shields as regenerating hitpoints they need to be beaten with a flyswatter.
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It logically shouldn't take the attribute, but it doesn't matter since they would tune it down if it didn't, since it wouldn't be fair with current unit hp/shields.
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Maybe the shields absorb what would have hit, so if its 20dmg its 20dmg the shield needs to absorb because the attack would be more devasting to the armor underneath so the shield needs to work more. A better question would be why doesn't armor upgrades effect shield damage.
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I agree that it doesn't make sense, but what would you propose? Remove +dmg against shields and rebalance (nerf) all shield values? Not very much to gain from all that effort.
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Though I will agree that shields to have an armor type don't make sense (except hardened shields of course), don't you see that shields are actually stronger in sc2 over sc:bw. In BW shields recharged very slowly, and took full damage vs everything, regardless of damage type (there were actually light, medium and armored in sc1, it just wasn't explicitly stated). Now atleast there is a chance of reduced damage, which doesn't make sense, but makes it stronger. Stop Whining
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Stop whining.
No it doesn't make sense but the game is balanced around it and they aren't going to completely redo protoss just so the shields are different.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2010 03:32 Shroud wrote:
Though I will agree that shields to have an armor type don't make sense (except hardened shields of course), don't you see that shields are actually stronger in sc2 over sc:bw. In BW shields recharged very slowly, and took full damage vs everything, regardless of damage type (there were actually light, medium and armored in sc1, it just wasn't explicitly stated). Now atleast there is a chance of reduced damage, which doesn't make sense, but makes it stronger. Stop Whining
Basically this.
Having shields work the way they do now is a buff from SC1, and to this point, the game has been balanced around it. I see no reason to have to rebalance everything just because of something small like this.
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On August 08 2010 03:28 Tor wrote:
It's how they decided to balance protoss hitpoints. It makes things uncomplicated and prevents scenarios where zealots beat upgraded hellions without taking any damage meanwhile Marauders become the defacto best unit vs zealots and stalkers absolutely rape Marauders. Even as Hydralisks and Zerglings and Marines remain unaffected. So how do they rebalance hitpoints? They can't. It is actually impossible with the damage system they've set-up. Assuming they want to keep it simple and not add a vs shield modifier to everyone non normal damage unit.
They had shields take a different amount of damage in SC BW and Sc1.
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Well now that you say it, it does makes sense. However, maybe the shields are differently designed. Maybe a stalkers shield requires more energy to block something that would otherwise fataly damage it, like a marauder, while a zealots drains more while blocking a hellion attack.
But you've got a good point. Technically all shields should drain equally fast. Of cource the game would have to be balanced somewhat, but it could add some depth to the game with more hp/less shield but shield that takes same damage from all sources.
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While I agree that it is kind of odd, from a lore perspective, I'd prefer an easily understood, balanced set of units over units that make perfect sense.
Stop whining.
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Lets not completely change a core mechanic in a pretty balanced game k?
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On August 08 2010 03:28 Hyperion2010 wrote:
shields are shields, if you want to do extra damage to shields then you should really have a unit that gets bonus damage vs shields, if blizz was stupid enough to code shields as regenerating hitpoints they need to be beaten with a flyswatter.
I agree, and also, "my waifu for Aiur" means my waffle for Aiur I think. My chinese teacher liked telling us how to say random breakfast items in mandarin...
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It doesn't make sense at all, but it also isn't even inconsistent with BW in the sense of damage changes. In BW, it made Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. In SC2, it makes Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. There was never any damage bonus in Broodwar, only damage reduction. So, it's the same thing in a way, although it still doesn't make sense.
Still, the cases where this would matter are pretty small, so it doesn't seem to matter. Immortals couldn't stomp Stalkers as fast, and Zealots could take some more hits from Banelings and Marauders would be a little less powerful against Stalkers, although be just as effective against Immortals as ever.
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On August 08 2010 03:57 RageOverdose wrote:
It doesn't make sense at all, but it also isn't even inconsistent with BW in the sense of damage changes. In BW, it made Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. In SC2, it makes Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. There was never any damage bonus in Broodwar, only damage reduction. So, it's the same thing in a way, although it still doesn't make sense.
Still, the cases where this would matter are pretty small, so it doesn't seem to matter. Immortals couldn't stomp Stalkers as fast, and Zealots could take some more hits from Banelings and Marauders would be a little less powerful against Stalkers, although be just as effective against Immortals as ever.
I.e. it would be a massive buff to protoss if it were ever changed.
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I dont know how it affects balance. But it sucks it makes no sense whatsoever and should be changed asap no matter how hard it will be to balance. Rather have some month of imbalance than such a major game flaw.
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On August 08 2010 04:01 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 03:57 RageOverdose wrote:
It doesn't make sense at all, but it also isn't even inconsistent with BW in the sense of damage changes. In BW, it made Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. In SC2, it makes Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. There was never any damage bonus in Broodwar, only damage reduction. So, it's the same thing in a way, although it still doesn't make sense.
Still, the cases where this would matter are pretty small, so it doesn't seem to matter. Immortals couldn't stomp Stalkers as fast, and Zealots could take some more hits from Banelings and Marauders would be a little less powerful against Stalkers, although be just as effective against Immortals as ever. I.e. it would be a massive buff to protoss if it were ever changed.
I doubt it would be a massive buff. But it's just an unnecessary one though.
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On August 08 2010 03:16 killa_robot wrote:
This is just a little something that annoys due to the entire purpose of a shield.
The shield takes damage before it hits the unit, that's the entire purpose of a shield. Why is it then, that the armor type of the unit being hit, determine the damage being done. (Example is Marauder does 20 damage to Stalker's shields rather than 10)
This isn't a rage posts, it just annoys me that shields are not longer a separate thing to take damage with, its more of just another amount of health with happens to regenerate.
Let me guess, you play protoss? Also then shields should take full damage from everything just like they did in starcraft 1, not reduced from everything. The problem with shields taking reduced damagew from everything is that then all units with +damage are heavily disadvantaged against protoss since half the time they lose a lot of their damage no matter what units the enemy uses.
If you want it from a lore perspective just say something like this: Light units shields focus more on deflecting allowing them to avoid the heavy hitting weapons easier while the armored units pure stopping power allowing it to stop most light weapons.
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This mechanic could be accidental, which would be consistent with the modus operandi of blizzard quality control.
Despite some awesome new abilities, in terms of raw unit strength Protoss in Starcraft 2 are shadows of their former selves. RIP Aiur.
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On August 08 2010 04:22 Klockan3 wrote:
Let me guess, you play protoss? Also then shields should take full damage from everything just like they did in starcraft 1, not reduced from everything. The problem with shields taking reduced damagew from everything is that then all units with +damage are heavily disadvantaged against protoss since half the time they lose a lot of their damage no matter what units the enemy uses.
If you want it from a lore perspective just say something like this: Light units shields focus more on deflecting allowing them to avoid the heavy hitting weapons easier while the armored units pure stopping power allowing it to stop most light weapons.
No I play random, I noticed this when I would use early marauders vs toss and we see that it did 10 damage vs zlot shields and 20 damage vs stalker shields. It had me going with a "wtf" moment.
I never said to rebalanced it, I said it makes no sense.
Also your argument about lore is well....poor. A shield is hit before the unit, hence whatever type of unit is hit does not matter, as the shield is taking the damage. The only way your idea would make sense is if you go based on unit size, and the larger unit would have a different shield from the smaller units.
Many people here also seem to think every observation with the game thats not necessarily positive is just people bitching, I had a good laugh at the amount of people who voted stop whining.
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You're right, from a physics standpoint that makes no sense.
Here are a few other things that make no sense:
- Units that fire in straight lines (Stalkers and marines for example) can attack things on cliffs above them, even though their shots have to be lobbed or curved in order to actually hit. How does it help a marine if a raven spots a unit on high ground for him? He still needs to see the target in order to hit.
- Units are actually trained/morphed on-site. It takes just a few seconds to train a marine and training is apparently done one (or two) at a time. No, that makes no sense. The zerg morphing process makes no sense for the same reason. Protoss are an exception as they warp in complete units over space rather than train or create them on the spot due to demand.
- Firing bullets at a heap of rocks will eventually cause them to explode and disappear.
- Psionics/Telekinetics/Telepathy is not an act perpetrated by con artists to make a quick buck or abuse people, it's real. Somehow.
- FTL travel is very real, as is protoss warp-in.
- SCVs carry an impressive amount of building materials in their pockets. Have they secretly mastered protoss warp-in tech? In the same vein, the study of morphing drones would yield some fun data as the energy required to transform at their current rate is quite spectacular.
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Conclusion? The physics of SC2 is shaky at best. It makes no sense that shields are affected by the armor type of the underlying unit, but then again neither does a lot of other stuff. Just takestarcraft for what it is: A very fancy graphics wrapper around a rule set for a strategy game. It could just as well be implemented and played as plain red cubes fighting plain blue cubes, firing plain green spheres.
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On August 08 2010 04:46 Toesmasher wrote:
You're right, from a physics standpoint that makes no sense.
Here are a few other things that make no sense:
- Units that fire in straight lines (Stalkers and marines for example) can attack things on cliffs above them, even though their shots have to be lobbed or curved in order to actually hit. How does it help a marine if a raven spots a unit on high ground for him? He still needs to see the target in order to hit.
- Units are actually trained/morphed on-site. It takes just a few seconds to train a marine and training is apparently done one (or two) at a time. No, that makes no sense. The zerg morphing process makes no sense for the same reason. Protoss are an exception as they warp in complete units over space rather than train or create them on the spot due to demand.
- Firing bullets at a heap of rocks will eventually cause them to explode and disappear.
- Psionics/Telekinetics/Telepathy is not an act perpetrated by con artists to make a quick buck or abuse people, it's real. Somehow.
- FTL travel is very real, as is protoss warp-in.
- SCVs carry an impressive amount of building materials in their pockets. Have they secretly mastered protoss warp-in tech? In the same vein, the study of morphing drones would yield some fun data as the energy required to transform at their current rate is quite spectacular.
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Conclusion? this is a bad game, you wasted your money /irony off.
fixed
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Blizzard's developpers balanced their game around this. So it would be dumb to change now because of some kind logic.
Who cares if it's balanced?
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You're basing your argument off realism? the fact that since it's a shield not part of the unit, that it shouldn't take any bonus damage?
Realism is the stupidest reason to make any changes in this game. 99.9% of the things in this game are complete fiction.
How about it takes ALL bonus damage. You know that's how shields worked in SC1. Maybe you are complaining about something you don't know enough about. I'm sure you'll be happy if they made the change where shields take all bonus damages.
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On August 08 2010 03:36 AnxietE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 03:28 Tor wrote:
It's how they decided to balance protoss hitpoints. It makes things uncomplicated and prevents scenarios where zealots beat upgraded hellions without taking any damage meanwhile Marauders become the defacto best unit vs zealots and stalkers absolutely rape Marauders. Even as Hydralisks and Zerglings and Marines remain unaffected. So how do they rebalance hitpoints? They can't. It is actually impossible with the damage system they've set-up. Assuming they want to keep it simple and not add a vs shield modifier to everyone non normal damage unit. They had shields take a different amount of damage in SC BW and Sc1. No they did not. Shields took full damage from everything.
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As of right now, its how the game is balanced and therefore makes sense.
They could have done
a) Shields take no bonus damage
b) Shields take full bonus damage regardless of unit type
And then they would have balanced accordingly. But that's not the decision they made. Protoss units would be balanced totally differently at any rate.
Although the idea of marauders only doing 10 damage to my stalkers shields makes me want to hug someone, its totally unrealistic.
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You already have rapid regeneration for roughly 50% of your total HP on your units. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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Why isn't there are "No. And stop whining." combined option? I play Protoss. The game has already been balanced for this somewhat nonsensical mechanic. There's no point in changing it.
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On August 08 2010 04:09 RageOverdose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 04:01 Wr3k wrote:On August 08 2010 03:57 RageOverdose wrote:
It doesn't make sense at all, but it also isn't even inconsistent with BW in the sense of damage changes. In BW, it made Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. In SC2, it makes Protoss units take more damage than they would normally. There was never any damage bonus in Broodwar, only damage reduction. So, it's the same thing in a way, although it still doesn't make sense.
Still, the cases where this would matter are pretty small, so it doesn't seem to matter. Immortals couldn't stomp Stalkers as fast, and Zealots could take some more hits from Banelings and Marauders would be a little less powerful against Stalkers, although be just as effective against Immortals as ever. I.e. it would be a massive buff to protoss if it were ever changed. I doubt it would be a massive buff. But it's just an unnecessary one though.
It would pretty much make any unit that deals significant bonus damage useless compared to its no-bonus counterparts. Banelings would be complete garbage, immortals and marauders would be worthless compared to marines and stalkers, ultralisks wouldn't be worth buying etc.
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...and I thought Starcraft was a perfect simulation of reality. I'm so disapointed right now!
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They had shields take a different amount of damage in SC BW and Sc1.
And it's likely they started balancing the game with shields taking damage like in BW. But after some time they decided the system they have now was the most ideal. Remember blizzard started development on SC2 by using the the original BW and adding and removing things as they felt, just massive experimentation.
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It has to do with damage types in SC2. In SC/BW, there were no damage bonuses, just damage reduction and shields took full damage from everything. In SC2, there are no damage reduction, just bonuses, and having shields not take bonus damage would overpower them.
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Because it makes no sense why shields would take different +damage modifiers we could just modify the shield mechanic to work like BroodWar where shields would always take maximum damage from every attack.
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On August 08 2010 03:28 Tor wrote:
It's how they decided to balance protoss hitpoints. It makes things uncomplicated and prevents scenarios where zealots beat upgraded hellions without taking any damage meanwhile Marauders become the defacto best unit vs zealots and stalkers absolutely rape Marauders. Even as Hydralisks and Zerglings and Marines remain unaffected. So how do they rebalance hitpoints? They can't. It is actually impossible with the damage system they've set-up. Assuming they want to keep it simple and not add a vs shield modifier to everyone non normal damage unit.
this
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it doesnt make sense from a logical point of view, but it makes perfect sense in terms of balancing. with the dam system the way it is, this was the only simple way of keeping protoss units inside of the damage type system that was set up for sc2.
for example with shields not taking the extra damage, the extra dam of marauders to stalkers would be cut in half because half of a stalker´s hps consist of shield. so for half his health, he wouldnt be taking the dam he is supposed to. would be one huge mess and very complicated.
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Protoss shields have already been buffed like hell from BW. Maybe it's just 'cause I'm a BW player where shields regen extremely slowly and take full damage from everything, but personally I think shields are awesome enough as is.
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When you attack units, which are under Guardian Shield, is the attack affected by the armor type? - Yes.
Imagine all shields being just like individual guardian shields around each protoss unit, with certain amount of hit points.
Also, I wanted to vote: "Those people who tell you to stop whining are kinda bad mannered, and could just explain to you why it is the way it is, in a reasonable fashion" (most likely they also have no idea, which irritates them, so they just tell you to stfu, even though the question is pretty interesting). Anyway, just voted "yes", it makes sense (to me). Good day! 
P.S. If you need a more technical reason, remember that the plasma shield technology relies on psionic power. It is not a coincidence that usually the shield is just double times the life HP. You can think of the whole shield as hallucination on top of your life (without taking double hit though). In any case your real unit characteristics are psionically simulated by the shield, including the armor type.
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Stop whining. In Brood War, shields took full damage from everything.
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EPT
