Hey guys, so I am wondering and I am sure other TL community members are as well. I have lately talked to some of the top Zerg players that are now switching to different races to play in ladder but still will play Zerg in tournaments because TvZ is so difficult at the moment unless you are a pro like idra. Who by the way told me the other day that playing Zerg is bad for your blood pressure lol but lets be serious for a second. Idra is one of the best Zergs out there in the world and having watched his tournament games he still loses some matches to terran players. Now lets be realistic idra is a TRUE pro which means he prob practices more then most of the terran players do that he plays against and so his matches should not be as close as they are sometimes imo. So to say TvZ is balanced atm cause idra can make it look easy at times is not a good enough reason for me. Ok but back to the main thing how many players in diamond near the top have also switched races from zerg to protoss or terran because of the ever climbing popularity in terran on the US server making TvZ occur even more often.
Poll: Did you switch from Zerg due to the climbing popularity in terran?
I still play Zerg and haven't switched because of terran. (487)
79%
I now play another race because of the popularity in terran. (131)
21%
618 total votes
Your vote: Did you switch from Zerg due to the climbing popularity in terran?
(Vote): I still play Zerg and haven't switched because of terran. (Vote): I now play another race because of the popularity in terran.
EDIT: After reading the thread I have realized a general consensus that basically to win you have to be faster and better then your opponent when playing ZvT as zerg. So i ask the following poll as well,
Poll: Is it fair that to play Zerg in ZvT you must have higher apm/skills?
It is not fair to have a race that requires more apm/skill to play (54)
57%
It is fair to have a race that requires more apm/skill to play (41)
43%
95 total votes
Your vote: Is it fair that to play Zerg in ZvT you must have higher apm/skills?
(Vote): It is fair to have a race that requires more apm/skill to play (Vote): It is not fair to have a race that requires more apm/skill to play
Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
lol i've switched from terran to zerg because i thought zerg was so overpowered. most of my losses come from tvz so sick... now i play zerg!@!! i lose more but pretty sure ill get better!
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
A zerg buff is not going to happen. And even if it is we'll see the ultra buffed moar, instead of addressing the issue of Z getting fucking roflstomped by T with a mid-game push.
I'm actually thinking about switching full-time to P. They only have problems with cattlebruisers it seems, not with the whole terran arsenal.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
Still? Can you show the top players for asian server because I thought people would caught on by now.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
Not really... Just because something was true several months ago doesn't mean it will be true infinitely.
I play Zerg still. Don't really want to change to Terran and then for Terran to be nerfed into oblivion.
If something isn't done to fix Terran in future patches then I will switch to play Terran though. I'm not a win whore but it is frustrating playing Terran everygame and have to deal with the same lame shit constantly.
>< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
im at like 620 pts and its sooooo frustrating to out play a terran and still lose some how. I have no problem getting beat by a terran if i play like shit but come on lol every race should be able to be played at the same skill level not Zerg require super skill to play cuz terran is pwning it atm :-D
I went from Zerg to Random, but it was more based around a growing interest in Protoss and an urge to better learn all the match ups. I still would say Zerg is my best/favorite race.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
My major gripe is that I have to work my ass off to win against a Terran player while the Terran player can just a-move with their mech army that hard counters EVERYTHING I have.
lol Limenade just because you're bad at ZvT and dodge me all the time doesn't mean everyone has trouble with it! That said, I've been trying some TvZ and it's such an awesome matchup to play. Wayyyy better than ZvT.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
My major gripe is that I have to work my ass off to win against a Terran player while the Terran player can just a-move with their mech army that hard counters EVERYTHING I have.
You mean "macro your ass off" and then a-move your army while casting 2 abilities? Yeah.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Amber[LighT] wrote: [...] Out of curiosity is there a specific reason all these TvZ threads are appearing today? Is it a holiday or something?
Some people are telling me that the server is down or they are having issues. Just people playing out rage I guess.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Amber[LighT] wrote: Where's the "I know Terran is still imbalanced but I still play Zerg anyway because I know Blizzard will eventually fix this obvious issue" choice?
Out of curiosity is there a specific reason all these TvZ threads are appearing today? Is it a holiday or something?
It's a coordinated move by all the zerg and protoss players that are fed up with Terran. We're trying to win this argument the WoW way: cry imba to the heavens so loud, it eventually gets nerfed. If you want to join our resistance group I can PM you the details of when and where and how we'll strike.
edit: of course I'll need proof you're not terrascum. Screenshots, account details, and live interview. Yes, I am trolling because I can't log onto EU servers -.-
I still play Zerg, but I'm about 5 buttrapes from Terran from going Protoss. The amount of shit they can unload on me while I attempt to tech to units that can actually do something is frustrating, all the while they sit behind an impenetrable wall.
On August 05 2010 02:51 ScvReady wrote: I play random and just got promoted to diamond and I dont really mind zvt. But dont get me started on zvz. grrrr...
ZvZ is my easiest match up.
Almost everyone goes for banelings ---> muta without scouting. I just make 50 food of roaches and face roll them. Sometimes lose games to muta all ins on big maps but not very often, win about 80% ZvZ.
played zerg in beta, but switched to terran on release day.
i didn't switch because i think that terran is overpowered. i just love the variety of options and viable units i have as a terran. and reapers, hellions and banshees are just kickass units to harass your opponent with, which i love to do.
I still play Zerg. I am not a sponsored pro-gamer and would never switch races due to balance ^^ I can only ever play the evil awesomeness that is the spiny acid-spewing base-backstabbing Zerg.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Amber[LighT] wrote: Where's the "I know Terran is still imbalanced but I still play Zerg anyway because I know Blizzard will eventually fix this obvious issue" choice?
Out of curiosity is there a specific reason all these TvZ threads are appearing today? Is it a holiday or something?
It's actually been pretty consistently persistent this entire week.
On August 05 2010 02:53 Amber[LighT] wrote: Where's the "I know Terran is still imbalanced but I still play Zerg anyway because I know Blizzard will eventually fix this obvious issue" choice?
Out of curiosity is there a specific reason all these TvZ threads are appearing today? Is it a holiday or something?
It's a coordinated move by all the zerg and protoss players that are fed up with Terran. We're trying to win this argument the WoW way: cry imba to the heavens so loud, it eventually gets nerfed. If you want to join our resistance group I can PM you the details of when and where and how we'll strike.
edit: of course I'll need proof you're not terrascum. Screenshots, account details, and live interview. Yes, I am trolling because I can't log onto EU servers -.-
On August 05 2010 02:53 Amber[LighT] wrote: Where's the "I know Terran is still imbalanced but I still play Zerg anyway because I know Blizzard will eventually fix this obvious issue" choice?
Out of curiosity is there a specific reason all these TvZ threads are appearing today? Is it a holiday or something?
It's actually been pretty consistently persistent this entire week.
I've been playing zerg ever since I first saw Yellow play. So there's no chance that I'll be not playing zerg any time soon. In fact I actually like that most people think that zerg are UP. That means less zvz's in the ladder and less zerg competition :D
TvZ is fun though I must admit. That is, if you don't go full blown turtle mech.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
A zerg buff is not going to happen. And even if it is we'll see the ultra buffed moar, instead of addressing the issue of Z getting fucking roflstomped by T with a mid-game push.
I'm actually thinking about switching full-time to P. They only have problems with cattlebruisers it seems, not with the whole terran arsenal.
We have to tech up to Collossi or Templar, then do some research, to counter a t1/1.25 ball of infantry.
I repeat, we have to make either a 700/600 investment, or a 650/750 investment to counter the first two units that Terran gets.
On August 05 2010 02:52 Saracen wrote: lol Limenade just because you're bad at ZvT and dodge me all the time doesn't mean everyone has trouble with it! That said, I've been trying some TvZ and it's such an awesome matchup to play. Wayyyy better than ZvT.
for a second i read that post and was like WTFFFFFF then i read who it was and laughed out loud hahaha but man im like 70-40 atm with i think 30/40 of my losses are from terran O_o
Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Yes, because teching with the race that takes by far the longest to actually tech up while also having the least early game defense and least early game harassment options is such an amazing option.
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
I'm probably an idiot, but i'm still sticking with Zerg and hoping for some kind of reaction from blizzard. I don't know how long i will hold as zerg since some situations and many builds counter the Zerg so much it's not even fun to play.
The most bothering thing to me, even worst than the ZvT balance is the ZvZ and how it goes, it's just so pathetic that each time i'm facing a Zerg, it feel like puking.
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
if you go brood lords you always have corruptors to back them up. even if you didn't you could use hydras to own the vikings. how are they having a lot of stimmed marauders if he's talking about beating terran mech?
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
if you go brood lords you always have corruptors to back them up. even if you didn't you could use hydras to own the vikings. how are they having a lot of stimmed marauders if he's talking about beating terran mech?
Vikings > Corruptors, and Hydralisks aren't a very great counter to an air unit that's countering your air unit. That means that you are essentially stuck to attacking via ground paths with your Broodlords so they can be covered by Hydralisks (that are also really slow if there's no creep and get raped by Tanks).
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
Maybe they should add the lurker back in... when I play zerg I can't figure out what beats maruaders... mutas? But then 1 thor... gg
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
what divison r u in and how many pts do u got and whats ur record? plz post this if u gonna make a statement like this
Still play zerg but seriously considering switching over to Terran if blizz doesn't do something about it soon. So frustrating that I have to go 7 base to 2 base just to macro barely enough to beat the mech ball.
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
what divison r u in and how many pts do u got and whats ur record? plz post this if u gonna make a statement like this
im a terra in platin and my worst matchup is tvz and 90% of my tvz wins i dont hear a gg i hear "terra is imba", i hope for you they never change t or z because than theres nothing left you can complain about. but im sure if you switch to t and loose a tvt you will say: "t is so imba"
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
what divison r u in and how many pts do u got and whats ur record? plz post this if u gonna make a statement like this
im a terra in platin and my worst matchup is tvz and 90% of my tvz wins i dont hear a gg i hear "terra is imba", i hope for you they never change t or z because than theres nothing left you can complain about. but im sure if you switch to t and loose a tvt you will say: "t is so imba"
T v Z may be imbalanced at higher levels... I don't know!!! But for the Terran mech to be ''invicible'', it relly has to be done in a top notch way, which is not the case even in the low/mid diamond Terran play so...... Still, playing Zerg is kick ass.... love it!!!!!!
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
if you go brood lords you always have corruptors to back them up. even if you didn't you could use hydras to own the vikings. how are they having a lot of stimmed marauders if he's talking about beating terran mech?
Vikings > Corruptors, and Hydralisks aren't a very great counter to an air unit that's countering your air unit. That means that you are essentially stuck to attacking via ground paths with your Broodlords so they can be covered by Hydralisks (that are also really slow if there's no creep and get raped by Tanks).
well by the time he can kill your corruptors and start firing at your broods his ground army is completely destroyed and you're recreating your army much faster with all of your larva.
I'm not a top player by any means but I switched from terran in beta to zerg at launch due to the fact that I hate, hate, HATE TvT and it's been interesting so far. Right on the cusp of moving to diamond with 75 games as zerg under my belt. I get stomped by the mid-game timing push by most terrans running mech (due to inexperience) but have been holding my own in ZvZ and ZvP.
I LOVE MY ZERGIES ILL NEVER SWITCH. But i will stop playing sc2 if they don't fucking fix this blatant fucking imbalance, there's no room for fucking up even the slightest vs any competent terran while he can make 100x mistakes and still come out on top.
i was going to switch to protoss from playing zerg all beta but was against it due to the amaount of time i put into practicing zerg match-ups and strats etc
I am in diamond with zerg and I never played toss/terran in SC2 at all so I can't really change my race unless I go for custom games or lose my rank until ~silver/gold I think.
On August 05 2010 04:00 t3tsubo wrote: isnt the popularity of terran due to them being the race you play in the campaign?
Maybe in lower leagues. Like, if you just pick up the game and you start out with the campaign, you'll probably be more inclined to pick Terran when you hit the ladders. But that doesn't explain the lack of Zergs at the top.
On August 05 2010 04:08 Enragemana wrote: Zerg players show watch Check, he has some videos on HDstarcraft. He plays one base and easily counters/beats terran players.
He's kind of relying on the Terran to do a 1 base all-in attack. Also, this is a huge generalization: most of the time he doesn't go 1 base. You could just as easily say "Terran players should watch Ensnare. He goes fast reapers and easily counters/beats Zerg players," which doesn't make either statement accurate.
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
Ultras will get decimated by stimmed marauders, and brood lords get destroyed by range 9 vikings.
Maybe they should add the lurker back in... when I play zerg I can't figure out what beats maruaders... mutas? But then 1 thor... gg
I've been having the same issue against early mech pushes that take it easy on the tanks until later (and then mix in vikings). I think the issue now is that I'm gun-shy when it comes to mech because I still have nightmares about losing 50-100 supply of hydras to tanks without taking any out.
In all seriousness though, I feel like I need to start incorporating hydralisks into my unit mixes. I've lost a couple of games that, in retrospect, I probably could have won if I had built a hydra den around when/before I threw down a spire.
Early on, if a terran pushes with mostly thors/hellions and marines, you should counter with roaches. If they incorporate marauders, it seems you need to incorporate hydralisks to actually do damage while roaches tank the hellions/marauders -- the only reason to ever not get hydras should be when the terran has got 4+ tanks already sieged up.
The terran can't have his entire tech tree at critical mass on the battlefield at all times -- I feel like you have to take advantage of inject larvae late game and just keep switching from one tech extreme to the other until you contain and then break him. Ideally.
If you're talking late game, speedling/ultra/infestors will stop marauders (FG to stop stim micro, speedlings to pin them down and surround/take shots and ultras to kill them fast).
I have been playing random lately because of how hard i find zvt, and believe me it has been the best thing, I am really enjoying the diversity. Not only that but i believe it will make me a better zerg player in the long run. I can already see the weakness/loopholes of the other races.
I am mainly a solo ladder player, but practicing random on team/custom games.
Played Zerg all Beta long but changes to Toss at Launch because it's just refreshingly easy. I sometimes still play Zerg because it's the race i like the most.. but it's often very frustrating.
I know terran is imba vs zerg, but some people are just exadurating so hard. No terrans have skill anymore, its become terran craft and even protosses I play just give me a load of BM because im terran and that MU isnt imbalanced either :/
I will never abandon the cute and rollie-pollie banelings.
I think Zerg has to be the most creative race, and ever win is hard-fought and earned. No Zerg match-up is boring. ZvP is fantastic, ZvZ is micro intensive and a requires a fantastic sense of timing. ZvT can be very difficult, but is win-able with good harassment, flanks, and a bit of luck. I can understand people's frustrations, especially versus T, but its overall always a fun experience. I can't see myself switching.
On August 05 2010 03:04 IKenshinI wrote: Only terran I've lost to as zerg were ones with medvac drops on my mineral line with marines/tanks. Muta/ling wrecks early mech (or give you the map control to expand till you get ultralisks/broodlords). I don't see how people are having so many issues lol
what divison r u in and how many pts do u got and whats ur record? plz post this if u gonna make a statement like this
im a terra in platin and my worst matchup is tvz and 90% of my tvz wins i dont hear a gg i hear "terra is imba", i hope for you they never change t or z because than theres nothing left you can complain about. but im sure if you switch to t and loose a tvt you will say: "t is so imba"
O.o play what is fun for you, being consistent playing one race will make u better in the end (i guess) playing the flavour of the month race probably wont.
I've always played zerg, ever since SC1, I just like the little buggers I don't care about which race is stronger, it will get balanced out eventually. My only problem with ZvT is a fast starport or two, other than that I have a lot of fun playing ZvT.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
Not really, Zerg is in clear disadvantage in essentially ANY SERVER. the statistics now is: Top 100 in the world Terran=42 Zerg=25 Protoss=31 Random=2
36 from US:Terran=15 Zerg=9 Protoss=11 Random=1 32 from EU:Terran=14 Zerg=7 Protoss=11 Random=0 32 from KR: Terran=13 Zerg=9 Protoss=9 Random=1
Top 1000 player in the word: Terran=300 Zerg=240 Protoss=401 Random=59 406 from US: Terran=129 Zerg=87 Protoss=162 Random=28 419 from EU: Terran=119 Zerg=114 Protoss=165 Random=21 175 from KR:Terran=52 Zerg=39 Protoss=74 Random=10
Your logic fail hard.. Something true a few month (and A FEW IMPORTANT PATCH TO ZERG) ago doesn't mean it is still true now. As far as I know, a few Korean pro gamer already switched from Zerg to Terran.
Got bored from sieging Siegetanks and doing TvT all the time. The fact that seemingly everyone plays Terran started to annoy me so I decided to switch, but Protoss was way too bland.
On August 05 2010 04:51 Kare wrote: I know terran is imba vs zerg, but some people are just exadurating so hard. No terrans have skill anymore, its become terran craft and even protosses I play just give me a load of BM because im terran and that MU isnt imbalanced either :/
It doesn't help that everyone and their mother was crying imba the entire beta, and Blizzards response was to keep buffing Terran, while giving them a couple of largely inconsequential nerfs. The only one with real repercussions, the siege damage nerf, mostly affects TvT.
I play random, but zerg are my favourite. Perhaps the fact that I kind of suck makes my opinions worthless, but I don't see any enormous balance problems in the game as is.
It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
I haven't had too many issues with Terran and I've made it into diamond as Zerg. Yeah, if you a-move into a terran mech ball with roaches and hydras you'll be melted, and some -maps- favor terran more than they do zerg, but as a whole the match up isn't too bad. There are plenty of counters to a turtling terran, or a slow push across the map, they're just not as simple as "Build this, attack ball" (though ultras are pretty close).
If any changes are made they'll be subtle, zerg are pretty strong as is.
Interesting the way the poll says "rising popularity in Terran" and not power--by all counts it seems that only in top-top diamond does Terran actually come out on top for popularity. If you're going by popularity, Protoss is (and, IIRC throughout beta always was) the way to go.
On August 05 2010 06:18 tehemperorer wrote: It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
On August 05 2010 06:18 tehemperorer wrote: It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
I wish people would start getting temp-banned for continuing to promote this idea that all zerg players are too dumb to figure out what to do in tvz.
You know, personally, as diamond league random, I think Zerg is a lot easier to play then Terran. Its so formulaic, much more tactical, much less strategic.
With terran a single bad tanks siege and its game over. My winrate with zerg is 70%, 55% toss, 45% terran.
Imo, terran might be the most "powerful race", but from my experience its also the most difficult to execute properly. I mean, really, you can get away with no more then 2 control groups for your forces as zerg. Any more then that just feels like showing off and wasting apm unless your really good at tactical movements. With terran lategame you basically need 4 control groups minimum just for basic control.
On August 05 2010 06:18 tehemperorer wrote: It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
I wish people would start getting temp-banned for continuing to promote this idea that all zerg players are too dumb to figure out what to do in tvz.
It's even worse in the official forums. Apparently, Terran are beacons of creativity, while Protoss and Zerg are kids who keep running into a wall.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
Really? Zerg owning the Asia server? I am looking at the SE-Asia top 30 rank now and on it we have:
On August 05 2010 06:18 tehemperorer wrote: It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
You are wrong IMO. What you are saying are true at the highest level of skill most foreigners will never be able to reach. What is bugging me so much about the poor design of Starcraft 2 is that at any level but top diamond the Zerg are not skilled enough to beat a similar skilled terran, or protoss.
The issue is not as big as if there were imbalances at the pro level, but it will water down the game if at any level below top diamond there are glaring imbalances that skew up the player statistics. Any noob that start playing Zerg in Starcraft 2 will instead of just quit hopefully play protoss instead, but they could quit aswell.
In Starcraft 1 there were these imbalances at D level for Terran players versus Protoss. Protoss was so much easier to play than Terran that at that level we had total roflstomping. In SC2 this has been taken to the extreme, but instead of Terran being the hard race compared to Protoss at lower levels, Zerg are now ridiculously hard compared to the Protoss (that is even easier than in SC1) that it almost feels like two different games playing Z instead of P.
EDIT: Again as I am reading through your post, I must make it plain why this is a problem:
In SC1 the small imbalances Terran had a lower levels were just a spice to the game, but in SC2 it has gone too far. The Zerg shouldn't need to be at triple the APM and always walking the thin line between dying, scouting, flanking, and expanding vs the other two races that at that level doesn't even have to scout, but just build a wall, make 2 collossi with some stalkers, control group on "1" and then just sit by and watch. Actually, IMO Terran are not as bad as Protoss, since some of the harder mechanics of SC1 Terran are still in this game.
i still play zerg cause i like them, they're kinda boring and needs changes to become as good as the other races.
i'm still finding myself playing EVEN matches against opponents who prove themselves to be A LOT worse than me. seriously, meeting 20 APM terrans who masses tanks thors and bioballs and just BARELY winning is kinda annoying.
i could switch to protoss, i actually play them quite good and with some practice i could be just as good with them as with the zerg, i've thought about it a lot of times. and to be honest, if blizzard does not fix the state that zerg are in right now, i'll surely be looking at a future switch to the toss.
I'm finding zvt a lot of fun these days. Better than the days of terran being allowed to make marauders and maraders only or I mass roach or roach/baneling and kill you.
Remember when jinro went like pure mech and got owned by mass baneling roach just because they're both really really good for 1 supply?
Not to say tanks aren't a real bitch to deal with though >_<
I play zerg still, but only really enjoy ZvP ZvZ is a total crapfest, and ZvT I just baneling bust every game and hope for the best...
I've tried to play vs T straight up and been completely demolished over and over by different retarded strats that can't be reliably scouted correctly...
Pushes with one type, or a combo of 2-3 types all at different times, where if you magicly prepare for it correctly you have a balanced fight, but if you don't have the EXACT right combo of units to fight him off, or you mismicro once with the correct units, then you get overrun. All while if you decimate his forces, you are still not even in the lead, just keeping par and made the game go on a little longer...
I'm not playing zerg until ZvZ is fixed and roaches are buffed.
ZvZ is horrible and has been for a long time. ZvP is ok maybe favoring zerg since protoss is still favoring colossus based play. As I've said many times, Protoss needs to start going immortal templar to contest an ultralisk transition. ZvT is pretty meh still. Maybe introducing a completely new map pool will help but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. I've actually been doing better in this matchup making slight alterations in my opening build.
The reason I think that non-top-tier zerg are having such a massively hard time with other players of their skill level playing other races is because our macro mechanic is so unforgiving, while the other races have a LARGE buffer where they can forget about it and come back to it without falling behind. If it is expected for balance that a zerg player spawns larva EVERY time it's up, then the top level zergs will be on par, but every other zerg will always be behind. While if its balanced that you don't need to keep up 100% with spawn larva to be on par with other races, then zergs at the top tier will start steamrolling again, like they were for a while on the korean server in beta.
The solution is the either make the zerg macro mechanic more forgiving, which I am against, as it removes a major part of the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay. Instead I think they should make the protoss and terran macro mechanics equally unforgiving. Put a CD on mule, and some other kind of limiter on chronoboost will instead give every race this dynamic instead of just zerg.
On August 05 2010 07:38 Shiladie wrote: The reason I think that non-top-tier zerg are having such a massively hard time with other players of their skill level playing other races is because our macro mechanic is so unforgiving, while the other races have a LARGE buffer where they can forget about it and come back to it without falling behind. If it is expected for balance that a zerg player spawns larva EVERY time it's up, then the top level zergs will be on par, but every other zerg will always be behind. While if its balanced that you don't need to keep up 100% with spawn larva to be on par with other races, then zergs at the top tier will start steamrolling again, like they were for a while on the korean server in beta.
The solution is the either make the zerg macro mechanic more forgiving, which I am against, as it removes a major part of the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay. Instead I think they should make the protoss and terran macro mechanics equally unforgiving. Put a CD on mule, and some other kind of limiter on chronoboost will instead give every race this dynamic instead of just zerg.
Also, there's an incredibly steep learning curve in ZvT where Terran has many options for 1 base builds and not only does the Zerg have to properly scout him on time (pre-place overlords/lings and all that jazz), but has to know exactly how to respond to what he sees as well. I can imagine it'd be really frustrating for a lower level Zerg player to learn all of this. By the way Dave, what happened to CPL.
I haven't switched, and I still win about 80% of my vT games. I will say however that I don't let it get to late game, and if I do, I've tried to keep him at one base the entire time.
Late game: T is imba. Early/mid: Z is imba.
Zerglings and banelings are your friends. And early/mid game nydus is beyond powerful. I wish I could pull some testament from my T opponents. Nydus doesn't have to be all in. There are a lot of natural transistions, as long as you've given yourself a 20-24 drone economy with your one base nydus. (this goes for FE protoss as well.
As Haypro said, stay on one base as long as you can. The reason for this is T is *very* mobile early/mid game (hellions/reapers/drop rush/thor drop/banshee rush), while without creep, you aren't. To fight this, staying one base with aggression keeps your mobility at it's maximum. If you'd like some 500 diamond replays of this, pm me.
On August 05 2010 07:38 Shiladie wrote: The reason I think that non-top-tier zerg are having such a massively hard time with other players of their skill level playing other races is because our macro mechanic is so unforgiving, while the other races have a LARGE buffer where they can forget about it and come back to it without falling behind. If it is expected for balance that a zerg player spawns larva EVERY time it's up, then the top level zergs will be on par, but every other zerg will always be behind. While if its balanced that you don't need to keep up 100% with spawn larva to be on par with other races, then zergs at the top tier will start steamrolling again, like they were for a while on the korean server in beta.
The solution is the either make the zerg macro mechanic more forgiving, which I am against, as it removes a major part of the 'easy to learn hard to master' gameplay. Instead I think they should make the protoss and terran macro mechanics equally unforgiving. Put a CD on mule, and some other kind of limiter on chronoboost will instead give every race this dynamic instead of just zerg.
Also, there's an incredibly steep learning curve in ZvT where Terran has many options for 1 base builds and not only does the Zerg have to properly scout him on time (pre-place overlords/lings and all that jazz), but has to know exactly how to respond to what he sees as well. I can imagine it'd be really frustrating for a lower level Zerg player to learn all of this. By the way Dave, what happened to CPL.
I completely agree, the rediculous number of things the terran can do that give an auto-win if not scouted perfectly, and prepared for equally perfectly is just retarded. I'm at the cusp of needing to know it all and how to prepare correctly for all of the options, and when you look at all of the different build varients that can be told apart only by seconds of timing, and can be swapped for little to no cost if they clear out your scout (very easy to do)
Example being if you prep for helions, but end up facing anything but helion, you lose, and it's the same for pretty much all of the terran openers right now.
And sorry about the CPL, I got caught up a fucktonne with work and beta (I sent a PM I believe)
I currently play terran and have done since the start of beta. If I palyed as zerg I deffinately wouldn't switch because I like being the underdog. The best satisfaction in a game comes from winning as the underdog in my opinion.
Alot of you will probably say "well why dont you switch to zerg". I dont like the fact that terran is considered OP but I play terran because thats the race I picked and wanted to play at the start and at the time they were the underdogs. I'm not the best player by a long shot but its taken me the whole of beta to get to where I am now with terran and dont really want to learn a new race just yet. At the end of the day If things are really that bad then blizzard will do smoething about it. Best to stick with what you know.
I switched to terran, because I wanted to play them in bw, but didn't have the mechanics for them, so I was zerg, because I dislike playing as protoss.
Staying strong with zerg, yes i have dabbled in the few odd games as the other races but i just do not know them well enough to play strongly, i really like the zerg macro component and the race as a whole, a few more useable units would be a nice addition though
I think the dominance of Zerg we see on Asian servers is either A. Asian Terrans not playing Terran as well as NA/EU Terrans or B. NA/EU Zergs do not play as well as Asian Zergs. Potentially it is a combination of both variables that generates the trend we see now. I played Zerg early on in the Beta and switched over to Protoss, not because of a perceived imbalance by anyone race but rather that I simply found my ability to play Protoss was more competent than Zerg.
On August 05 2010 08:04 SichuanPanda wrote: I think the dominance of Zerg we see on Asian servers is either A. Asian Terrans not playing Terran as well as NA/EU Terrans or B. NA/EU Zergs do not play as well as Asian Zergs. Potentially it is a combination of both variables that generates the trend we see now. I played Zerg early on in the Beta and switched over to Protoss, not because of a perceived imbalance by anyone race but rather that I simply found my ability to play Protoss was more competent than Zerg.
There is no dominance of Zerg on the Asian servers. Not since patch 12, at least.
I switched but it didn't have anything to do with imbalance, I just realized that all my favorite things from sc1 like lurkers, dark swarm and mutas had been replaced by obnoxious and un-fun things like queens, roaches and... well, mutas are still there but they're no longer fun somehow
On August 05 2010 08:04 SichuanPanda wrote: I think the dominance of Zerg we see on Asian servers is either A. Asian Terrans not playing Terran as well as NA/EU Terrans or B. NA/EU Zergs do not play as well as Asian Zergs. Potentially it is a combination of both variables that generates the trend we see now. I played Zerg early on in the Beta and switched over to Protoss, not because of a perceived imbalance by anyone race but rather that I simply found my ability to play Protoss was more competent than Zerg.
There is no dominance of Zerg on the Asian servers. Not since patch 12, at least.
I think what he's referenceing is what I mentioned in my post, where on the asian server in early beta zergs were just killing everyone, while on NA and EU it was balanced. This was before zerg got nerfed into the ground though. The reason for the split of asian zergs doing so well compared to other areas though, is because koreans focus on the mechanics and repitition, which the zerg spawn larva machanic is perfect for. So they mastered this mechanic before any other areas really did. So blizzard nerfed zerg, so now if you havn't mastered the mechanic you just get rolled over by terrans who can throw down 3 mules at a time with no loss of total income.
On August 05 2010 06:18 tehemperorer wrote: It's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Losing to Terran as Zerg doesn't mean the matchup is imba, it means that as a community, Zerg players still haven't caught on to strong ways to deal with Terran. That's my belief; it is more rewarding to try and think of a clever way to beat T than to complain about the difficulty of it.
You are wrong IMO. What you are saying are true at the highest level of skill most foreigners will never be able to reach. What is bugging me so much about the poor design of Starcraft 2 is that at any level but top diamond the Zerg are not skilled enough to beat a similar skilled terran, or protoss.
The issue is not as big as if there were imbalances at the pro level, but it will water down the game if at any level below top diamond there are glaring imbalances that skew up the player statistics. Any noob that start playing Zerg in Starcraft 2 will instead of just quit hopefully play protoss instead, but they could quit aswell.
In Starcraft 1 there were these imbalances at D level for Terran players versus Protoss. Protoss was so much easier to play than Terran that at that level we had total roflstomping. In SC2 this has been taken to the extreme, but instead of Terran being the hard race compared to Protoss at lower levels, Zerg are now ridiculously hard compared to the Protoss (that is even easier than in SC1) that it almost feels like two different games playing Z instead of P.
EDIT: Again as I am reading through your post, I must make it plain why this is a problem:
In SC1 the small imbalances Terran had a lower levels were just a spice to the game, but in SC2 it has gone too far. The Zerg shouldn't need to be at triple the APM and always walking the thin line between dying, scouting, flanking, and expanding vs the other two races that at that level doesn't even have to scout, but just build a wall, make 2 collossi with some stalkers, control group on "1" and then just sit by and watch. Actually, IMO Terran are not as bad as Protoss, since some of the harder mechanics of SC1 Terran are still in this game.
amen brother! preach it!!! in the mean time toss here i come!
I started playing z in sc2 because I enjoyed them so much in sc/bw. Didn't take long to discover that they aren't the same thing. But I've stuck with them anyway - the game has only been out of beta a few weeks, it's way to early to say.
My decision is probably partly influenced by the fact that I am still a very poor player and so inherent structural weaknesses in particular match-ups aren't the primarily reason for my losses... ><
I play more games as random, with time, partly because of how unstable zerg is (which makes me want to understand the other races better and better). I see how your zerg play improves when you get more games as T and P too, under your belt. Not surprisingly, some of the best zerg players have serious experience with other races as well (IdrA, TLO etc).
I play Zerg, but recently I've been off-racing as Terran (and taking a huge hit to my Win-Loss record as I learned), because their units are much more specialized and their build orders have much more room for diversity.
My worst MU with both races are still the mirror matchups.
Still playing zerg since the beta. Have been rolling with random just to learn about the game itself. Unit interactions, Timings for pushes, all good to experience in how to deal with it when I go back to Zerg. Sort of, looking at the issue from the other side of the fence.
I think that the current standard play is not good against terran. But someone will find something. Each race has its seasons of ups and downs, it happened in BW, too.
Have played Z since I got a beta key back in april. Sticking to it since I like the heavy macro, somewhat dependent on positioning style of play. Heck you even get some micro(not that much though ) with the ultras and banelings. Playing Z just feels right for me vs what I've experienced from playing terran and protoss. The fact that you have to work hard against terran(my worst matchup) and that against P it's somewhat balanced(would say that Z is at an advantage once you get infestors) is just icing on the cake since I like a challenge.
Getting closer to deciding if I want to spend my main time as a zerg or a toss. I love the terran race and units but I just don't care for the feel I get when I play them. The fact terrans are hugely popular (due to campaign familiarity) doesn't come into my decision at all. Then again alot of beta time might have to do with that.
i cannot decide which race suits me best... terran have interesting units but the whole gamestyle doesnt fit me at all. so im currently stuck with zerg and im not influenced by all the terrans that are coming up because of the campaign.
Played zerg in the beta, switched to protoss in phase 2.
I was surprised how much easier it was to get a win in the same league as where I was having trouble as zerg.
Then at the release I switched back to zerg. I played zerg in BW and the whole style just suits me a lot more. Plus I hate terran and protoss building mechanics :3 .
I figured as I will play starcraft II a lot anyway I might aswell pick the hard race and train with it really well, then if they buff it I will dominate ^^.
I still play zerg (played terran back then). And guys, you know why is it good that we play underpowered zerg? We will be much much better when things will get balanced
So in a long run I think we benefit more cuz we have to play really well to actually win
It's true that there are a lot of Terrans on the ladder, but most of them are not beta players and therefore bad.
Most of the good players( beta players and non-beta BW players) will have already picked their race, so in essence the only change to the player pool post-release is a large influx of weak Terran players. Good Zergs will crush those players the same as any good Terran or Protoss would, so I don't see why it's that much harder for Zerg players now than in the beta...
On August 05 2010 21:17 FuRong wrote: It's true that there are a lot of Terrans on the ladder, but most of them are not beta players and therefore bad.
Most of the good players( beta players and non-beta BW players) will have already picked their race, so in essence the only change to the player pool post-release is a large influx of weak Terran players. Good Zergs will crush those players the same as any good Terran or Protoss would, so I don't see why it's that much harder for Zerg players now than in the beta...
lol were you sleeping for past 2 weeks ?
And regarding your first statement, did you see statistic for TOP diamond 100/1000/5000 ?
I play Zerg because I started with it in the beta and decided to stay with it even though its boring to play compared to other races. Besides, whenever i beat a terran it really feels good. I mean i beat a terran as a Zerg!!! Its good to be the underdog sometimes.
On August 05 2010 03:57 nttea wrote: I LOVE MY ZERGIES ILL NEVER SWITCH. But i will stop playing sc2 if they don't fucking fix this blatant fucking imbalance, there's no room for fucking up even the slightest vs any competent terran while he can make 100x mistakes and still come out on top.
QFT and you worded it nicely. I'm just going to quote idra here. I don't play terran because I still have some self-respect left.
I switched from zerg to random because zerg units are all boring, but it has nothing to do with playing against terrans or their popularity. The zerg units are uninspired, we have the baneling which is the same as the infested terran in bw, roach which is the same as a zealot, zergling, muta, hydra, etc. The only interesting units are the queen and infestor (and okay hive tech is badass but its not original, its almost identical to the hive tech in BW).
I've stuck with zerg for ladder, but play custom games with random. All i have to say is after playing a lot of zerg is i find with protoss and terran i feel i only need to play 3/4 speed to be more successful than i am with zerg.
I actually switched to playing Terran last night. Was beating 500 rating Diamond Zerg players have 5 games playing Terran. Likely going to stick with Terran now unless major changes are made to the game which I feel is unlikely.
I'm not a win whore but Terran are laughably easy compared to Zerg, when I get matched with Zerg or Protoss it is literally a free win every single time.
My advice to other struggling Zerg players is to also switch to Terran, if no one is playing Zerg anymore then maybe Blizzard will take notice and do something.
Sticking with Z because I love the race and i know that some day it will get treated the way it should be. I disliked Z alot in the beta and didn't play phase two now after the break I have realized that instead of whining/switching I will just play and try to figure out the best possible way with what we have today.
I'm not happy with the state of TvZ but I think it will get a fix, hopefully a buff to Z in a gamechanging way instead of a nerf to T.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
My major gripe is that I have to work my ass off to win against a Terran player while the Terran player can just a-move with their mech army that hard counters EVERYTHING I have.
rooooooofl, that's NOT true
The races are pretty balanced, i just think the current map pool favors terran with their narrow chokes and small sizes
On August 05 2010 21:47 Plusgirot wrote: Whats the point beeing zerg if im forced to one base? Current mappool is retarded, im going toss as for now.
The current map pool is great for zerg, zvz is the only matchup i 1 base in (ZvP situational depending on 2 gate or 1 gate core). I'm quite happy with the current pool as a zerg player. DO/BS/DQ veto'd and the rest work out great.
fuck i will never switch back to terran, TvT is killing me, i played T when they were underpowered and i switch to zerg right when terran became really good. damn, i always play the worst race :F
I switched away from Protoss because it was such a pain dealing with Terran. I never had a problem with Terran when I played Zerg. I now play Terran just because we do teams and only 1 other player in our group is Terran, the rest are Zerg or Protoss.
On August 05 2010 23:04 SpaceYeti wrote: To be honest, I think ZvZ is more of a reason to stop playing Zerg than ZvT.
TvT was the reason I stopped playing T. I rather play a few quick boring zvzs than 1-2 TvT slugfests that degenerate into tank/viking in the end.
This is very true. All mirrors are pretty dull but at least ZvZ is over fast. Quick bit of intense micro, boom boom go the banelings and it's over. TvT is like turning your nuts in a vice. Slow excrutiating pain.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
The early game is where terran really have the advantage. I feel much more comfortable once I get to mid / late, simply because I have a lot more tech options to answer whatever they're producing. I never feel like I'm flipping a coin, but then, I also scout pretty fanatically.
Honestly, I feel like switching races.. not because zvt is hard, but because zvz=trash and zerg is just overall... boring... i liked sc1 zerg a lot more, but i dont know how to play any other race in sc2 so its hard to switch lol
On August 06 2010 04:02 Mobius wrote: Honestly, I feel like switching races.. not because zvt is hard, but because zvz=trash and zerg is just overall... boring... i liked sc1 zerg a lot more, but i dont know how to play any other race in sc2 so its hard to switch lol
r u for rela? winning ZvT as Z is amazing. Burrowed roaches unburrowing right in the middle of his tank clump, overlords flying over his ball dropping banelikngs while moving, and hydralisks flanking from two sides.
You're flanking him from: Left, up, right, down :D when you manage to pull it off you have to admit it feels fucking good.
I actually don't have too much problems playing against Terran. Speedling ->Infestors -> Ultras or Speedling -> Mutas -> Banelings -> Ultras or Speedling -> Roach (If they are going for a thor/hellion push) -> Infestor -> Ultras
Flanking/surrounding and engaging on open territory is crucial for victory. Also Hydras, like in BW, are horrible against Terran.
On August 06 2010 04:02 Mobius wrote: Honestly, I feel like switching races.. not because zvt is hard, but because zvz=trash and zerg is just overall... boring...
Switched for the same reason. Zerg units just feel boring in comparison to terran or protoss units. Infestors are cool, Mutas need a second base, because they're so gas heavy and everything else ..... zzz ZZZ zzz
Since i switched to terran i am having a blast playing SC2. As zerg the early game was all about surviving and playing passiv, but as terran i can be the aggressor. 4 marine + 1 hellion harass or reaper harass or banshee harass... so many options.
The 111 build is just so flexible and the whole terran gameplay feels more dynamic.
On August 05 2010 02:38 Deathstar wrote: Considering that Blizzard only goes by statistics, I'm going under the assumption that Terran is owning at the moment. If they are owning in an obvious fashion, I'm bracing for a Zerg buff. So for now, I'm still playing as Zerg because I dedicated too much time with them.
I believe that Terran owns in the West but on Asia server it's Zerg that owns so...
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
While the first part is exaggerated, the second part really occurs often. I've played this one terran 4 times on the ladder since release. He is decently ranked and we've gone 2-2. I remember playing him in a long macro game and crushing him so hard. I was thinking how ridiculous it is that I lost to someone who doesn't even know how to play a mid-late game macro tvz.
I switched to random. Because i figured i could atleast learn all the races at a somewhat decent level before i decided upon what to main. It was a hard transition but it is paying off now that i have alot more insight into what protoss and terran are capable of.
If you feel zerg is a letdown, its always nice to be able to play the other races.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
While the first part is exaggerated, the second part really occurs often. I've played this one terran 4 times on the ladder since release. He is decently ranked and we've gone 2-2. I remember playing him in a long macro game and crushing him so hard. I was thinking how ridiculous it is that I lost to someone who doesn't even know how to play a mid-late game macro tvz.
yes it's exagerated, but it's what the early game is beginning to feel like with all of the different strats the terran can do.
I just played a terran in 300+ diamond who, after getting his reapers scouted, still hopped them up into my base, where I had speedlings waiting. the rest of the game was him floundering with a few marines + tanks while I mopped up with ultra-ling + nydus. It was like playing a silver player, but because of the number of wins he probably gets with his fast reapers, he's mid to high diamond...
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
While the first part is exaggerated, the second part really occurs often. I've played this one terran 4 times on the ladder since release. He is decently ranked and we've gone 2-2. I remember playing him in a long macro game and crushing him so hard. I was thinking how ridiculous it is that I lost to someone who doesn't even know how to play a mid-late game macro tvz.
yes it's exagerated, but it's what the early game is beginning to feel like with all of the different strats the terran can do.
I just played a terran in 300+ diamond who, after getting his reapers scouted, still hopped them up into my base, where I had speedlings waiting. the rest of the game was him floundering with a few marines + tanks while I mopped up with ultra-ling + nydus. It was like playing a silver player, but because of the number of wins he probably gets with his fast reapers, he's mid to high diamond...
It's kind of like back on iccup when those protoss players would always dt drop, bulldog, or something else dumb. They don't really know how to play once it goes past there initial aggression and the terran doesn't know how to fend all these off. So mid-high diamond is comparable to D/D+ in terms of how much zerg is able to defend
I'm really considering switching. I've put so much effort into zerg though it's hard to want to, especially since I can't smurf a 2nd account or anything.
Even if objectively the races are balanced the fact that Terran and Protoss get 100 chances while Zerg are pretty much in do-or-die mode the entire game wears down your mental endurance pretty quickly.
And that's before the fact that maps seemingly can be divided up into balanced or anti-zerg.
I don't think complaining about balance issues is constructive, but I definitely see where Zerg players are coming from. Ive been trying to learn on ladder for the past few days and it is probably one of the hardest things ive ever done in Starcraft 2. Keeping up with spawn larva, creep spread, overlords, on top of regular macro was intense. Not to mention Zerg unit production is way more complicated than that of Terran or Protoss. I believe that played well, Zerg is a powerful race that can compete on an even level with the other two races, but Zerg has an incredibly high skill cap.
Ive got nothing but respect for high level Zerg players at this point.
On August 05 2010 02:49 oxxo wrote: >< Even if TvZ is unbalanced... it's nowhere NEAR what all the Zs are whining about. Seriously. SC2 Z players are insane. Everything they have is UP and everything T (and in the past P) have is OP.
Try teching. It works.
Dude, don't even post if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously are some low level player who hasn't played Zerg and has 0 knowledge of the matchup. At a high level, ZvT is UNPLAYABLE.
If you think zerg is unplayable then you're not as great as you think either. ZvT needs some help, but it's not unbeatable.
ZvT is like flipping a coin 5 times in a row, and the zerg needs it to come up 5 heads in a row to win, while the terran just needs to get 1 tail to win.
I've played a lot of very bad terrans that are diamond level, simply because they don't know how to adapt once their 80% chance of winning in the first 5 minutes fails.
I could swear that I saw the exact same analogy used in relation to BW PvZ, before Forge-FE builds became the norm.
Not saying that there isn't some imbalance this time around, but it's interesting how quickly we've reached this stage in SC2 compared to SC1.
WHERE'S MY DEFENCE? Hydras die faster than fucking flies lings die faster than fucking flies roaches die faster than fucking flies spines get outranged and therefore die like fucking flies to tanks or void rays banelings die before they reach their target mutas die faster than fucking flies
WHERE'S MY SCOUTING? oh yeah so if i scout out a 4 gate that's all i've got, he's gonna keep shitloads of stalkers around his base so overlord scouting is IMPOSSIBLE. so i prepare for a 4 gate push, what comes? oh that's right, 2 void rays that charge up on a overlord before KILLING EVERY UNIT OR BUILDING in my main, so okay fine then i'll hide a hydra den in my nat? yay it works out i clean out the void rays.
and now i've got HALF of his freaking GINORMOUS stalker zealot A move army. so i'll just pump out shitloads of roaches an... oh right my main is gone and i'm relying on one oversaturated mineral line and 2 geysers, so fine i'll just mass speedlings, of course i can't cause getting enough lings to beat anything but lonely zealots is impossible since
lings die faster than fucking flies
so during the fight all my lings die before reaching the target (this with upgraded armor) my roaches gets eaten up by zealots my hydras gets eaten up by stalkers with simple blink micro and focus fire.
so now i don't have a army, but still got those trustworthy spines back in my base, well of course they don't do shit cause they cause NO DAMAGE AT ALL.
so okay i'll learn from my mistake and just go fast lair into hydras right? of course that'll work, except for the fact that you'll be behind in economy the first 20 minutes of the game. well at least i'm not getting void rushed anymore, oh look shiny blobs in the air, just make an overseer, oh look there's shitloads of them and they've trapped all of my drones, well good bye natural economy i at least cleaned it up. or did i? cause now i'm not only behind the first 20, but behind the first 30 minutes. so of course the toss puts up shitloads of expos saturated faster than a zerg could ever dream of saturating. so now he's got shitloads of ground units, okay i've got a okay composition of units to deal with it and i'll add a few mutas to snipe out any reinforcement that might come in the fight.
oh hold on more shiny blobs? of course, make 5 overseers they're all taken out, good bye my expo.
okay no more mistakes, lets put up permanet anti cloak then? oh hold on those 50 stalkers blinks up takes everything out and those blobs go ahead and rape my whole main. gg i guess. at least i held off your first army, to bad you have 50 warpgates that gives you your army back in mere seconds. sweet.
oh yay finally not a protoss, terran! :D fair fights at last! oh hold on he's double racksing, should definitely put some pressure down with roaches, oh hold on two reactors is all you need to pump out shitloads of really cheap and extremely strong units that rip your roaches to pieces in a few shots, sweet. guess i'll build on my economy then. OH HOLD ON he's got tanks out now and is siege shooting my nat, what should i do about that, okay get my lings ready and my roaches and go! oh shit they just got all blown up to pieces, why?
lings die faster than fucking flies roaches die faster than fucking flies
ah well i'll just get muta... oh right he's got shitloads of marines, and mutas die faster than fucking flies so that might be a problem. not even an idea.
so just make a few banelings and tech to burrow, those mine fields are sweet.
BAM almost all of his marines are gone! oh hold on a second that reactor made it possible for him to make an equal amount of marines to barely a cost at all. oh well just make more banelings.
get some infestors out, yeah fungal growth KICKS ASS! best caster in the game TBH.
oh hold on they die by two siege tank fires before they could reach casting range, that's to bad. lets make shitloads of speedlings and a few hydras and banelings to clean the rest up. oh look, he's gotten 8 tanks out at this moment and is perfectly capable of killing your 80 zerglings army and your 30 hydras with banelings.
to bad, GG i guess?
i met that marine,tank combo and won, why? oh no not because i overwhelmed his army with pure macro and good micro.
I WON CAUSE HE WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO UNSIEGE ALL OF HIS TANKS AT ONCE meaning i could clean it up with speedlings and banelings with a few hydras. (the cost being 3 times that of the terran army and still losing loads of units.)
it has been like this ever since i started going up against platinum players and top golds and that kind of players who knows what they're doing.
the only time i can win against protoss is if he does not 4 gate and do some stupid shit like early robo or quick colossi which is just plain retarded from that player. 4 gate with void rays, put down a dark templar tower if you want too and BAM you've got yourself a force that can't be stopped by zerg. void rays will clean up even two and at times even three queens if they're fully charged. and since the protoss has the economic edge he can put up two stargates and boost the shit out of it, having 4 void rays in NO time. ready to annihilate the zerg unless they go for quick hydra, but then they'll be behind SO far in economy due to needing gas for their ridiculous effectiveness to cost rate.
where's my map control? a few stalkers or hellions is enough to clean up ANY kind of speedling map control. roach map control is a waste cause as fast as he sees you those die easy as shit roaches will die easy as shit to any marine or stalker army the enemy currently sits on.
and it's not like i haven't tried to do better things against it. i've heard brood lords is good for stopping mech and marine armies, however all he has to do is unsiege and get away from there, do i want to kill him? i'll go attack, making my brood lords easy to pick off by marines. should i wait? then he'll have 500 vikings out in a minute or so.
where are the useful zerglings we had in SC1? SC2 ZERGLINGS ARE SHIT, all they're good for is sacrificing by running up and down the enemy ramp and not getting any useful scouting out of it at all.
where are our freaking T1 anti air?! WHY do we have to rely on the soft and EXTREMELY crappy queen to defend 4 void rays? that's not enough even if you link all hatches together to get the queens there to kill the void rays directly. they'll kill and flee.
where are those extremely good pressure and harass mutalisks? these days those fly-swat-cannons and fly-swat-turrets picks off mutalisks like nothings happened. and even if you manage to take those out with minor loses those marines/stalkers are still so incredibly strong that you won't have a fucking chance against them.
and where is the scourge that guarded and hunted down any offensive flying the enemy tries to use on us? oh no we can't have that, we have to have the ground ones that's full of shit and are fucking useless unless the enemy ONLY has marines.
and last but not least, why do the lurker receive such hate? they were GREAT for anything to offensive containing, defending certain positions and used in combat to trap the enemy forces. but oh no "they overlap with those useless piece of shit banelings that won't do shit to your enemy unless they're complete retards ~blizzard"
if you don't want to read this rant i'll cut it down for you.
Zerg are broken, there is NO WAY we should have to RELY on the enemy making STUPID mistakes for us to win.
I give up, i don't give a shit about it anymore, if blizzard hates zerg enough to force me to switch races due to their stupid balance ideas then sure, i give up.
brb respeccing terran.
p.s inb4 post telling me i'm a noob and needs to l2p cause obviously that's what's wrong since pro's like idra wins everything xOOO
Actually the more I play zvt the easier it becomes. Incorporating banes in my play have been freaking amazing. The old biomech ball that I would lose 90% of my battles with are now decimated.
However, Idra vs Drewbie really shows what my zvts could be like and I definitely don't think I could beat that terran ball. Put a player with progamer mechanics in a late game tvz and they won't lose.
On August 06 2010 13:32 kNyTTyM wrote: However, Idra vs Drewbie really shows what my zvts could be like and I definitely don't think I could beat that terran ball. Put a player with progamer mechanics in a late game tvz and they won't lose.
On August 06 2010 13:32 kNyTTyM wrote: However, Idra vs Drewbie really shows what my zvts could be like and I definitely don't think I could beat that terran ball. Put a player with progamer mechanics in a late game tvz and they won't lose.
Sounds like SC1 TvZ according to Sea.
Haha. Well sometimes it seems true. Flash vs Zero on ps and Flash vs Kwanro on roadrunner come to mind
I would request that the OP add a third poll with two options, "Is it annoying to listen to Zergs complaining about Terran being imba?" and "Is it stupid annoying to listen to Zergs complaining about Terran being imba?"
They are certainly not as imba as people are making them out to be, and I hardly think that ZvT is unwinnable or as impossible as people say either.
Race balance among the top 10K (points) seems to be even as the average win percentage of all races is 59%. Terran 59.73%, Protoss 59.33, Zerg 59.08. However Sentient has pointed out that the percentage of Terran increases as the sample size decreases which could suggest that Terran are stronger than the other races. Granted this could be due to other factors, but it is something to note. 44% of the Top 200 are Terran vs 29% of the TOP 10K. Also, Tamerlane points this out in the Ladder stats thread (see above).
I realize that this doesn't really mean much, but if Zerg or even ZvT was as super imba as some Zergs are making it out to be then you'd see a much bigger skew. I don't think that the game is perfectly balanced at all, but neither was Brood War.
I switched from terran to zerg believe it or not. I find that ive worked out some truly gay strategies that can make T players flip out and just abuse you constantly. 1. Use your drone to kill the SCV making the barracks - if its earlier use it to kill the scv making the Supply depo. It just makes people hate. No matter what they do your drone will kill the SCV before they react and bring one to kill yours. It slows them down to begin with espicially if you can hit the one doing the Supply depo as it supply blocks them for a few moments allowing you to get a small gap ahead.
One very SIMPLE thing would take care of this - putting tank Overkill back into the game. Tactics would actually MATTER then (like sending in 2-3 lings first to soak a round of tank fire.)
On August 06 2010 14:16 overt wrote: I realize that this doesn't really mean much, but if Zerg or even ZvT was as super imba as some Zergs are making it out to be then you'd see a much bigger skew. I don't think that the game is perfectly balanced at all, but neither was Brood War.
No you wouldn't. The matchmaker would compensate and zerg's matchmaking ratings would be lower so they'd face weaker terrans and still maintain the same win %. Win % is enforced by the matchmaking system over large sample sizes. The only reason it goes above 50% is because diamond players are on the top end of the bell curve and are statistically more likely to play people with a lower matchmaking rating than them.
The stats that tell us balance are going to be centered around the average matchmaking rating by race, a stat we don't have access too. You can't even use # of points in diamond because those seem to inflate through the bonus pool.
EPT
