• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:33
CEST 23:33
KST 06:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL73
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Server Blocker RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Script to open stream directly using middle click ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 693 users

An open letter on "balance" and maps

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
August 02 2010 21:08 GMT
#1
First off I'd like to state this is mostly likely not what you think it is going to be. I'm going to start off by stating my experience here. My name is Raelcun and I like to watch starcraft. Playing starcraft is fun but I love love love to watch good players play it. This is partially why I am a commentator, I want to share this excitement with others and help them enjoy the games more.

I have watched hundreds of games of Starcraft 2 in and out of tournaments, games with something on the line and just practice games between two good players. I have seen A LOT of games in Starcraft 2 and over this time I have come to a conclusion.

The balance in Starcraft 2 seems good, but the maps suck

Let me clarify this before people rage endlessly. Brood War maps were imbalanced too but there was a good selection of maps that were imbalanced towards the different races so that as a whole the map pools were mostly balanced. Right now most of Blizzard maps seem to be constructed with the same couple of building blocks, and as a whole this has lead to the same types of maps over and over with different faces.

Right now theres a lot of whining about Terran imbalance and I think this isn't really anything to do with Terran imbalance as a race, but the fact that the majority of the maps in the map pool are very easily exploited by Terrans. These are the conclusions I've come to.

  • Unsafe expansions which have multiple entrances make it hard for zerg and protoss to expand quickly against terrans.

    There is no real safe expansion in the map pool, Blistering sands itself is safe but if you are guarding that your backdoor is open. Steppes of War has a side entrance by the rocks which you have to expend extra effort to cover. The two new maps have horrendously open exapansions, and a back expansion that is easily punished by cliffs.

    LT is one of the safest expansions out there but can be taken down by thor/tank drops easily. Terrans on the current map pool with the use of hellions, reapers, thor/tank drops are able to punish the other races the most for taking early expansions while they delay their expansion until siege or merely expand while you are defending their harassment.

  • Xel'Naga watch towers that are anywhere near central locations or major chokepoints on the map will favor Terran. The ability to grant siege tanks their full range by sitting next to a watch tower is very powerful. We've seen this proven many many times on Lost Temple and Metalopolis, what makes it worse are the fact that these watch towers are in defensible locations as well. There are chokepoints nearby that will force an army to constrict while hitting them the 4 walls on LT, the small cliff on Metal and Kulas ravine. Central watch towers make the middle of the map if it is not completely open a tank playground.

    Xel'Naga watch towers as a whole are an interesting feature and I would not like to see them go even though map makers are experimenting with making maps that do not include them I think they have a lot of potential. But placing them in key locations next to choke points really has to stop, if they're near key map chokepoints make them vulnerable and hard to hold. Not like, Metal, Kulas, Blistering, but more like the watch towers on Desert Oasis.

  • Large main bases many times with a lot of area for reapers to jump up in are good for terrans as well. They have sensor towers and are not bothered by HUGE main bases as they can be forewarned before a drop comes in, but a simple 4 marauder drop into one of the barren corners of your base can result in losing important buildings. The large size of the bases on most maps means reapers can get in easily and in order to defend against drops stupid amounts of static anti air are needed. This can also be beneficial to Zerg but that brings me around to the next point.

  • We've figured out a lot about what makes a map a terran map, but we still have not figured out solidly what makes a map a protoss map or a zerg map. Until we can figure out what map features that solidly favor a zerg or a protoss it's hard to balance out the terran features on a map by giving it protoss and zerg features.


That brings me to my major point, I believe the balance as in racial balance is at a good point right now players are able to overcome the maps by extreme levels of play but overall we're seeing high Terran statistics because the maps are favoring Terran and the play level on the Ladder isnt quite as high.

My proposal on how to fix this is we need the map making community to try and do their best to purposely make zerg and protoss favored maps and have good players play on them.

"Wait doesn't this make it worse?" You are prone to ask, in the short term yes but in the long term it will allow us to figure out what map features will make a map good for zerg and protoss and when we are able to combine these features with the terran features that we already know then maybe we can come up with some more truly all around balanced maps.

Map making is still in it's infancy and I believe Starcraft 2 will not continue to grow as a whole until we can fix this and get better maps out for the community, we run the danger of hitting stagnation if the maps never evolve and change. That was one of the key features of Brood War was a constantly changing and evolving map pool, the map makers constantly pushing the bounds of what is balanced and what is not. There were some pretty famous examples ie Gorky Park, Demon Forest. But we learned from those mistakes so right now I propose we intentionally try and create some of those disaster maps so we can learn from them.
tacrats
Profile Joined July 2010
476 Posts
August 02 2010 21:11 GMT
#2
Agree on the maps criticisms.

However, why does everything have to be an open letter?
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
August 02 2010 21:12 GMT
#3
Cuz it makes a good title and I'm not completely set on my ideas where people are free to add to it and make it better.
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 21:20:22
August 02 2010 21:16 GMT
#4
I'm surprised someone had to write this! Haha. It's pretty clear that the game will explode with more depth and undiscovered "overpowered" strategies once the maps get a bit more technical and large. It looks like Blizzard doesn't want large technical maps for the official ladder, but I can't wait to see some great large maps in tournaments.

EDIT:
Also you have to look at what each race excels at to find how to make maps more imbalanced for them.

Protoss - Warp Gates
Zerg - Easily defendable expansions and large spaces where creep can be spread for easy surrounds.

I'd bet Protoss would be really good on Island maps with Warp Prisms allowing for easy reinforcements and quick movements.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
skYfiVe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States382 Posts
August 02 2010 21:16 GMT
#5
Pretty interesting insight on the situation. I wish Blizzard was more open to player made maps for ladder, but they seem to want to keep the maps from being "too sophisticated".

Hopefully Blizzard will think up some good ideas. I really want some diversity though. They seem to be making even more open natural maps, which are absolutely impossible to defend for zerg, or for a protoss in a FE situation. (without 5 cannons)
"1baseiwa"
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 21:23:41
August 02 2010 21:23 GMT
#6
Things that are Terran friendly:
-chokes,
-small ramps,
-high ground over choke or an expo,
-small maps. (tanks can cover more playable area)
I think Terrans should have some desert(chokes,high grounds are RARE) maps to deal with... They'd need to adapt too.
They can already. Put depots over mineral line so Zerglings can't come it,burrow(depots) them when out of danger,done. Making Bunkers in crucial positions would be more rewarding and not only for one attack. (chokes,on high ground,near ramps)
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
Alou
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States3748 Posts
August 02 2010 21:23 GMT
#7
Very interesting take on the whole balance debate. As always you explain your ideas well. I definitely think we need to explore new features for maps and I hope the map making community can do that and the rest of us can help in any way possible.
Life is Good.
alphafuzard
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1610 Posts
August 02 2010 21:24 GMT
#8
On August 03 2010 06:16 Takkara wrote:
I'm surprised someone had to write this! Haha. It's pretty clear that the game will explode with more depth and undiscovered "overpowered" strategies once the maps get a bit more technical and large. It looks like Blizzard doesn't want large technical maps for the official ladder, but I can't wait to see some great large maps in tournaments.

the current maps are just as "technical and large" as the majority of brood war pro maps
that is not the problem imo

what i don't like is the patterns in maps that blizzard has forced upon the community. the game has been balanced around these gimmicky, mediocre maps, and now the patterns that they follow have consequently become the standard
more weight
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 02 2010 21:25 GMT
#9
Personally, I think Zerg does okay in some of the wide-open maps, while Protoss gets the short stick. For example, the new map, Delta Quadrant and Desert Oasis are next to unplayable for Protoss in a PvZ because all-in speedlings are just too ridiculously powerful. It is impossible for Protoss to expand against any competent Zerg who just keeps sending in speedlings into the mineral line. Protoss is forced to defend (usually unsuccessfully) while Zerg can mass expand everywhere.

I really don't care about having large macro maps anymore. I just want non-bullshit maps that aren't horribly imbalanced.
ArtemisKnives
Profile Joined March 2010
United States210 Posts
August 02 2010 21:25 GMT
#10
Definitely going to agree with you here Raelcun.

Terran unit structure makes it relatively easy to abuse. Reapers are an early cliff walking unit so towers can easily be defended with them / provide vision where other races wouldn't be able to see til later in the game (kulas and some others). Many times I feel like I have to get Templars so quickly against terran and drop pylons all over "my side of the map" just so I can get vision in time for a warpin and feedback / stalker. I figure losing randomly placed 100 mineral pylons is better than losing a important tech building or possible drone / nexus stim death in 4 seconds.
Masters/GM S1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 Macro Toss // twitch.tv/artemisknives [1080p stream]
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
August 02 2010 21:26 GMT
#11
Yeah, I actually agree, most things can already be beaten in theoretical situations overcoming any slight imbalances, but the maps do stack it up a bit.

That being said, the game is still in a pretty good place right now, people claim T is the strongest, and Z the weakest, but
+ Show Spoiler +
Idra won the final vs Tester
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
August 02 2010 21:27 GMT
#12
i agree with this and i think as maps begin to get larger (to BW sized maps) people will actually be able to abuse terran immobility more. right now on most ladder maps a mid-game mech army can seige and clamp down half the map which is probably the ONLY reason why it's viable.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
August 02 2010 21:32 GMT
#13
BTW. This thread is:
HOW TO BALANCE SC2 AND NOT TO MAKE CHANGES IN RACES.
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
Squanto
Profile Joined May 2010
14 Posts
August 02 2010 21:33 GMT
#14
I would like to see map statistics, any way of doing so?
Lexvink
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada310 Posts
August 02 2010 21:36 GMT
#15
Low ground main, with easy to defend naturals could screw with the 1 basing turtle terrans that eventually expand when they got a handful of tanks. However, this could backfire with early reaper plays(unless they aren't attached). ><. Larger maps with more open spaces and less landable cliffs every bloody place where there are minerals would be nice too.
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
August 02 2010 21:37 GMT
#16
Blizzard has the statistics locked away in a secure vault somewhere in an unspecified location so that they may choose to release them randomly when it suits whatever purpose they like.
FuriousJodo
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States212 Posts
August 02 2010 21:37 GMT
#17
Agree with this - though as a Protoss player I still think Terran have the coolest units. (Reapers and Hellions are just too awesome, seriously). But I don't think the game is unbalanced and I definitely agree with you that the maps seem to be more of an issue than actual game balance.
http://www.youtube.com/FuriousJodo - SC2/Misc Gaming Commentary/etc
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
August 02 2010 21:40 GMT
#18
On August 03 2010 06:37 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Blizzard has the statistics locked away in a secure vault somewhere in an unspecified location so that they may choose to release them randomly when it suits whatever purpose they like.

You're wrong. Zeratul locked them in his crystal... That's why Raynor is so shocked.
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
August 02 2010 21:42 GMT
#19
On August 03 2010 06:40 Kurumi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2010 06:37 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Blizzard has the statistics locked away in a secure vault somewhere in an unspecified location so that they may choose to release them randomly when it suits whatever purpose they like.

You're wrong. Zeratul locked them in his crystal... That's why Raynor is so shocked.

I loled nice one, but anyways the problem with statistics is you can make them suit whatever purpose you like as I said. If you see that terran is winning a majority on every map there are two conclusions:

1) Terran is fucking imba
2) The maps are bad

and people are just as likely to come to both conclusions which causes ragestorms while people argue about it endlessly.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
August 02 2010 21:44 GMT
#20
I choose 2)
When playing beta I always was like:
Why the maps are so small... I watched some BW games and there were a LOT of expos.. maps were big.. sometimes there were even THREE routes to one base. Look now.. Blistering Sands. Small,2 ways to go to Your enemy. North and South.
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
DaveTesta Events
18:00
Kirktown Ready Room #3
davetesta110
Liquipedia
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 1
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
ZZZero.O267
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 180
Livibee 61
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 267
HiyA 77
Dota 2
syndereN373
monkeys_forever292
Pyrionflax114
League of Legends
Grubby4946
Dendi1257
Counter-Strike
fl0m1693
Stewie2K1067
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor415
Trikslyr61
Other Games
summit1g6374
mouzStarbuck260
ToD136
ViBE123
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick54636
StarCraft 2
angryscii 39
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 218
• printf 42
• musti20045 27
• tFFMrPink 16
• OhrlRock 1
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21716
League of Legends
• Doublelift4480
• Jankos2592
Other Games
• imaqtpie2219
• Shiphtur488
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 27m
RSL Revival
12h 27m
Classic vs Clem
FEL
17h 27m
Elazer vs Spirit
Gerald vs MaNa
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
20h 27m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Wardi Open
1d 13h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.