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On August 03 2010 07:31 Necrosjef wrote:
Don't really agree with this at all. OP your logic is flawed.
Let me come at it from a different angle.
"The maps are the maps. The reason Terran are winning more often than not on these maps is because Terran are too strong."
Let me also address the part of your post where you call on SC2 mapmakers to make more Protoss and Zerg favoured maps. Not that there is anything wrong with this idea, but this idea will take time and quite frankly SC2 needs care and attention from Blizzard not a bunch of amateur map makers.
What you should be doing rather than making topics like this is writing "An Open Letter to Blizzard" with the explicit instruction of 2 words. The first one being nerf and the second one being Terran.
Excuse me but when have blizzard shown prowess in making good maps that are balanced throughout a games lifetime? I have no idea why people think that blizz are Gods at everything and refuse to admit that the community can do some things better than them. Also assuming that amateur is always worse than professional is really quite close minded.
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On August 03 2010 07:35 Numy wrote:
Blizzard have shown to be far worse at making maps than these "amateur map makers". One of the most dynamic things about a good RTS is that maps change the game. BW without custom maps is horribly imbalanced.
So his actual message is "Let people who can make better maps use them on ladder."
I agree with you. I'm not saying that amateur map makers won't/can't do a better job than Blizzard I'm sure they can.
What I am saying is that it will take time. SC2 needs attention now.
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On August 03 2010 07:40 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:35 Numy wrote:
Blizzard have shown to be far worse at making maps than these "amateur map makers". One of the most dynamic things about a good RTS is that maps change the game. BW without custom maps is horribly imbalanced.
So his actual message is "Let people who can make better maps use them on ladder." What I am saying is that it will take time. SC2 needs attention now.
What do you mean by SC2 needing attention?
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On August 03 2010 07:40 Crabman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:31 Necrosjef wrote:
Don't really agree with this at all. OP your logic is flawed.
Let me come at it from a different angle.
"The maps are the maps. The reason Terran are winning more often than not on these maps is because Terran are too strong."
Let me also address the part of your post where you call on SC2 mapmakers to make more Protoss and Zerg favoured maps. Not that there is anything wrong with this idea, but this idea will take time and quite frankly SC2 needs care and attention from Blizzard not a bunch of amateur map makers.
What you should be doing rather than making topics like this is writing "An Open Letter to Blizzard" with the explicit instruction of 2 words. The first one being nerf and the second one being Terran. Excuse me but when have blizzard shown prowess in making good maps that are balanced throughout a games lifetime? I have no idea why people think that blizz are Gods at everything and refuse to admit that the community can do some things better than them. Also assuming that amateur is always worse than professional is really quite close minded.
Not really closed minded at all to think that a professional is better than an amateur. I'm a professional engineer and I'd be pretty upset if someone told me that an amateur guy messing about in his garage knows more than me.
Also nothing wrong with asking Blizzard to balance a game they made. I'm pretty upset that after waiting for SC2 for 12 years that this is the best Blizzard have managed to come up with. I don't think I'm alone and I don't think it is wrong to ask Blizzard to improve on something which is quite frankly much worse than the original.
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if you dont FE everytime, Terran wont be able to snipe your expo so easily
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blizzard saying their map pool is simple is simply bs
just look at blistering sands, you have to put an overlord/depot/pylon behind some bushes in order to watch out for the backdoor to be destroyed.
and compare that to destination(which is sweet in sc2 btw) and fighting spirit
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On August 03 2010 07:41 Crabman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:40 Necrosjef wrote:On August 03 2010 07:35 Numy wrote:
Blizzard have shown to be far worse at making maps than these "amateur map makers". One of the most dynamic things about a good RTS is that maps change the game. BW without custom maps is horribly imbalanced.
So his actual message is "Let people who can make better maps use them on ladder." What I am saying is that it will take time. SC2 needs attention now. What do you mean by SC2 needing attention?
1. Battlenet 2.0 - been tons of threads about how bad this system is. Not gonna go into it here.
2. Balance - see the 10million other threads about the state of balance.
3. Maps - again see this thread.
4. Performance - not such a publicized issue here but for what SC2 does it uses alot of system resources it shouldn't be. The software isn't efficient for something that has below average graphics and does nothing more complicated than BW does.
Those are really the 4 main problems with SC2 at present in my mind. Not necessarily in that order. Unfortunately the community can't do anything about most of those problems. Which is a shame but its a sad fact of life - we (the community) rely on someone else to sort these problems out. Thats why we all paid this someone else (Blizzard) to do it for us. As customers we have a right to complain when they aren't doing what we pay em for.
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On August 03 2010 07:44 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:40 Crabman123 wrote:On August 03 2010 07:31 Necrosjef wrote:
Don't really agree with this at all. OP your logic is flawed.
Let me come at it from a different angle.
"The maps are the maps. The reason Terran are winning more often than not on these maps is because Terran are too strong."
Let me also address the part of your post where you call on SC2 mapmakers to make more Protoss and Zerg favoured maps. Not that there is anything wrong with this idea, but this idea will take time and quite frankly SC2 needs care and attention from Blizzard not a bunch of amateur map makers.
What you should be doing rather than making topics like this is writing "An Open Letter to Blizzard" with the explicit instruction of 2 words. The first one being nerf and the second one being Terran. Excuse me but when have blizzard shown prowess in making good maps that are balanced throughout a games lifetime? I have no idea why people think that blizz are Gods at everything and refuse to admit that the community can do some things better than them. Also assuming that amateur is always worse than professional is really quite close minded. Not really closed minded at all to think that a professional is better than an amateur. I'm a professional engineer and I'd be pretty upset if someone told me that an amateur guy messing about in his garage knows more than me.
Well, if you were a blizzard mapmaker, that someone would probably be right. Doesn't matter if it's upsetting, it's true, blizz maps are not tournament quality.
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good thread... i cannot veto out all the anti-zerg maps anymore. .thats how many there are.
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You're wrong. The races are not balanced. All maps have cliffs all maps have chokes. All maps have blah blah. And one race has all the tricks to exploit any map features at any stage in the game. And the other races (ZP) have very few.
The races are not balanced. One race has most of their useful upgrades at 50/50.
On the whole map thing. sure give it a shot. But laugh when we can finally all agree that maps arent the problem.
Maps are just maps people. If you make a game with maps and races. In a fairly balanced game, all races should have a decently fair fight on any maps. IF you have to adjust the maps to fix a balance within the races then obviously there is an imbalance. OR? do you really think blizzard just said "ok we got it perfectly balanced! yes!, Now lets make some horribly imba Terran maps!" ?
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On August 03 2010 07:28 SiegeFlank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:18 xtfftc wrote:
The main problem with maps is that most people play ladder, which only includes poorly-designed Blizzard maps, or practice for ladder/tournaments on the same maps. To get a map into the ladder pool we need Blizzard to put it there. Unfortunately, they probably plan on charging users for new maps, so it will be even more complicated. I highly doubt that they'll charge users for new ladder maps. Not only has there been no mention of it in the past, but if they actually did decide to charge for it, the amount of backlash they would receive from the community would be so large that they'd basically be forced to make it free. Maps are much easier to design in SC2 than they are in other games (with regards to the tools they provide you).
They have shown time after time that they do not care about the community anymore. The backlash about RealID was outside of the community as well because privacy is a serious issue. However, I can't see BBC reporting on gamers being charged for maps.
On August 03 2010 07:44 Necrosjef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:40 Crabman123 wrote:On August 03 2010 07:31 Necrosjef wrote:
Don't really agree with this at all. OP your logic is flawed.
Let me come at it from a different angle.
"The maps are the maps. The reason Terran are winning more often than not on these maps is because Terran are too strong."
Let me also address the part of your post where you call on SC2 mapmakers to make more Protoss and Zerg favoured maps. Not that there is anything wrong with this idea, but this idea will take time and quite frankly SC2 needs care and attention from Blizzard not a bunch of amateur map makers.
What you should be doing rather than making topics like this is writing "An Open Letter to Blizzard" with the explicit instruction of 2 words. The first one being nerf and the second one being Terran. Excuse me but when have blizzard shown prowess in making good maps that are balanced throughout a games lifetime? I have no idea why people think that blizz are Gods at everything and refuse to admit that the community can do some things better than them. Also assuming that amateur is always worse than professional is really quite close minded. Not really closed minded at all to think that a professional is better than an amateur. I'm a professional engineer and I'd be pretty upset if someone told me that an amateur guy messing about in his garage knows more than me.
Professionals have limited hours and deadlines. Amateurs are likely to spend much more time working on something like a map until it is good enough.
Also, Blizzard's mapmakers are a limited number of people, while the amateurs are hundreds, even thousands if we count community input. This is why communities such as TL are so awesome - hundreds of people provide content.
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I doubt they'll charge for ladder maps, but you can expect them to charge for tournament maps... by proxy. The mapmaker will put it on their marketplace and they'll take a cut off the top.
Although idk if anyone will bother trying that, the custom map system is so awful.
On August 03 2010 08:02 sacrificetheory wrote:In a fairly balanced game, all races should have a decently fair fight on any maps. IF you have to adjust the maps to fix a balance within the races then obviously there is an imbalance.
that's
just
wrong.
I don't know how you can possibly imagine this is true. Island maps are not race balanced in bw, does this mean bw is imbalanced?
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On August 03 2010 06:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The balance in Starcraft 2 seems good, but the maps suck
Signed.
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On August 03 2010 08:02 sacrificetheory wrote:
You're wrong. The races are not balanced. All maps have cliffs all maps have chokes. All maps have blah blah. And one race has all the tricks to exploit any map features at any stage in the game. And the other races (ZP) have very few.
The races are not balanced. One race has most of their useful upgrades at 50/50.
On the whole map thing. sure give it a shot. But laugh when we can finally all agree that maps arent the problem.
Maps are just maps people. If you make a game with maps and races. In a fairly balanced game, all races should have a decently fair fight on any maps. IF you have to adjust the maps to fix a balance within the races then obviously there is an imbalance. OR? do you really think blizzard just said "ok we got it perfectly balanced! yes!, Now lets make some horribly imba Terran maps!" ?
There are these things called air units zerg and protoss have them too, if you dont like drops on cliffs get anti-air and scout if they have a starport air units are coming soon...
One person says the maps are too open map imba terran, the next says the maps have chokes imba terran???
Zerg can macro like a beast and so can protoss with chronoboost, terran has to stop building scvs to get orbital command... every race is different stop complaining as if you didnt know that coming into starcraft.
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Completely agree with OP.
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i agree we need bigger maps
blizzard gulp this
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Necrosjef: People complaining about something doesn't prove that there¨s a problem. people always complain - did you ever visit the strategy section of brood war here on tl.net? Even 6-7 years after the latest balance changes people had all sorts of opinions on the "imbalances" between races, units, and maps. Some were warranted of course, but in time bad maps get wheated out.
Numy: The balance of the original starcraft was more or less worked out from the blizzard made lost temple. Sure, it was revisited numerous times, but it was still the foundation of the game we know today. In the later stages of the game that map was agreed to be terran favored, but as you might know noone would have suggested that originally (terran was once considered very weak). Map designers cannot be expected to foresee the future. To answer your question: yes, blizzard has made balanced maps in the sense that the game we came to know evolved from those maps. So it can happen again.
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On August 03 2010 08:04 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:28 SiegeFlank wrote:On August 03 2010 07:18 xtfftc wrote:
The main problem with maps is that most people play ladder, which only includes poorly-designed Blizzard maps, or practice for ladder/tournaments on the same maps. To get a map into the ladder pool we need Blizzard to put it there. Unfortunately, they probably plan on charging users for new maps, so it will be even more complicated. I highly doubt that they'll charge users for new ladder maps. Not only has there been no mention of it in the past, but if they actually did decide to charge for it, the amount of backlash they would receive from the community would be so large that they'd basically be forced to make it free. Maps are much easier to design in SC2 than they are in other games (with regards to the tools they provide you). They have shown time after time that they do not care about the community anymore. The backlash about RealID was outside of the community as well because privacy is a serious issue. However, I can't see BBC reporting on gamers being charged for maps.
So this is suddenly evidence that Blizzard will charge for future maps? I don't buy it. And it's not like the whole RealID idea was withdrawn purely because BBC reported on it, the large amount of gaming websites that reported on it contributed to this as well.
On August 03 2010 08:02 sacrificetheory wrote:
Maps are just maps people. If you make a game with maps and races. In a fairly balanced game, all races should have a decently fair fight on any maps. IF you have to adjust the maps to fix a balance within the races then obviously there is an imbalance.
Brood War is a game which was balanced by mapmakers. You can't just say that because all maps have chokes and cliffs, a race is imbalanced on all maps. There are countless numbers of factors aside from simply having chokes and cliffs which factor into a map's level of balance.
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Okay, seriously, just because the races are not balanced at the moment that does not mean that we don't have to start thinking of the maps already. The game will change again and again, especially with the two expansions. However, the adjustments will gradually become smaller and smaller.
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Ive noticed this a lot during tournaments where there are multiple matches (bo7 etc.) and the loser chooses map. It seems like whoever wins the initial map (usually picked by the organizer) wins the series, as they just alternate wins/losses based on map choice. Take Idra ZvP for example, loss on LT, then choose scrap station, win there opponent chooses steps, etc. It reminds me of tennis, where the "server" has a huge advantage.
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EPT
