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LURKERS
I have done what many might consider a very good thing and others might consider a horrible thing;
I have made maps with Lurkers.....
Yes, your face right now must be either very happy, no reaction or absurdly angry that you want to choke me to death 
Map stuff:
+ Show Spoiler +Maps with the Lurker in them.
How to play:
US: Go on B.net and create a game. Search for either Lost Temple, Metalopolis or Steppes Of War and find one with "-Lurker" to play the TIER 3 Lurker. Search for Jungle Basin with "- Lurker2.5" for the TIER 2.5 Lurker.
EU: Im TRYING to upload it to you guys its just that my friend on the EU is almosty never on MSN so I can send him the files to put up.
KR: Have no idea if I even will, sry...
About the Lurker: The cute lil' guy is just like before; He is evolved from a Hydralisk but needs the Lurker Den to be built which is also evolved from the Hydralisk Den. In other words, he is EXACTLY what he is suppose to be pre-beta. (Anyone remember Sonkie vs Yellow?) Tier 3 Stats:
Cost: 50/100/1
Armor: 1
Speed: 3.38
Spines: 15 (30 vs Armored)
Atk Speed: 2.08
Range: 6 Tier 2.5 Stats:
Cost: 50/100/1
Armor: 1
Speed: 3.38
Spines: 15 (25 vs Armored)
Atk Speed: 2.08
Range: 6 (Research at after Hive at Lurker Den to get 2+ Range, becoming range 8)
Lurker Den also becomes a direct mutate of the Hydralisk Den without any requirements. I put this because the mutation does take quite some time (150 seconds) so a player will have to choose to either get a good hydra by immediatly upgrading ttheir range or getting lurkers.
The Why:
Now, I wont start discussing all bout the Zerg and weakness and blabla..there are TONS of threads out there (many of them linked below) on such stuff. No, in this I wanted to say:
Here at TL.Net, we (they) are among the best player (they are the best, imo) and I find that if there is any community that can test and decide the fate of our beloved game its this one.
So I put these up to see if rly, as blizz said, the Lurker is a bad unit because other units overshadow his role. That is why I came here, no one else except you guys can proove this statement true or false.
Links to Zerg discussion:
Post-16 Roach nerf discussion by Defrag
A productive Zerg Strategy thread by tfmdjeff
Good discussion about Terran advantage over Zerg by kNyTTyM (Ty for showing Saracen)
200/200 ZvT/P (about choke points too) discussion by Sheth (Ty for pointing out Saracen)
Poll about Zerg switching to Terran because of popularity by Limenade
Lurker Strenghts and Weakness Discussion by Omegalisk
Zerg and Bonus Damage Discussion by GrimJim
Expansion Unit for Zerg and Discussion by R0YAL (Good Lurker Suggestion here)
P.S: The reason why I put it here and not in Custom map is because it isnt rly new map or soemthing with a thread to give feedback on it. This thread is dedicated to proving that the Lurker was rightfully taken off or not! Although, if modds think it should not be here, please do move it
- The point of this thread is to discuss the Lurker, not adding more units to other races.
- About Lurkers and Roaches: I dont know about balance or anything on that but I was only able to incorporate the Lurkers into Melee because it was already partially in it so it was easy. I have only a very basic understanding of the Map editor and changing the morph from Hydra Den to Roach warren could be EXTREMELY difficult to me. I will try but I guarantee nothing.
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United States47024 Posts
Lurkers in SC1 actually had a pretty damn fast movement speed.
For comparison (SC1):
Slow lings - 1.108
Speedlings - 1.615
Hydras - 0.75
Speed Hydras - 1.105
Lurker - 1.2
So a movement speed of 3.3 compared to slow lings at 2.9 seems reasonable.
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is awesome32271 Posts
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro.
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On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro.
This. Especially since the new terrible terrible damage syndrome has hit SC2, lowering lurker speed was probably the worst thing you could've done to those poor lurkers.
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Ah, very well, shouldnt take long to modify this...
Movement changed back...
EDIT: oooooooooooooops...checking back, I forgot to change his movement to 2.5 to begin with...lol.
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On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro.
But lurkers in SC2 were supposed to be siege units with range 9 (I still can't help but drool at the thought)
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this is amazing
lurkers are the best unit in sc ever
<33
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I get the unable to open error.
You should also add Vultures and Firebats.
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On August 05 2010 16:13 Zombo Joe wrote:
I get the unable to open error.
You should also add Vultures and Firebats.
You cant play it through the GE, its locked. You will have to use B.net to play. If you cant get to it through your folders, search the following when making a game.
- Lurker
And btw, the point of me making this map is for the pure discussion of Lurker and why he was removed/should he come back.
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is awesome32271 Posts
On August 05 2010 16:12 Badjas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro. But lurkers in SC2 were supposed to be siege units with range 9 (I still can't help but drool at the thought)
Yeah, and lurkers in the BW manual are said to be support units (lol) 
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2010 16:20 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:12 Badjas wrote:On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro. But lurkers in SC2 were supposed to be siege units with range 9 (I still can't help but drool at the thought) Yeah, and lurkers in the BW manual are said to be support units (lol)
To be fair, when the manual was written, Lurkers did concussive damage. They quite possibly would have stayed support units if they didn't get hugely buffed to have normal damage.
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is awesome32271 Posts
Oh I didn't know that! thanks.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 05 2010 16:25 IntoTheWow wrote:
Oh I didn't know that! thanks.
Err, don't take my word on it right this second. Was looking for where I found the info before, and I can't seem to find it atm.
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United States7166 Posts
On August 05 2010 16:19 Zergling4life wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:13 Zombo Joe wrote:
I get the unable to open error.
You should also add Vultures and Firebats. You cant play it through the GE, its locked. You will have to use B.net to play. If you cant get to it through your folders, search the following when making a game. - LurkerAnd btw, the point of me making this map is for the pure discussion of Lurker and why he was removed/should he come back.
ya i searched for "lurker" when creating a custom game..nothing.
also i've no idea how to "get it through my folders" ??
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10387 Posts
Is the Lurker still a hive tech unit? Also what kind of unit type is it.. I hope not Armored lol otherwise its completely useless in ZvP. I dunno, seems like there would be some problems finding viable uses for the Lurkers at their current condition.
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On August 05 2010 16:28 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:19 Zergling4life wrote:On August 05 2010 16:13 Zombo Joe wrote:
I get the unable to open error.
You should also add Vultures and Firebats. You cant play it through the GE, its locked. You will have to use B.net to play. If you cant get to it through your folders, search the following when making a game. - LurkerAnd btw, the point of me making this map is for the pure discussion of Lurker and why he was removed/should he come back. ya i searched for "lurker" when creating a custom game..nothing. also i've no idea how to "get it through my folders" ??
oook, sry bout that, just updated em now. You should be able to play now.
On August 05 2010 16:31 ArvickHero wrote:
Is the Lurker still a hive tech unit? Also what kind of unit type is it.. I hope not Armored lol otherwise its completely useless in ZvP. I dunno, seems like there would be some problems finding viable uses for the Lurkers at their current condition.
Updating the OP with some more Info...
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United States7166 Posts
downloaded updated ones.how does that help? still "unable to open error' nor is it on bnet
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On August 05 2010 16:39 Zelniq wrote:
downloaded updated ones.how does that help? still "unable to open error' nor is it on bnet
w8, your right, they arent....
goddamit....
2 sec, trying to get it back up...
But you wont be able to open it with the GE anyway, its locked.
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i can neither play it, says "unable to load map" or something like that
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On August 05 2010 16:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:20 IntoTheWow wrote:On August 05 2010 16:12 Badjas wrote:On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro. But lurkers in SC2 were supposed to be siege units with range 9 (I still can't help but drool at the thought) Yeah, and lurkers in the BW manual are said to be support units (lol) To be fair, when the manual was written, Lurkers did concussive damage. They quite possibly would have stayed support units if they didn't get hugely buffed to have normal damage.
Wait they had the same attack as ghosts?
Wow.
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Ok, im not sure, someone has to confirm but...
You dont need to download: Just go on B.net, make a game and search for either Lost temple, Metalopolis or Steppes Of warr and you should find one with " - Lurker"...Can anyone PM me a confirmation that this works?
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Awesome man, would love some screenshots.
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haha fun  I like playing with lurkers! Blizz should add them back. I found a bug. Once you get a lurker den you can no longer research hydra range
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OK, just played a round of this on B.net.... A few observations:
1. Once Lurker Den has replaced Hydra Den, you can't get upgrades for the Hydralisks.
2. Lurkers seem a little bit too fast when they're on creep.
3. If you want this mod to become serious, it probably wouldn't hurt to add a few other units to the other races.... Vultures would be nice for T, probably wouldn't be terribly IMBA, and Protoss... egh, I hate to suggest it, but the scout model wouldn't be bad, and would make a nice counter to Void Rays I guess. If no other units for different races are added, this game will devolve into EVERYONE playing ZvZ, and nobody wants that
Keep up the good work OP!
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For protoss remove the dark shrine and buff archons just a tad, +1 range should do.
I don't think firebats would bring much to terran, but vultures could be fun, or add spider mines to reapers, but now I'm just making shit up.
Ohh, and maybe T1 burrow for Zerg, see how that plays out!
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Long time lurker to the forum, pun intended. Any way of sending me the mods required for the map so I can publish on the EU servers to try it out, as I can't find it while searching. :/
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Can't wait to try. Just for the good old days 
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My map editor does not have lurkers or any of the campaign specific units. How do I acquire them?
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Any possibility of uploading this to the EU server? I really want to try this ;_;
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On August 05 2010 22:37 MarioMD wrote:
My map editor does not have lurkers or any of the campaign specific units. How do I acquire them?
create a new map and instead of a melee map you want to set the parameters to a campaign map
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it's not on eu battle.net
upload the map perhaps..?
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I appreciate the initiative and I will play the map later today but I envisioned the lurker a little differently:
Since we have the creep mechanic now that greatly increases speed for most zerg units I was going to suggest it be rather slow off creep, but very quick on creep so that they can be moved quickly to defend.
I also wanted to try lurkers with cliff walking but have it be very slow cliff walking (the animation should probably take as much time if not more than a reaper) in order for them to be able to pick good positions to siege from easier.
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i wanna play with lurkers, oh boy, get it on for eu-servers!
Awesome!
And don't add vultures, cause Terra need no fix. If you add more units, please make a second mod cause this here is exactly what Zerg needs!
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oh nice
there is also a mod where mutalisk micro and tank hold micro is able too
i dont know why the hell those things were removed
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Blizzard: remove baneling and put the lurker. :| The lurker ir so much more original, creative and characteristic of zerg... i don't know why they'd substitute it for a 2nd class, somewhat boring unit like the baneling :S
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I just tested it out, and I love it! <3
They are fast little buggers too.
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Im excited about this. Screenshots please!
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On August 05 2010 17:24 ghettohobbit2 wrote:OK, just played a round of this on B.net.... A few observations: 1. Once Lurker Den has replaced Hydra Den, you can't get upgrades for the Hydralisks. 2. Lurkers seem a little bit too fast when they're on creep. 3. If you want this mod to become serious, it probably wouldn't hurt to add a few other units to the other races.... Vultures would be nice for T, probably wouldn't be terribly IMBA, and Protoss... egh, I hate to suggest it, but the scout model wouldn't be bad, and would make a nice counter to Void Rays I guess. If no other units for different races are added, this game will devolve into EVERYONE playing ZvZ, and nobody wants that Keep up the good work OP!
Fixed the that Lurker Den bug..
They are made to be like that, they are fast because they need to close in some distance before burrowing, making them vulnerable.
The mod wasnt bout adding adding units to every race but more about seeing why Blizz took off..
Althought, please do elaborate on "Everyone playing ZvZ", I would like to know why you think so.
On August 05 2010 17:32 Jermstuddog wrote:
For protoss remove the dark shrine and buff archons just a tad, +1 range should do.
I don't think firebats would bring much to terran, but vultures could be fun, or add spider mines to reapers, but now I'm just making shit up.
Ohh, and maybe T1 burrow for Zerg, see how that plays out!
As explained, the point of the mod istn too add units and change so many things, its really just to test out if the Lurker is worth it or not.
On August 05 2010 18:47 Rockafella wrote:
Long time lurker to the forum, pun intended. Any way of sending me the mods required for the map so I can publish on the EU servers to try it out, as I can't find it while searching. :/
Ima publish it on EU very soon.
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Is the Lurker the only addition to the normal tech trees?
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On August 06 2010 01:01 RoarMan wrote:
Is the Lurker the only addition to the normal tech trees?
Yes, lol.
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On August 06 2010 01:01 RoarMan wrote:
Is the Lurker the only addition to the normal tech trees?
From what I saw, yes. You can morph your Hydralisk den into a Lurker den when you have Hive tech, and then you have the option to morph your hydra's into lurkers, just like in sc1.
Bah, he beat me to it, lol.
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On August 06 2010 01:02 Zergling4life wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 01:01 RoarMan wrote:
Is the Lurker the only addition to the normal tech trees? Yes, lol.
Oh I saw someone talking about Firebats and such lol so I was confused. I will definitely check this out then, I've always wanted to see these Hydra-freaks Spine the shit out of some Bio Balls ever since I saw Sc2 footage from long long ago....
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how the hell do i play this map i went down for like 1000 maps on bnet on the new maps section but blizzard is fucking retarded
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On August 06 2010 01:27 llortyag wrote:
how the hell do i play this map i went down for like 1000 maps on bnet on the new maps section but blizzard is fucking retarded
Do a search for Lost Temple, Metalopolis, or Steppes Of War and then click the one with "Lurker" in the name. For some reason it won't find anything if you just search for "lurker".
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On August 06 2010 01:31 jpaugh78 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 01:27 llortyag wrote:
how the hell do i play this map i went down for like 1000 maps on bnet on the new maps section but blizzard is fucking retarded Do a search for Lost Temple, Metalopolis, or Steppes Of War and then click the one with "Lurker" in the name.
ty found it. but umm do hotkeys work in this map or is it just me?
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Hotkeys worked fine for me when I tried the Steppes of war version.
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Is anyone working on a SC BW in SC2? It'd b neat to be able to play some BW with SC2 graphics.
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How about a SC2 custum map made with only sc1 units and all the balance and units it had, this would be pretty cool
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On August 05 2010 16:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 16:20 IntoTheWow wrote:On August 05 2010 16:12 Badjas wrote:On August 05 2010 16:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
Lurkers are fast in BW because they need to be able to outrun other units and burrow (which takes time) to deal damage.
Slow lurkers would get demolished by marines hit & run micro. But lurkers in SC2 were supposed to be siege units with range 9 (I still can't help but drool at the thought) Yeah, and lurkers in the BW manual are said to be support units (lol) To be fair, when the manual was written, Lurkers did concussive damage. They quite possibly would have stayed support units if they didn't get hugely buffed to have normal damage.
Wait like vulture concussive? So they were useless vs everything cept medic marine and zealot?
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On August 06 2010 01:39 Xyik wrote:
Is anyone working on a SC BW in SC2? It'd b neat to be able to play some BW with SC2 graphics.
the hard part about this would be recreating all the subtle things that made broodwar. moving shots, retarded unit ai, 12 unit groups, proper unit stacking, if they used broodwar units, with all the new mechanics in sc2, i don't think it would be as balanced as sc1
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just tested the lurker but it was against the computer and i don't play zerg but umm isn't tier 3 kinda late in the game. i mean zerg tier 3 seems the slowest and everyone has detection by then
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On August 06 2010 01:55 llortyag wrote:
just tested the lurker but it was against the computer and i don't play zerg but umm isn't tier 3 kinda late in the game. i mean zerg tier 3 seems the slowest and everyone has detection by then
I agree. They should be Lair tech and not Hive tech. But such is the life of the swarm.
To be fair, they do a ton of damage when they do come out, so it may be a bit OP if they weren't tier 3.
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On August 05 2010 17:24 ghettohobbit2 wrote:3. If you want this mod to become serious, it probably wouldn't hurt to add a few other units to the other races.... Vultures would be nice for T, probably wouldn't be terribly IMBA, and Protoss... egh, I hate to suggest it, but the scout model wouldn't be bad, and would make a nice counter to Void Rays I guess. If no other units for different races are added, this game will devolve into EVERYONE playing ZvZ, and nobody wants that
Well Terran doesn't need anything. They have too many viable options. Protoss doesn't need too much either. If you would change Protoss, you might just need to buff some units. Make Stalkers better as a general combat unit or something. No need to add units for the other races because Zerg is the one lacking options. Not Terran or Protoss.
But as the OP said, he just wants to test the Lurker out.
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Is there any Top-Player Zerg able to do me a favor?
Play one of these maps with another human player and send me the replay and your own opinion on the matter? I would really want to make this unit the most balanced possible for maybe, just maybe, a chance to play it in the real multi.
Ty
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Just an idea to toy around with-- Can you try a version with the lurker being a roach morph instead sometime? The hydra has become a higher tech unit and a very important staple in many zerg armies. It kinda feels like a waste to need to sacrifice some to make lurkers. The roach seems like a slightly more practical building material.
People here talk a lot about Blizzard's concern that the lurker would overlap with the bling for splash damage, but we rarely mention their concern that it would overlap with the roach/ infestor for ambushing. It'd be kinda fun to burrow move roaches into position before morphing them into lurkers. Roaches could pop out to defend the now stationary or ridiculously slow underground lurker and add to DPS, while the infestors can help ensure that workers/ attackers stay in lurker range or out of range to hurt them.
The cocoon could stay buried and invisible, I guess, but would probably be OP if it can't at least be spotted somehow. Maybe it could make some sort of digging sound or an animation similar to the beginning of a nydus worm? That would at least give the defending player a chance to react.
This might give Z more options for harassment. I hear a lot of people complain about our lack of interesting harassment options. It would also make roaches a little more fun, as they've gotten kinda boring after all the nerfs. Late game, they sometimes seem like a waste of supply. The Tunneling claws upgrade is often skipped in favor of other tech. However, being able to turn your roaches from earlier in the game into high tech siege units or efficient base defense might make them and their tech more attractive.
We're also lacking in the base defense department anyway.
I like the idea idea of really fast but vulnerable lurkers on creep to defend. Unfortunately, that would make spine crawlers virtually useless.
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Can I download this map with the lurker somewhere? Sounds awesome!
I still think maps should be made with all the campaign units included and balanced as well as can be. Not for competitive play, but for the lulz
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Make the DT and HT both come from the same building. 
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Hmmm, I'm pretty sure this is not on the EU server. Could anyone upload the maps to somewhere? I'll try to make them
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On August 06 2010 01:40 Il1idan wrote:
How about a SC2 custum map made with only sc1 units and all the balance and units it had, this would be pretty cool
GREAT IDEA!
did you come up with this all by your self? or did your have some help?
wonder why no ones ever suggested this before... o.O
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United States7166 Posts
the reason why blizzard couldnt get usage out of lurkers with this configuration of lurkers is because it requires Hive tech. Change the lurker den to lair tech and it makes so much more sense
It'd be more like lair 2.5 as after lair finishes first you need to wait 40 seconds for hydra den (100/100 cost), then 100 seconds for the hydra den to morph into lurker den (100/50). If you wanted hydra range which you would if you wanted to make hydras, then you gotta either wait 80 seconds (150/150) for that, or wait the 100 seconds for lurker to finish before starting it.
as for lurker cost, build time is a combined 66 seconds (larvae --> hydra --> lurker egg) and a total of 150/150/3 cost.
and possibly most importantly, it gives zergs the lair tech anti-armored unit, that has splash and a range of 6 (although it is immobile). it doesnt overlap roles with banelings as banes are mostly useful vs Light units, and banes are very weak/mobile, while lurkers are beefy/immobile. and it doesn't overlap with roaches, it makes sense to combine the two together, one as the cheap mineral sink tank unit and lurker to deal the heavy damage
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oh my god please make it real. would be so cool to have smth like a "pro mod" with lurkers and stuff, wow
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make it lair tech, and make it morph from roaches, not hydras, with the lurker den or w/e its called coming from the roach warren. that would make roaches usefull for their supply cost, give zerg some mid-game strength/options, and cause zerg players to QQ less, which we all want.
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Trying it out with the Lurker Den bring a simple Mutation of the Hydralisk den, not requiring a Hive.
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is it possible to add speed upgrade to hydra somehow? and see if that's balanced at all? maybe make it reduce creep speed so that it's more off a off creep upgrade rather than a real speed upgrade like that of the zerglings and roaches.
gonna try this map out though :D wanna get me some lurker action!
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Damn, just played a game vs the comp and I gotta say that was fun. Didn't even know the lurker was added in SC2 form. I would love to see this in the real game. Maybe make it less powerful and add it to lair and we could really see games change in a positive direction I think as it would be a midgame unit that can deal heavy damage to armor and force opponent to get more detection. I think I've read that they removed lurker because Blizzard thought baneling/roach was a good alternative but still, throw the zerg a bone and bring back this classic unit ^_^
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I think Lurkers should be Lair units, and that the Roach should take the Hydras place as a prerequisite (How do you spell that?) for the Lurker.
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On August 06 2010 04:00 Nivoh wrote:
I think Lurkers should be Lair units, and that the Roach should take the Hydras place as a prerequisite (How do you spell that?) for the Lurker.
this.
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On August 06 2010 02:01 jpaugh78 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 01:55 llortyag wrote:
just tested the lurker but it was against the computer and i don't play zerg but umm isn't tier 3 kinda late in the game. i mean zerg tier 3 seems the slowest and everyone has detection by then
I agree. They should be Lair tech and not Hive tech. But such is the life of the swarm. To be fair, they do a ton of damage when they do come out, so it may be a bit OP if they weren't tier 3.
I played a few games, and tbh I felt they were perfect where they are at. I dont think that they are really overpowered at all, If this was how blizz had them in beta, I don't see why they were taken out. I'd totally love to do some lurker drops in SC2, right now I just harass with muta or baneling drop (I guess roach drops would work too)
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in bw lurks were often used as to delay the terran bio/tank ball push till hive tech was ready (a lil after the time vessels pop out) this is similar to mutas... thats why they were tier2
i havnt dled this or tired this yet as im at work so i dunno how it works out as tier 3 in sc2
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make it morph from the roach and require lair please. Idk if it should be an upgrade at the roach warren or simply require the lair. Something to think about
and some suggestions of what you could do next if you were planning on doing further modifications to other races. Add medics and firebats, requiring techlab of course. Replace the medivac with the regular dropship in campaign, and remove hellions and replace with vulture, adding the vulture mine upgrade at the factory techlab.
For protoss nothing since there is no reaver model
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i wish they could have 22.5 damage so they can 2 hit marines like in bw
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need to give other races something extra aswell imo... atleast protoss
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Just get rid of the Lurker Den imo...the Lurker morph upgrade should be from the Roach Warren after Lair IMO
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cool i love lurkers they are the coolest units after the high templar
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On August 06 2010 10:40 pzea469 wrote:make it morph from the roach and require lair please. Idk if it should be an upgrade at the roach warren or simply require the lair. Something to think about and some suggestions of what you could do next if you were planning on doing further modifications to other races. Add medics and firebats, requiring techlab of course. Replace the medivac with the regular dropship in campaign, and remove hellions and replace with vulture, adding the vulture mine upgrade at the factory techlab. For protoss nothing since there is no reaver model
Learn to read OP , this thread is only to discuss Lurkers and not other units.
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I played a game against my friend, if these were in the game i wouldnt be using them
they are soooo bad
also if you a click while they are burrowed they unburrow
?
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Oh lurkers how I miss you. I really don't care what blizzard says, I don't feel that they overlap in role. They definitely have similar roles, but you use each unit very differently. Lurker have more of a contain / harass purpose where as banelings are an offensive siege units. Blizzard shouldn't have removed one for the other, they both have their place. It's not much different from Reaper and Hellion. Both are designed to kill light and harass, but both are used differently.
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Bring back Lurkers! Zerg need a proper siege unit that doesn't get lol sniped by vikings. Also, I'd love to see some reps of people using this mod. GJ OP
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The mod wasnt bout adding adding units to every race but more about seeing why Blizz took off..
Althought, please do elaborate on "Everyone playing ZvZ", I would like to know why you think so.
A: Far be it from me to give you advice on how to make your map. My apologies.
B: I had an image in my head of 2 players entering the game, 1 goes and techs straight to lurkers, the other goes speedling/baneling and wins. In retrospect, idk, it may well be just as entertaining to play against lurkers as with them
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On August 06 2010 13:17 MrBarryObama wrote:
Bring back Lurkers! Zerg need a proper siege unit that doesn't get lol sniped by vikings. Also, I'd love to see some reps of people using this mod. GJ OP
TY!
Im trying to balance him the most possible to give him a chance.
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TY, i really enjoyed playing with lurkers, not exactly balanced at this point but every fun.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49906 Posts
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besides lurker...
a t1 scourge would be intresting to implement/test
ps: anyone on eu already played that map?
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On August 07 2010 05:15 sigma47 wrote:
besides lurker...
a t1 scourge would be intresting to implement/test
ps: anyone on eu already played that map?
Don't think we can play it, atleast I can't find it .
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Seems bit too powerful at the moment.
What could possibly work are lurkers at T2 without splash damage. Then add a upgrade for it at T3 into the Den.
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On August 07 2010 05:15 sigma47 wrote:
besides lurker...
a t1 scourge would be intresting to implement/test
ps: anyone on eu already played that map?
That would make ZvZ even worse than it already is.
Baneling scourge kills overlords and drones
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scourges to kill overlords?..... really?
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scourges to kill overlords?..... really?
yes, that doesn't seem like a too bad idea if it was
a t1 scourge
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more precisely i thought of a t1.5 scourge - baneling nest requirement
i don't think z needs another t2 AA and that's why i thought of t1
im not to sure whether i would go for a bnest and then spent 70 gas on every overlord i want to kill while my opponent can spend his gas on blings before the first overlord even gets blasted
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On August 05 2010 16:06 TheYango wrote:
Lurkers in SC1 actually had a pretty damn fast movement speed.
For comparison (SC1):
Slow lings - 1.108
Speedlings - 1.615
Hydras - 0.75
Speed Hydras - 1.105
Lurker - 1.2
So a movement speed of 3.3 compared to slow lings at 2.9 seems reasonable.
Did the math and ended up with ~3.1408.
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Change their range to 5 and I 'd say you'd have some balance there. The lamest thing I've heard from Bliz is them saying that banelings fit the same role as the Lurker and that's why they got rid of the Lurker... I don't think a tier 2.5 unit fits the same role as a 1.5 at all...
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On August 07 2010 07:17 tehemperorer wrote:
Change their range to 5 and I 'd say you'd have some balance there. The lamest thing I've heard from Bliz is them saying that banelings fit the same role as the Lurker and that's why they got rid of the Lurker... I don't think a tier 2.5 unit fits the same role as a 1.5 at all...
Where did they say banelings fit the same role as a lurker? What I heard is that they said "lurkers do not fit", which is substantially different.
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Zerg sucks. Really bad. Something needs to change. There's not enough unit choices or variations of openings. The other races have adapted so well and so quickly to the few things Zerg can in the early game. This is why Zerg loses all the time. Adding lurkers would create a lot more thinking and strategy for the other races. For example, instead of Terran just going Thors all the time (and unconsciously countering Mutas) they might actually have to go ravens instead. Or use their scans instead of only mule dropping. For protoss, a Lurker rush would be devastating if they opened with a 4 gate. They would get contained just like in brood war. The constant early aggressive protoss play would come to an end. Maybe then 4 gate or early harassment from reapers/bunkers to helions into banshees could have some repercussions.
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On August 07 2010 06:04 sigma47 wrote:
scourges to kill overlords?..... really?
yes indeed.
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On August 07 2010 07:21 edahl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 07:17 tehemperorer wrote:
Change their range to 5 and I 'd say you'd have some balance there. The lamest thing I've heard from Bliz is them saying that banelings fit the same role as the Lurker and that's why they got rid of the Lurker... I don't think a tier 2.5 unit fits the same role as a 1.5 at all... Where did they say banelings fit the same role as a lurker? What I heard is that they said "lurkers do not fit", which is substantially different.
They did say right out that Lurkers in their pre-beta they overlapped with other units and wasn't used enough. Sure they overlapped with the old Ultra when it comes to splash and Brood Lords when it comes to the siege part and partly with the Baneling. I partly agree with Blizz not having the Lurker in as a T3, I see few scenarios where I would go Lurker over Brood Lords or Ultras. But a Lurker at t2 or t2.5 sure would help keeping the timingpushes with mech at bay and at the same time give Z an alternative to Mutas for t2 harass and mapcontrol,
Edit: added the source with the "awesome" reasoning that T2 Lurkers wouldn't counter Roaches *_* (yes I am aware of the term taking things out of it's content).
"The developers say that Lurkers were taken out because their goal is to keep the unit count of the game as small as possible so that players know their choices and understand their enemy choices as well. They feel that the Roach uses the Lurker's burrow ability well, while Ultralisks and Banelings have the splash damage covered. Many units took over Lurkers’ roles over the period of development, so they didn't think they were as valuable anymore. But we all do miss them!
Well this is our point of view. I think that Lurkers should not really be Tier2 in the current build, because they don't really fit in there and they wouldn't really be a good counter to Roaches, given the fact that ZvZ is a very dynamic matchup and you would probably still prefer Ultralisks or Broodlords at T3. What do you think about it?"
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This reminds me so so much of the TL apr fools promod thing.
But i like it.
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i cant find it, i type in lurker and nothing shows up. My friend tried and didnt find anything either. US server
EDIT: NVM! i found it by searching lost temple instead :D
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49906 Posts
I really want to play this on the EU server
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I am trying to publish this on the EU server but I keep getting weird errors from the Editor. Has anyone managed yet?
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Wow, so lurkers were removed, but they were still secretly in the game. Even though zerg is my weakest of the three races, i would have no objections to lurkers returning. Played some games v compy, it was pretty fun. What I really would like to see is some top zerg player opinion. IdrA should try it.
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Its sad really. Its the kind of unit that had the potential to beat more units that its cost... right now zergs are really not cost effective.
Could we have this uploaded in the EU pls
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I searched "lurker" and found nothing, but I searched "Lost Temple" and the lurker version was one of the results.
THIS IS SO AWESOME!!
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I believe a better way to obtain the Lurker would be for them to morph from the roach. It makes more sense game wize because Roaches are burrowers also and they are usually used at start.
A tier 2.5 unit morphing from the Roach for a reseach would be awesome.
Next off, another idea to think about would be giving the Lurkers tunneling claws as well. Granted, their movement speed underground should be very slow but its something to consider nonetheless.
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Tunneling Claws for Lurkers was something that i had in my mind aswell. I agree it has o be much slower then roach burrow speed but would be a nifty t3 upgrade.
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definitely make it morph from the roach and make the lurker an upgrade at the roach den. It would create this cool dimension for zerg where they could choose to keep their roaches that can move under ground, or morph them to lurkers which can attack underground but are sieged.
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On August 08 2010 08:54 pzea469 wrote:
definitely make it morph from the roach and make the lurker an upgrade at the roach den. It would create this cool dimension for zerg where they could choose to keep their roaches that can move under ground, or morph them to lurkers which can attack underground but are sieged.
Agree.
I can imagine a few Roaches secretly tunneling into a base, morphing into Lurkers and wreaking havoc.
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Could you please post the link towards that Lurker-Mod 0.3, I need it in order to upload this map to EU battle net
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still waiting for the EU upload
this is shitty, seriously blizzard? why do we need the map uploaded to EU servers to even be able to play it with the starcraft editor? seems a bit fucked up doesn't it?
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totally fucked up if you ask me. I mean, ok, separate the regions and all if you want (and invoke reasons like lag and other shit), but why the heck is it that if a map is uploaded to a region it is still unavailable for others to play. Its just really dumb and it promotes separation even more.
1 year from now, I assume we will have a separate version of DotA for each region as well as many many different custom maps for different regions.
Is this how you create a community? By dividing it? Really?
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I repeat my demand: could someone from the US server, download the Lurker-Mod 0.3 Dependancy for the 3 maps from their Battle Net and post it somewhere, so I can upload these maps to EU as well. thank you.
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Is there a video of this somewhere?
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omg why is it so hard to publish this map on the eu server :O
neeeeeeed!
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Are there any videos of this mod up? I would like to watch some games.
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On August 08 2010 23:41 Ohdamn wrote:
omg why is it so hard to publish this map on the eu server :O
neeeeeeed!
well because the maps have a dependancy which is not available, as far as I know... we must wait for the OP to post it someone to download first.
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On August 07 2010 01:38 Zergling4life wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 13:17 MrBarryObama wrote:
Bring back Lurkers! Zerg need a proper siege unit that doesn't get lol sniped by vikings. Also, I'd love to see some reps of people using this mod. GJ OP TY! Im trying to balance him the most possible to give him a chance.
Well we tested it a bit.... and relatively high diamond level... and since he's a hive tech and takes almost as long as the spire to build up... he has basicaly no utility. We've sucesfuly used him once or twice I'd say.
To be honest having him at T2.5 would be good. T3~3.5 seems a bit ridiculous cause at this stage of the game... ultras and broodlords just seems better answers!
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United States7166 Posts
if the OP does not try changing lurkers to tier 2 (tier 2.5 to be exact), I'll try and figure this out when I get a chance, today probably if not tomorrow.
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It should be able to directly morph from the Hydra den with no requirements :p. That would make like a Banelings Nest or a Roach Warren, filling a missing gap of t2.5 in zerg tech, and have a nice dynamic in its conflict with hydra range. 150/150 cost im thinkin.
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On August 09 2010 03:35 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 01:38 Zergling4life wrote:On August 06 2010 13:17 MrBarryObama wrote:
Bring back Lurkers! Zerg need a proper siege unit that doesn't get lol sniped by vikings. Also, I'd love to see some reps of people using this mod. GJ OP TY! Im trying to balance him the most possible to give him a chance. Well we tested it a bit.... and relatively high diamond level... and since he's a hive tech and takes almost as long as the spire to build up... he has basicaly no utility. We've sucesfuly used him once or twice I'd say. To be honest having him at T2.5 would be good. T3~3.5 seems a bit ridiculous cause at this stage of the game... ultras and broodlords just seems better answers!
I love that high level players are getting involved and posting there feedback. We should organize the feedback in some way...
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Blizzard sure did mess up with Zerg...they basically released a gimped race...
But you knows that is why i pick them and main Zerg because it adds that extra bit of excitement...you know your playing with the gimped race and have to literally always be better then your opponent.
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On August 08 2010 08:54 pzea469 wrote:
definitely make it morph from the roach and make the lurker an upgrade at the roach den. It would create this cool dimension for zerg where they could choose to keep their roaches that can move under ground, or morph them to lurkers which can attack underground but are sieged.
That is a nice point of view and will make the game much more interesting in tier 2.5 stage, but I highly wish you will bring this mod in EU servers too, in any form...
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On August 06 2010 02:51 MangoTango wrote:Make the DT and HT both come from the same building.
EF to the YEAH
Can some people that know how to use the map editor to make these changes please make a thread and start making these changes and release new versions to discuss.
I think we can all agree that the lurker is almost useless where its at right now and needs to come a lot earlier.
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Lurkers should be 2 pop tho. (Uless you meant increase of 1 pop. from 1 pop. hydra by 50/100/1)
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the problem i have is the life for the lurker, yes this is T3 but as protoss i can see to get hard time to kill mass lurker if they have as much range as colossus, maybe change for making the storm usefull against them like in bw, and i wonder how good a toss will be to break a mass lurker countaine
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K, im making a new mod with lurkers at tier 2.5 and slightly less powerful but have a research at tier 3 to buff him back.
Working on it, shouldnt take too long...
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btw can you tell me how you succed to get the lurker from the editor i can't find how to get them
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On August 09 2010 11:22 Zergling4life wrote:
K, im making a new mod with lurkers at tier 2.5 and slightly less powerful but have a research at tier 3 to buff him back.
Working on it, shouldnt take too long...
Take your time, good sir! The whole community is behind you, because we would all like to have a balanced, interesting lurker added.
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On August 09 2010 11:31 KhAlleB wrote:
btw can you tell me how you succed to get the lurker from the editor i can't find how to get them
You have to make a new map or add the campaign dependencies to an already made map. When making a new one, somewhere on the top, there should be soemthing called "Dependencies"; Change that to campaign and you should get lurker but the rest will also be campaign (many standard multiplayer units are different in small stats.)
OR
You could open a map then go in files -> Dependencies and click "Add standard" and add then check every box and then the lurker along with every other unit should be there.
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On August 09 2010 11:38 Paper117 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 11:22 Zergling4life wrote:
K, im making a new mod with lurkers at tier 2.5 and slightly less powerful but have a research at tier 3 to buff him back.
Working on it, shouldnt take too long... Take your time, good sir! The whole community is behind you, because we would all like to have a balanced, interesting lurker added.
I dont know if you can say the whole community but certainly allot of people
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On August 09 2010 11:39 Zergling4life wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 11:31 KhAlleB wrote:
btw can you tell me how you succed to get the lurker from the editor i can't find how to get them You have to make a new map or add the campaign dependencies to an already made map. When making a new one, somewhere on the top, there should be soemthing called "Dependencies"; Change that to campaign and you should get lurker but the rest will also be campaign (many standard multiplayer units are different in small stats.) OR You could open a map then go in files -> Dependencies and click "Add standard" and add then check every box and then the lurker along with every other unit should be there.
thanks man
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Done!
Added it but just as Jungle Basin. Check the OP to see how to play it.
Please, people give me some feedback.
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for a zerg t2.5 200 hp is alot imo
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On August 09 2010 12:02 KhAlleB wrote:
for a zerg t2.5 200 hp is alot imo
We need some way to corrdinate feedback. Blizzard collects stats. We should too.
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On August 09 2010 12:07 Archerofaiur wrote:We need some way to corrdinate feedback. Blizzard collects stats. We should too.
this is hard to get data from game against AI, and no 1 join because this map isnt ''popular''
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On August 09 2010 12:08 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 12:07 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 09 2010 12:02 KhAlleB wrote:
for a zerg t2.5 200 hp is alot imo We need some way to corrdinate feedback. Blizzard collects stats. We should too. this is hard to get data from game against AI, and no 1 join because this map isnt ''popular''
We can figure something out. Things like hp are prolly left till later but what we could do is have people pair up and play at certain times. So say for deciding whether it should be a roach or hydra evolution we can have players play with both mods and than vote in polls like this (example)
Poll: Should the Lurker be a hydra or roach evolution? Roach (57) 72% Hydra (22) 28% 79 total votes Your vote: Should the Lurker be a hydra or roach evolution? (Vote): Hydra
(Vote): Roach
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one day i plan to revert all units from brood war to their broodwar stats/etc and restore all the terran units from editor (so vulture replacing hellion)
also change the vulture so it drops mines underneath it. instead of having a targetted cast range (this pissed me off in the campaign. i hated using vultures because of this)
but that wont be for awhile since i just started a new map...
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Although its fantastic to play with lurkers I have to say after 10 matches t3 is just too high.
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My Lurker Suggestion:
Lurker:
* Morphs from Roach
* Requirements:
- Lair
- Roach Warren
- Lurker Aspect research at Roach Warren (100min, 100gas, 60 second)
* Cost:
- 50 minerals
- 125 gas
- 1 food
- (to a total of 75+50 = 125minerals, 25+125 = 150gas, 2+1= 3 population)
* Damage:
- 15 + 10 (Armored)
- Cooldown: 1.7
- Upgrades: 2 + 2 (Armored)
- Range 7 + 2 (Upgrade at Hive)
* Armor: 1 (+1)
- Health: 150
- Modifier: Biological
* Movement Speed
- On ground: 3.3
- Underground: 0 (+0.9)
* Upgrades affecting the unit:
- Zerg Missile Attacks: gives +2 normal dmg and +2 vs Armored extra damage
- Zerg Carapace: gives +1 Armor
- Tunneling Claws: Gives the Lurker the Ability to move underground at a speed of 0.9 and 5hp/sec regeneration
- Extended Spines (at Roach Warren, requires Hive): Increases Lurker Attack Range by 2.
I believe these numbers will make the unit slightly overpowered but they are the ones I would like to try out.
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K, thats not difficult, ill try....
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A map with these at t2.5 would be great to try out. =)
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On August 09 2010 15:26 Zergling4life wrote:
K, thats not difficult, ill try....
tell me when you're done with it with the name... i'll call my protoss and terran friend and we'll test your map at the 600ish diamond level
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On August 09 2010 15:56 Sealteam wrote:
A map with these at t2.5 would be great to try out. =)
....I made one yesterday with Lurker at 2.5....
Check the op to see how to play it.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49906 Posts
If you want I'll upload it on EU I just need the mod files since I already downloaded the map files.
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FEEDBACK:
release this frkn mod on the EU server!!!!!
or give people the things they need to upload it on the eu server!!!!
wanna play this sooo hard...
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I agree, I would love to try this on EU
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that would be pretty neato to try out
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On August 09 2010 17:23 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 15:26 Zergling4life wrote:
K, thats not difficult, ill try.... tell me when you're done with it with the name... i'll call my protoss and terran friend and we'll test your map at the 600ish diamond level
If you keep track of some stats (player, rank, race, who won) and post them here ill start a spreadsheet for everyone.
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So what we did was just to play 7 games in a row me being the zerg currently @ 557 diamond, the protoss is currently 601 and the terran is currently 590.
Zerg vs Protoss : 4win - 3lost
Zerg vs Terran : 2win - 5lost
Zerg vs Zerg : I can't see any use for him
Basicaly...
vs protoss since we're going hydra anyways it's a good thing to get lurker. But terran just put too much pressure for us to use lurker efficiently and it's actualy rare that you'll get hydras in 1v1 vs a terran, in any case I forced myseft to go lurker vs terran to see what it did.
Also we did a test and I was sure that lurkers would own hellions and create some sort of "no go zone for the hellions" but in fact it's the other way around. lurkers just don't do enough damage to create this no go zone. At the price of 100-50 for the idra and than 50-100 makes a units of 150-150 3 pop... I would think it would do just a bit more damage. Remember that for 150 gaz I could get an infestor that would do pretty much more damage. Agreed the infestor isn't stealth/burrow but still... 1 fungal of an infestor that cost less and cripple my supplies a bit less will do more damage than a full serie of lurkers.
that being said... it's good vs protoss but i've seen barely no use vs terran or in ZvZ
Also 150sec to get the lurker den? it's 2min30.... tanks are getting at your door even before you can start doing lurkers (we tested it). seems a bit too much.... you already need to get the hydra den which is 40sec + 150sec = 3min10sec thats alot... add the gaz cost of the unit and structure... it would be kinda bad.....
Here are my suggestions
- Lower the transformation of the luker den to 80sec makings the hydralisk 40sec + lurker 80sec
Why? By the time you'll get lurker protoss will have enough time to get an observer and terran just has to scan. Also... it will just get out in time to fight the 1st tanks!
OR
- Keep it the way it is and make it a roache transformation requiring lair. This way you'll be able to set your roache warren before the lair and as soon as lair pops you'll be ready to start the transformation.
- Also tranforming for roaches will see more use in ZvT and ZvZ cause you'll normaly get roaches in both of those matchups. The reason why lurkers aren't used in ZvT and ZvZ is simply cause ZvT = almost no hydra and ZvZ is if you go hydra is cause you're being in mutalisk production... basicaly making it from roaches would see more use vs T and Z.
My 5 cents
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On August 10 2010 04:07 Konsume wrote:So what we did was just to play 7 games in a row me being the zerg currently @ 557 diamond, the protoss is currently 601 and the terran is currently 590. Zerg vs Protoss : 4win - 3lost Zerg vs Terran : 2win - 5lost Zerg vs Zerg : I can't see any use for him Basicaly... vs protoss since we're going hydra anyways it's a good thing to get lurker. But terran just put too much pressure for us to use lurker efficiently and it's actualy rare that you'll get hydras in 1v1 vs a terran, in any case I forced myseft to go lurker vs terran to see what it did. Also we did a test and I was sure that lurkers would own hellions and create some sort of "no go zone for the hellions" but in fact it's the other way around. lurkers just don't do enough damage to create this no go zone. At the price of 100-50 for the idra and than 50-100 makes a units of 150-150 3 pop... I would think it would do just a bit more damage. Remember that for 150 gaz I could get an infestor that would do pretty much more damage. Agreed the infestor isn't stealth/burrow but still... 1 fungal of an infestor that cost less and cripple my supplies a bit less will do more damage than a full serie of lurkers. that being said... it's good vs protoss but i've seen barely no use vs terran or in ZvZ Also 150sec to get the lurker den? it's 2min30.... tanks are getting at your door even before you can start doing lurkers (we tested it). seems a bit too much.... you already need to get the hydra den which is 40sec + 150sec = 3min10sec thats alot... add the gaz cost of the unit and structure... it would be kinda bad..... Here are my suggestions - Lower the transformation of the luker den to 80sec makings the hydralisk 40sec + lurker 80sec Why? By the time you'll get lurker protoss will have enough time to get an observer and terran just has to scan. Also... it will just get out in time to fight the 1st tanks! OR - Keep it the way it is and make it a roache transformation requiring lair. This way you'll be able to set your roache warren before the lair and as soon as lair pops you'll be ready to start the transformation. - Also tranforming for roaches will see more use in ZvT and ZvZ cause you'll normaly get roaches in both of those matchups. The reason why lurkers aren't used in ZvT and ZvZ is simply cause ZvT = almost no hydra and ZvZ is if you go hydra is cause you're being in mutalisk production... basicaly making it from roaches would see more use vs T and Z. My 5 cents
Great stuff. Ill start working up the spread sheet. And Ill add a note that these games were played with hydra evolution and a 150 sec lurker den.
Im liking your suggestions about making it roach evo. It adds a llot of pull for seeing it in more match ups. Also it doesnt really lock out the hydra since if you go roaches and then lurker you still have a lack of anti air that the opponent can capatilize on.
On the topic of lore, I checked in the Broodwar manual and it only mentions just once that the Lurkers are "bred from the hydralisk strain". It doesnt say specifically that it was an assimilated from a hydralisk-related breed (like how the gaurdian was the mutalisk nesting form.
As much as it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to change the lurker from a hydralisk to roach evolution its wouldnt even require a real retcon. They could just put the lines "Kerrigan's new breed of lurkers are morphed from roach DNA. "
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hm maybe sacrificing a rooster would speed up publishing this map on eu...
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As much as it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to change the lurker from a hydralisk to roach evolution its wouldnt even require a real retcon. Just be honest, the lurker while fantastic is a mid game transitional unit not a late game powerhouse. Thats why roaches deserve the spot as lurker morph units.
So if you could just remove the burrowregen and put the lurker morph there while keeping the damage relatively unchanged, perhaps even make it so that lurkers benefit from the same regen as roaches?
Maybe 35 against armored?
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Wow, alot fo support from you guys.
Im currently working on adding the Lurkers as a Roach evolution. Lets see how that does when Ill put it up rly soon.
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Baller game mode. This makes me realize heart of the swarm must have lurkers.
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There are some issues about Lurker Timings that you need to take into account.
- 4Gate: as lurkers completely shut down 4 gate, they should come later that the moment a toss oponent can pull it off. I vote for the zerg being able to morph his first lurker after the first 4 gate push from protoss.
- Observers. As protoss get detection a bit later (unless going for cannons) I believe the lurkers should be available at a comparable time with the first observer, making it able for zerg to push with lurkers if a toss delays his detectors, forcing him to put at least some cannons around.
- Against Terrans. Lurkers dont counter mech per se, but they delay it. Furthermore, it will force terrans to bank scans, therefore, making less hellions, therefore making zerglings a better response to mech.
- Another interesting switch to use is the burrow research: will lurkers be able to burrow by default? If not the Burrow research is another way to balance their cost/timing.
- The range 9 upgrade at hive should be timed around the same time a protoss gets his Extented thermal lance if both players are rushing towards them. Lurkers arent exactly a counter to colosi, but more of a response so getting this faster than the extra colosus range shoulnt be a big deal.
- Should units be able to micro against Lurker spines? This can be accomplished by tweaking the missile speed from the editor. Discuss.
- Very Important: Lurker Attack Range : In order for them to counter the units they are made to counter (marrauders, stalkers) they must outrange them so that their spines can hit at least 2 of them when they are clumped up. Keep in mind that marrauders are way cheaper than Lurkers and will beat them easily with proper detection and superior numbers in a good concave.
Also, in order for the Lurker to be an answer to mech they need to at least match the Thor in range. If not, 1 scan and a couple thors can kill the entire Lurker field. Lurkers can also help stop thor drops if again they match their range.
So an un-upgraded range of 7 is needed.
Range Upgrade: it needs to be 9 to match the range of thermal lance colosus, if not because of their stationary aspect, collosi will just snipe them easily making them weak. So 7 + 2 is the way to go.
that's about all for now... and oh... please upload this to EU, for the love of god....
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Dam dude, thanks for the feedback. Good info that I can play with atleast. Im still trying to upload to EU ASAP.
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in your OP you said your eu friend is never online..isnt't it possible to let somebody else do it? :O
sry for being a pain in the neck but i want this mod soo badly xD
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sigh...
As I said, its nearly impossible for me to move the morph to Roach Warren. The Data editor is slightly too complex for me to do that. Im still frustrating over 2 days on how to change it, still not able...
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Canada2480 Posts
On August 06 2010 01:39 Xyik wrote:
Is anyone working on a SC BW in SC2? It'd b neat to be able to play some BW with SC2 graphics.
Meh I don't think this would work
BW was made to be used with the BroodWar engine
you'd only get BW with MBS no move shot no muta stack no overkill etc,etc, (ie: imbalanced)
beside BW graphics were perfect for BW and I would hate it if BW had SC2 graphics
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You should add in a +3 range upgrade on hivetech, which was originally planned for the lurker.
Is anyone working on a SC BW in SC2? It'd b neat to be able to play some BW with SC2 graphics.
Much rather play an exact replica of BW with higher rez graphics made for modern displays.
Im currently working on adding the Lurkers as a Roach evolution. Lets see how that does when Ill put it up rly soon.
This is unnecessary because it doesn't accurately represent something blizzard would ever do. I can't see them retconning lore to such a degree, if they were redesigning the lurker in sc2, "morph from hydralisk" would be a design constraint, not a possible variable.
Also 150 sec morph is a tad bit overkill.
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On August 10 2010 18:08 okrane wrote:
There are some issues about Lurker Timings that you need to take into account.
- 4Gate: as lurkers completely shut down 4 gate, they should come later that the moment a toss oponent can pull it off. I vote for the zerg being able to morph his first lurker after the first 4 gate push from protoss.
- Observers. As protoss get detection a bit later (unless going for cannons) I believe the lurkers should be available at a comparable time with the first observer, making it able for zerg to push with lurkers if a toss delays his detectors, forcing him to put at least some cannons around.
- Against Terrans. Lurkers dont counter mech per se, but they delay it. Furthermore, it will force terrans to bank scans, therefore, making less hellions, therefore making zerglings a better response to mech.
- Another interesting switch to use is the burrow research: will lurkers be able to burrow by default? If not the Burrow research is another way to balance their cost/timing.
- The range 9 upgrade at hive should be timed around the same time a protoss gets his Extented thermal lance if both players are rushing towards them. Lurkers arent exactly a counter to colosi, but more of a response so getting this faster than the extra colosus range shoulnt be a big deal.
- Should units be able to micro against Lurker spines? This can be accomplished by tweaking the missile speed from the editor. Discuss.
- Very Important: Lurker Attack Range : In order for them to counter the units they are made to counter (marrauders, stalkers) they must outrange them so that their spines can hit at least 2 of them when they are clumped up. Keep in mind that marrauders are way cheaper than Lurkers and will beat them easily with proper detection and superior numbers in a good concave.
Also, in order for the Lurker to be an answer to mech they need to at least match the Thor in range. If not, 1 scan and a couple thors can kill the entire Lurker field. Lurkers can also help stop thor drops if again they match their range.
So an un-upgraded range of 7 is needed.
Range Upgrade: it needs to be 9 to match the range of thermal lance colosus, if not because of their stationary aspect, collosi will just snipe them easily making them weak. So 7 + 2 is the way to go.
that's about all for now... and oh... please upload this to EU, for the love of god....
i think the stalker and the marauder should be the counter of the lurker like goon was the counter of the lurker from bw.
The termal lance is important to stay faster to get, or toss will have so much trouble to break a lurker countaine like in bw where you need almost only the reaver to break it by cost effectif or by many storm, but with the higher health, less dmg and size by storm won't be good.
On August 11 2010 06:36 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 01:39 Xyik wrote:
Is anyone working on a SC BW in SC2? It'd b neat to be able to play some BW with SC2 graphics. Meh I don't think this would work BW was made to be used with the BroodWar engine you'd only get BW with MBS no move shot no muta stack no overkill etc,etc, (ie: imbalanced) beside BW graphics were perfect for BW and I would hate it if BW had SC2 graphics
and what i hear from other ppl playing with the editor you can make muta stack back
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On August 11 2010 06:38 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Im currently working on adding the Lurkers as a Roach evolution. Lets see how that does when Ill put it up rly soon.
This is unnecessary because it doesn't accurately represent something blizzard would ever do. I can't see them retconning lore to such a degree, if they were redesigning the lurker in sc2, "morph from hydralisk" would be a design constraint, not a possible variable.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/af/Corrupter.png/180px-Corrupter.png) ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/0/07/Brood_Lord.png/180px-Brood_Lord.png)
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yay played with the lurker! haha
donno what blizz was thinking making them hive tech
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On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above....
Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay.
Gameplay first.
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Nono, its simply the incinuation that made me laugh like...
Just those 2 pics prove everything.
Anyway, still working on the roach warren morph.
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On August 11 2010 08:03 Zergling4life wrote:
Nono, its simply the incinuation that made me laugh like...
Just those 2 pics prove everything.
Anyway, still working on the roach warren morph.
Morphling from Roach warren shouldn't be hard. Just change roach dependencies to roach warren/lurker den and add the morph spell from the hydra den to the roach warren. Add the roach upgrades to the lurker den, and viola!
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Lol, no, its by far more hard then that. While the ability to morph the Warren into thje Den is there, I cant put it on the command card, it wont allow. Thats the only problem for both the Roach morph to lurker and its respective building morph too.
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I dont know...
Im starting to guess that there is a bug which doesnt allow me to put the morph. I simply...cant...
While I change the name, the actor..EVERYTHING of the morph, when I go to add it, it still says Hydralisk Den -> Lurker Den...
I just dont know and I rly dont feel to waste more time...
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On August 11 2010 08:40 Zergling4life wrote:
I dont know...
Im starting to guess that there is a bug which doesnt allow me to put the morph. I simply...cant...
While I change the name, the actor..EVERYTHING of the morph, when I go to add it, it still says Hydralisk Den -> Lurker Den...
I just dont know and I rly dont feel to waste more time...
Can anyone else try to change this in the editor?
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just stop trying and put it up on eu.
ffs :x
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Until Zergling4life will put this mod on EU server, I have made a version not so "professionally" balanced, but for fun.
Map name: Blistering Sands - SC1 Units.
It contains:
Protoss: 1 more unit = Scout;
Zerg: 2 more units = Lurker & Scourge;
Terran: 1 more unit = Goliath
And some units replaced:
Hellion replaced with Vulture
Raven replaced with Science Vessel
EMP Round moved on Science Vessel
Lurker Den requires Lair.
For now, I checked and re-set all stats for Multiplayer only for Terran.
Zerg and Protoss could have some stats from Campaign dependencies. If you find something wrong, PM me, please.
I repeat: I made it for fun, to play with my friends. If you want something better/balanced, you should wait for Lurker mode or lets hope some teams will work for a SC1 Remake.
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After delving into the map editor:
Mind explosion
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OP, can't you just upload the map from your user folder and let someone from here upload it to EU `?
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On August 11 2010 08:51 apriores wrote:
Until Zergling4life will put this mod on EU server, I have made a version not so "professionally" balanced, but for fun.
Map name: Blistering Sands - SC1 Units.
It contains:
Protoss: 1 more unit = Scout;
Zerg: 2 more units = Lurker & Scourge;
Terran: 1 more unit = Goliath
And some units replaced:
Hellion replaced with Vulture
Raven replaced with Science Vessel
EMP Round moved on Science Vessel
Lurker Den requires Lair.
For now, I checked and re-set all stats for Multiplayer only for Terran.
Zerg and Protoss could have some stats from Campaign dependencies. If you find something wrong, PM me, please.
I repeat: I made it for fun, to play with my friends. If you want something better/balanced, you should wait for Lurker mode or lets hope some teams will work for a SC1 Remake.
you sir are my hero
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On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote:
wtf does that have to do with anything.
On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first.
Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians.
This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game.
If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it.
it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work
This would justify pretty well it being scrapped before the final release, and maybe reimplemented in the expansion. The question posed here is "could a variation of the lurker that was removed be refit into the game", not "could zerg theoretically use semi-stationary defense with completely variable stats and skills"
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMGGG WTF!!!!!!!!
Suddenly, I reload my frustratingly annoying map and I can now put the morph on roaches....wow...
Anyway, this shouldnt take long.
WHEN IM FINISHED THIS MAP AND HAVE SUCCESFULLY PUBLISH IT (WHICH SHOULD TAKE ABOUT 2-3 HOURS MAX), I WILL ADD ALL 3 LURKER-TYPE MAPS TO US AND EU.
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Suddenly, I reload my frustratingly annoying map and I can now put the morph on roaches....wow...
Yeah the data editor is unintuitive for anyone who hasn't taken a course on databases, not user friendly at all. I feel your pain .
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On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:wtf does that have to do with anything. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work
The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo.
On August 11 2010 10:15 Zergling4life wrote:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMGGG WTF!!!!!!!!
Suddenly, I reload my frustratingly annoying map and I can now put the morph on roaches....wow...
Anyway, this shouldnt take long.
WHEN IM FINISHED THIS MAP AND HAVE SUCCESFULLY PUBLISH IT (WHICH SHOULD TAKE ABOUT 2-3 HOURS MAX), I WILL ADD ALL 3 LURKER-TYPE MAPS TO US AND EU.
Keep up the good work. Are the maps clearly labeled like "Lurker (roach evo)" ?
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On August 11 2010 10:53 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote: wtf does that have to do with anything. On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo.
Thats because broodlords weren't in SC1.
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On August 11 2010 10:56 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 10:53 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote: wtf does that have to do with anything. On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo. Thats because broodlords weren't in SC1.
Makes no difference. And actually broodlords were originally brood gaurdians.
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Sry guys, will try to make it tomorow, more problems come up. Many infact...
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hey so ugh, I figure this is the best time to ask...
any idea what blizzard was trying to represent with the lurker's attack animation? bw or sc2
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On August 11 2010 10:56 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 10:53 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote: wtf does that have to do with anything. On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo. Thats because broodlords weren't in SC1.
Broodlords evolved from mutalisks for most of the beta. This was moved to the corruptor to give them something to do once Z establishes air dominance. What's your argument for how mutalisks forgot how to evolve in general?
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On August 11 2010 13:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 10:56 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 10:53 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote: wtf does that have to do with anything. On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo. Thats because broodlords weren't in SC1. Broodlords evolved from mutalisks for most of the beta. This was moved to the corruptor to give them something to do once Z establishes air dominance. What's your argument for how mutalisks forgot how to evolve in general?
Wrong. Broodlords morphed from corruptors for the whole beta.
Edit: And I just morphed to a zergling from this post.
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Makes no difference. And actually broodlords were originally brood gaurdians.
...I know they were originally Brood Guardians. Brood Guardians had both a different model, a different high rez model, and a different attack from the Guardians of the original game. While the units fulfill a similar role, they required noticeable design beyond switching a data field. In fact, 2 models, while the attack needed no change because it already beared little resemblance to the original.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080628184848/starcraft/images/b/b6/SwarmGuardian_SC2_Game3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090523192254/starcraft/images/3/30/BroodLord_SC2_DevGame1.jpg)
I am saying that the Lurker would have to undergo a similar process, and the resulting unit would only be similar to the Lurker, not the Lurker, which would mostly explain and justify its removal prior to the games release, and not really be productive to the purpose of this map :/.
On August 11 2010 13:36 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 10:56 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 10:53 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:On August 11 2010 07:24 Archerofaiur wrote: wtf does that have to do with anything. On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work The funny part is it wouldnt even really require a redesign. They didnt change the broodlord model when they changed it from mutalisk to corruptor evo. Thats because broodlords weren't in SC1. Broodlords evolved from mutalisks for most of the beta. This was moved to the corruptor to give them something to do once Z establishes air dominance. What's your argument for how mutalisks forgot how to evolve in general?
You're missing the point. I'm saying that the Lurker was such an iconic unit that drastically altering its theme while completely preserving its mechanics and graphics would be extremely jarring, and something blizzard would ideally avoid. In case of the Broodlord, the unit did not exist in SC1, the current BL only a passing resemblance to the old guardian, and has a relatively different, though similar function, one that certainly required quite a bit of design. Practically, if blizzard wanted the Lurker to come out of the Roach, they would make a new unit that appears different, and has a new differentiating mechanic, as well as being called something else.
Just like what they did with the Brood Lord.
It isn't an argument about lore. The fact that mutas forgot to evolve is no more of an issue then anything else. Its about iconography.
Wrong. Broodlords morphed from corruptors for the whole beta.
Edit: And I just morphed to a zergling from this post.
Think he meant Alpha.
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On August 11 2010 13:55 Half wrote:
You're missing the point. I'm saying that the Lurker was such an iconic unit that drastically altering its theme while completely preserving its mechanics and graphics would be extremely jarring, and something blizzard would ideally avoid. In case of the Broodlord, the unit did not exist in SC1, the current BL only a passing resemblance to the old guardian, and has a relatively different, though similar function, one that certainly required quite a bit of design. Practically, if blizzard wanted the Lurker to come out of the Roach, they would make a new unit that appears different, and has a new differentiating mechanic, as well as being called something else.
Just like what they did with the Brood Lord.
Basically all they would have to do is change the name. The Lurker already has a different model from SC1. So basicallly they call it the "Spiker" or something.
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Zergling4life
Can you just explain me fast how to add the lurker , i cant find the "morph to lurker" for the hydralisk... or just addes some lurker for 8 players or 6 players map
megaton, forbiden planet, the bio lab, dirt site, typhon, moonson
i want to play big map with lurker
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- add sc2.campaign dependencies to map
- add hydra->lurker morph to the hydras ablitites
- add a button for the morph on the command card
(that way you can morph your hydras if you switch off the lurker den requirement)
otherwise you have to do the same ability/command card thing with the hydra den (and maybe work a little on the animations - not to sure about that because i worked on a roach-lurker map)
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On August 12 2010 03:08 Archerofaiur wrote:
Basically all they would have to do is change the name. The Lurker already has a different model from SC1. So basicallly they call it the "Spiker" or something.
I'd vote for "Ravager", rolls nicely off the tongue, Roach to Ravager and has a great definition. Personally for me, I would be fine without the rename and it just morphing from roaches, the retcon isn't really a problem were not exactly dealing with lore here.
I havent had a chance to test the map yet, but I think they could be useful in controlling the opponents push speed giving you more time to tech/prepare
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On August 13 2010 04:53 SnOw. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:08 Archerofaiur wrote:
Basically all they would have to do is change the name. The Lurker already has a different model from SC1. So basicallly they call it the "Spiker" or something.
I'd vote for "Ravager", rolls nicely off the tongue, Roach to Ravager and has a great definition. Personally for me, I would be fine without the rename and it just morphing from roaches, the retcon isn't really a problem were not exactly dealing with lore here. I havent had a chance to test the map yet, but I think they could be useful in controlling the opponents push speed giving you more time to tech/prepare
Isnt "Ravager" already a rank for zerg?
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On August 13 2010 04:53 SnOw. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:08 Archerofaiur wrote:
Basically all they would have to do is change the name. The Lurker already has a different model from SC1. So basicallly they call it the "Spiker" or something.
I'd vote for "Ravager", rolls nicely off the tongue, Roach to Ravager and has a great definition. Personally for me, I would be fine without the rename and it just morphing from roaches, the retcon isn't really a problem were not exactly dealing with lore here. I havent had a chance to test the map yet, but I think they could be useful in controlling the opponents push speed giving you more time to tech/prepare
Just call it rekrul. Oh no wait. That name's taken.
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On August 11 2010 08:51 apriores wrote:
Until Zergling4life will put this mod on EU server, I have made a version not so "professionally" balanced, but for fun.
Map name: Blistering Sands - SC1 Units.
It contains:
Protoss: 1 more unit = Scout;
Zerg: 2 more units = Lurker & Scourge;
Terran: 1 more unit = Goliath
And some units replaced:
Hellion replaced with Vulture
Raven replaced with Science Vessel
EMP Round moved on Science Vessel
Lurker Den requires Lair.
For now, I checked and re-set all stats for Multiplayer only for Terran.
Zerg and Protoss could have some stats from Campaign dependencies. If you find something wrong, PM me, please.
I repeat: I made it for fun, to play with my friends. If you want something better/balanced, you should wait for Lurker mode or lets hope some teams will work for a SC1 Remake.
Sorry to barge in like that, but man, I've been trying for so long to understand how to add the Science Vessel.
It seems like I can add and use any campaign units, but the Science Vessel just won't show up even if its set like all others.
I've had this problems for over a week now. Its killing me. Can you just tell me how you did it?
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You need to change the dependencies. To do so, either make a new map and change the dependencies to campaign on the "create a new map" window
or
On a map that already exists: File -> Depencies -> Add Standard -> Check all the boxes
It should do it...
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Thats not the problem... Everyone answers me something as if I was stupid (and I can't blame them), but the problem is way beyond that. I already enabled everything, I have most campaign units... its just -the science vessel- that doesn't show up.
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On August 14 2010 14:51 SFJake wrote:
Thats not the problem... Everyone answers me something as if I was stupid (and I can't blame them), but the problem is way beyond that. I already enabled everything, I have most campaign units... its just -the science vessel- that doesn't show up.
Right now i just can think of 3 things that might help you...
1. I somehow had the same problem that campaign stuff didn't show up and solved this by moving up the campaign dependency to the top of the list
2. If that didn't help perhaps the train ability for the vessel is broken and either needs to be fixed or completly recreated
3. If even the ability works the last thing that comes to my mind is that maybe the "Event +" list isn't working the way it should and because of that the model of the vessel simply doesn't show up. Solution would be to make a new one or you find the one that's broken and repair it.
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Can the people who is trying to make a sc1 mod please take it to a separate thread? I know you mean well and all, but this thread/map is about zerg, and what it would do to the game if they had the lurker added, since it's a fact that zerg doesn't have as many units as the other races, and I guess this thread was done as a response to the current discussion on "is zerg underpowered?" and to see if this would fix anything. Adding firebats, vultures, goliaths and science vessels to the game won't "fix" the zerg. Thanks.
On a more related note:
I know this has been discussed a bit, but I've yet to see a clear definition of what exactly the niche role the lurker would fill. Don't get me wrong, I love the lurker, but if it really is out shined by Roach burrow harass and ultralisks splash vs armored units, then what do we need it for? I guess you could argue that it would function as a good transition from roaches if your opponent got armored units with anti armor damage themselves (tanks, immortals etc.) and once they get detection, you move towards the late game ultras or broodlords
On August 10 2010 04:13 Archerofaiur wrote:
On the topic of lore, I checked in the Broodwar manual and it only mentions just once that the Lurkers are "bred from the hydralisk strain". It doesnt say specifically that it was an assimilated from a hydralisk-related breed (like how the gaurdian was the mutalisk nesting form.
As much as it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to change the lurker from a hydralisk to roach evolution its wouldnt even require a real retcon. They could just put the lines "Kerrigan's new breed of lurkers are morphed from roach DNA. "
On August 11 2010 10:09 Half wrote:wtf does that have to do with anything. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 07:56 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 11 2010 07:32 Zergling4life wrote:
LOL @ poster above.... Wuts so funny? Blizzard has always been willing to change/add/rework lore for gameplay. Gameplay first. Those are TWO NEW UNITS. The only thing they retconned is the muta not morphing into anything. I guess the only similarity is one of them playing similar to guardians. This isn't a unit that "plays similar" to lurkers, its the lurker. We're not asking if the Zerg could theoretically use a "stationary defensive unit". We're asking if the lurker that was removed could be refit into the game. If the only way the Lurker could be put into the game was if it evolved from the roach. Gameplay does come first, but Acetic is not ignored in favor of it. it would require a name change, a redesign of the unit by the development team to change the "flavor", similar to the one given to the guardian->Brolord, and artistic modifications, especially for the high rez portrait. That's a noticeable amount of extra effort and work This would justify pretty well it being scrapped before the final release, and maybe reimplemented in the expansion. The question posed here is "could a variation of the lurker that was removed be refit into the game", not "could zerg theoretically use semi-stationary defense with completely variable stats and skills"
Saying that the brood lord is a new unit is just completely lollerific. The only difference between the guardian is the name, and the fact that they have broodlings. They look almost identical and have the exact same role. It bugs me a lot that brood lords don't mutate from mutalisk, but they obviously don't for balancing reasons.
The line IS crossed. Deal with it.
P.S. Also, how would you explain that roaches now have Hydralisks old attack, and no longer spew acid but now shoot darts instead? My answer? I'd say it's similar to how guardians now shoot broodlings, which is why they are called brood lords.
Roaches seem to be a burrow focused unit, so to me it would make perfect sense if they evolved into lurkers as longs as corruptors morph into guar.. ehm brood lords...
P.P.S. In regards to Blizzard not changing things because of lore because of balance/gameplay, I need only refer to WoW where every race can almost be every class and every class can almost fill any role now. So much for that "line".
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what there's a whole sc1 mod with defilers etc? sounds awesome, please create own thread!
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i don't think there's a mod with defilers because there are no defiler models in the campaign data (afaik)
but you could change another unit to give it the defiler spells - though they would have to create dark swarm because it doesnt exist jet
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there was a noob playing spinecrawler lurker D and he had a shitload of lurkers. quote
"why the bloody fuck aren't they attacking!!!! argh!!!!!!"
lol
but when they are above ground, they, they show subterranean tentacle attack. a little odd, sorta like if burrowed lings had their claws attack.
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I definately approve of this thread...
Man does Zerg need the Lurker and Scourge...
It's not even funny...that Lurker video pretty much puts Terran mech in it's place...well placed Lurkers can decimate an army...
Scourge? Shiiiiiiit! I'd run that into a massive pile of overlords in ZvZ any day just for the hilarity...no more bunched up overlors in ZvZ... :D
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wow didn't think all this would be possible, these custom sc1 unit maps are gunna be so popular if done correctly, thanks alot guys
roach into lurker sounds alot better, unless hydralisk den became tier 1, better than the shit what tunnelling claws is.
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lol i wonder if i can get my friend to play this with me without realising what it is :D
SURPRISE LURKER
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"i have sinned version 2.0"
I guess the european sc2 players might be happy to know that i finished a custom map of lost temple and uploaded it today. It includes almost every singleplayer campaign unit you couldn't use for multiplayer.
I know that a lot of these units are overpowered but no one forces you to use them if you don't want to test or give opinions on how to balance them (if possible).
I'll edit the map-name tomorrow because i wanted to test it tonight with a friend of mine for bugs that probably will occur en masse.
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I am really sorry for necroing this thread, but given the three day trial period, this was the best I could do.
I am attempting to do work on a balance mod for SC2. The focus will be to add options between the races rather than taking them away.
Among the things that I am attempting to do is add the lurker. I have not been able to find it in any of the unit lists. I also cannot locate the Lurker Mod on the Map editor.
Can anyone help me?
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P.S. Also, how would you explain that roaches now have Hydralisks old attack, and no longer spew acid but now shoot darts instead? My answer? I'd say it's similar to how guardians now shoot broodlings, which is why they are called brood lords.
The attack is identical lore wise. They are both "Acid Spines". In the first game, the low rez graphic engine prevented making spines that looked visceral and realistic. In the original build of SC1 they shot spines, but it looked bad. All concept art shows Hydralisks shooting spines, not acid.
Roaches do not shoot "spines", they spit Acid, something the hydralisk never did.
Saying that the brood lord is a new unit is just completely lollerific. The only difference between the guardian is the name, and the fact that they have broodlings. They look almost identical and have the exact same role. It bugs me a lot that brood lords don't mutate from mutalisk, but they obviously don't for balancing reasons.
The line IS crossed. Deal with it.
Guardian
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080607183531/starcraft/images/9/9c/Guardian_SC1_GameAnim1.gif)
Broodlord
If you can't see these units are incredibly distinct, then your blind. Even the Queen looks more similar to the old queens high rez model then the Brood lord looks like the Guardian. The only similarity is the general shape.
Similarities-
Vaguely similar silhouette. Both slow flying air units.
Differences-
Guardian has Crab like appendages, Broodlord doesn't
Guardian looks like flying crab, while Broodlord has a more flowing, manta-ray like shape.
Guardian has crab like mouth, Broodlords appear to hav ea lamprey shaped mouth.
Guardian doesnt have wings. Broodlord does.
Now am I saying that nothing can evolve from a roach that vaguely resembles a lurker? No. But it would have to, at least, have a substantially different design, and modified attack mechanics.
In fact, we already have a precedent here. When Blizzard made the "Swarm Guardian" morph from corruptors, we saw a complete artistic design and mechanical redesign (Swarm Guardians used to shoot wasp like flyers as opposed to the current Broodlings)
Swarm Guardians are the actual successor to Guardians, it is very evident in there model design.
![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711051033/starcraft/images/1/1b/Guardian_SC1_Art1.jpg)
As you can see, the Mouth is identical, as is the shape of the frontal segment, and the position of the appendages. The primary difference is that the Swarm Guardian has an elongated back, but the rest is identical.
If the Lurker would morph from a roach, it would require a similar unit redesign to no longer resemble the SC1 lurker, not to mention a gameplay redesign and a new high rez model+lore. A considerable amount of work.
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Basically all they would have to do is change the name. The Lurker already has a different model from SC1. So basicallly they call it the "Spiker" or something.
Like when they changed the Swarm Guardian into the Brood lord right? All they did was change the name?
No, wait, thats not what happened at all. They changed the model, and the lore, (and the game mechanic was already changed).
Plus, the SC2 lurker still closely resembles the SC1 lurker.
![[image loading]](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100307215813/starcraft/images/thumb/0/0e/Lurker_SC1_Art1.jpg/180px-Lurker_SC1_Art1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100812215608/starcraft/images/thumb/c/c4/Lurker_SC2_DevRend2.jpg/200px-Lurker_SC2_DevRend2.jpg)
You'd have a hard case to make arguing these two did not closely resemble each other. And even then the difference between them is less then the difference between the Guardian and Swarm Guardian, yet the Swarm Guardian still had a art redesign when being converted into the brood lord. The aesthetics design behind the Lurker makes absolutely no sense applied to the dark colors of the Roach.
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United States7166 Posts
whatever happened to this mod? zergling4life said he would add the updated lurker at lair tech ..did he just give up? or did it finish and i just didnt know
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Try taking away baneling. Let's see what Zergs can do with only the real stuff!!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i34.tinypic.com/2m3flso.gif)
