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On August 03 2010 06:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
I loled nice one, but anyways the problem with statistics is you can make them suit whatever purpose you like as I said. If you see that terran is winning a majority on every map there are two conclusions:
1) Terran is fucking imba
2) The maps are bad
and people are just as likely to come to both conclusions which causes ragestorms while people argue about it endlessly.
On August 03 2010 06:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The balance in Starcraft 2 seems good, but the maps suck
Hi Raelcun:
You seem pretty confident on your words, and to be honest, If you got a clear idea of how must be a perfect balanced map, why not just try to make one, invite some good players, same level, and make a tourney or something to try to prove your words?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but If you see the problem so clear, I bet you can design or tell someone to build a map following your instructions, that seems pretty balance, and as a commentator, I also bet you know tons of good players that gladly join the tournament if you ask them.
IMHO that will be more practical than create another balance teorycraft thread, and people will quit arguing endlessly, just my two cents.
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On August 03 2010 06:26 Catch]22 wrote:.... + Show Spoiler +Idra won the final vs Tester
and tester plays protoss, sorry to burst your bubble :/
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I actually disagree. I think some of the problems with the game are map independent. I do believe further balance is necessary and actually that more balanced maps will illuminate the true balance issues in the game.
That being said, the maps REALLY REALLY SUCK. I can't argue with that. Every map is completely horrible for zerg which is why zerg never can win anything ever without being 3x better than the T or P player.
Just do your best to promote play on the iccup maps and aim for very neutral maps. These will show best what the real balance issues are.
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On August 27 2010 11:53 Aborash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 06:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
I loled nice one, but anyways the problem with statistics is you can make them suit whatever purpose you like as I said. If you see that terran is winning a majority on every map there are two conclusions:
1) Terran is fucking imba
2) The maps are bad
and people are just as likely to come to both conclusions which causes ragestorms while people argue about it endlessly. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 06:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The balance in Starcraft 2 seems good, but the maps suck
Hi Raelcun: You seem pretty confident on your words, and to be honest, If you got a clear idea of how must be a perfect balanced map, why not just try to make one, invite some good players, same level, and make a tourney or something to try to prove your words? I'm not saying you're wrong, but If you see the problem so clear, I bet you can design or tell someone to build a map following your instructions, that seems pretty balance, and as a commentator, I also bet you know tons of good players that gladly join the tournament if you ask them. IMHO that will be more practical than create another balance teorycraft thread, and people will quit arguing endlessly, just my two cents.
You know the guy casts like a bazillion hours a week? There is sort of a custom map thing. Search TL for IMS.
On August 27 2010 12:04 Floophead_III wrote:
I actually disagree. I think some of the problems with the game are map independent. I do believe further balance is necessary and actually that more balanced maps will illuminate the true balance issues in the game.
That being said, the maps REALLY REALLY SUCK. I can't argue with that. Every map is completely horrible for zerg which is why zerg never can win anything ever without being 3x better than the T or P player.
Just do your best to promote play on the iccup maps and aim for very neutral maps. These will show best what the real balance issues are.
I believe there is small issues with the game balance here or there. Nothing crazy and game breaking like has been accused lately. In that same token I believe there is a very large problem with the maps. Metal is the closest to being balanced but the middle is totally screwed against the ole' tank/sensor tower but other than that it's not bad.
Fixing the map pool will be a major step in the right direction. Can you imagine BW if we were still playing on LT??  . While I am sure our current map pool is not perfect by any means it is steps in the right direction. It would be different if blizz was making a bunch of new maps non stop. But they are not. Thus the community has to step up.
This is the thing about SC. As much control as Blizz (read: activision) takes away from us we will still find new and innovative ways to move the community forward. Others are doing it in their own way. Day9 is helping the average gamer how to become a more solid player. HDH is helping introduce a wide variety of new fans to the game and make it understandable via Youtube. Gosucoaching is helping bring a new, useful and viable business into e-sports. We are doing it through helping regulate and promote ultra competitive play in ways such as this. With Starcraft 2 the community really showed up and force and was 10x more successful at promoting Starcraft 2 than Blizzard imo. If it had not happened like it did I strongly believe Starcraft 2 would have been a much smaller success than it is now.
Remember the first cash prize Starcraft II tournaments (don't know if Blizzcon was but that really does not count since only they had access to it than) was the Hello Goodbye Tournament than HDH. But as a community we need to keep moving forward and pushing new boundaries. A map team is a small part of this but I have a feeling we will all look back and wonder how we played on maps like Steppes of War or Desert Oasis.
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I'm really worried this game is going to still be using shitty ladder maps in a year. Look at wc3, they're still using the ladder pool, god knows why.
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never liked the idea of watch towers, its just like scouting, only it gives less of a chance for the other player to be sneaky.
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On August 27 2010 13:02 Raz0r wrote:
never liked the idea of watch towers, its just like scouting, only it gives less of a chance for the other player to be sneaky.
I think on larger maps its a good idea. They present a unique twist to SC2 that I have come to love after hating it with a passion at first. It also makes map control even more important. One minor slip up and they might see your whole army moving in. I now know all the size of the watchtowers ranges and now always send out something to clear the watch tower of probes or w/e b4 my army gets there.
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Someone really needs to get the balls and run with some custom/iccup maps.
They aren't any worse then the crap we're already playing on.
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On August 27 2010 12:06 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 11:53 Aborash wrote:On August 03 2010 06:42 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
I loled nice one, but anyways the problem with statistics is you can make them suit whatever purpose you like as I said. If you see that terran is winning a majority on every map there are two conclusions:
1) Terran is fucking imba
2) The maps are bad
and people are just as likely to come to both conclusions which causes ragestorms while people argue about it endlessly. On August 03 2010 06:08 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The balance in Starcraft 2 seems good, but the maps suck
Hi Raelcun: You seem pretty confident on your words, and to be honest, If you got a clear idea of how must be a perfect balanced map, why not just try to make one, invite some good players, same level, and make a tourney or something to try to prove your words? I'm not saying you're wrong, but If you see the problem so clear, I bet you can design or tell someone to build a map following your instructions, that seems pretty balance, and as a commentator, I also bet you know tons of good players that gladly join the tournament if you ask them. IMHO that will be more practical than create another balance teorycraft thread, and people will quit arguing endlessly, just my two cents. You know the guy casts like a bazillion hours a week? There is sort of a custom map thing. Search TL for IMS. Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 12:04 Floophead_III wrote:
I actually disagree. I think some of the problems with the game are map independent. I do believe further balance is necessary and actually that more balanced maps will illuminate the true balance issues in the game.
That being said, the maps REALLY REALLY SUCK. I can't argue with that. Every map is completely horrible for zerg which is why zerg never can win anything ever without being 3x better than the T or P player.
Just do your best to promote play on the iccup maps and aim for very neutral maps. These will show best what the real balance issues are. I believe there is small issues with the game balance here or there. Nothing crazy and game breaking like has been accused lately.
I don't know dude. I don't lose TvZ's anywhere, even on iccup maps in CGs. It's like a 90-95% winrate for me and I'm honestly not half as good as someone like Gretorp or Morrow. Maybe someone like Machine or Sheth could beat me consistently, but anyone below that skill level, doubtful.
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On August 03 2010 10:12 Rabiator wrote:
Terrans are the ones which suffer most from unsafe expansions, because they dont even have a cheap (~100 minerals) static defense to help defend against ground forces. Thus they are REQUIRED to sacrifice part of their army as base defense OR spend huge amounts of cash on a Planetary Fortresses which dont cover a whole lot of ground. The range of a PF is rather short with 7 (if you decide to upgrade) and that covers only slightly more ground (due to the size) than a Protoss / Zerg static ground defense IF the range is counted from the edge of the model and not the center!
I tend to see the situation from an other angle, terran have cheap defense (bunker) that can be
salvaged when its time to push or when the battle front move elsewhere, so its practicly free.
PF is a bitch to deal with you know it will kill allot of ground unit if you try to destroy it, hell some terran use them a pure defense beside a normal command centre because its so damn efficient at destroying anything on the ground that isnt a seige tank or an upgraded collosi. Also unlike other static defense it can even hit more than 1 units.
On August 03 2010 10:12 Rabiator wrote:
Large main bases give you space to use Nydus worms or Warp Prisms to make "warp drops", its just that those races have apparently become too lazy to use these tactics. Small and tight bases really really hurt Terrans, because they need LOTS of buildings (more than any other race) and their army is immobile. Just imagine a Thor trying to get through a crowded base to defend against Mutas. Almost impossible unless you use a Medivac, which is relatively easily shot down.
Well drops are different for other races. Zerg and protoss dropship dont actually bolster the army you drop in, medevac do. Lets say i make i make 2 warp prism, that 400 minerals thats not shooting down stuff, thats quite alot. After a drop take place terran can use the medevac has part of their regular army, for zerg its just food for protoss its an expensive pylon that actualy take food not give it.
Also, zerg and protoss are much more vulnerable to a counter attack. In a recent game i played, im protoss facing a terran. After we both expand, i see his drop coming because of my observer - sweet i move my army to welcome them, i win the skirmish with ease. i clearly have an avantage now, so i counter attack. When i get there there is 2 tank behind a wall raining down fire so i cannot break in. If your safer from counterattack its much easier to actually do drops like that.
Also, consider what you are dropping. Terrans have the best units for the job i think. Stim make realy good drops, hit and run bio to snipe stuff, Hellions make good drops too when upgraded
and they are fast so you can save some of them sometime, and they just eat mineral line in seconds, and if the other player make em run away in one group, that bunch em up and you can still fry a ton of em. Protoss have templar drop, very good in the mineral line, zerg, i dont know, i dont think i ever got dropped even once by a zerg, I did saw a baneling drop on a stream tho that was sweet. Consider cost now, marine, hellion and marauder are prety cheap.
Also consider the target, terran can fly allot of buildings, this can sometime help, i will admit not often but it can be helpfull. If once in a while your not losing a command center because you your army was out of position by just lifting it, well that prety nice, those are expensive!
I think zerg/protoss avoid to do drop for economic reason, they need all the units we they get to fight the cost effective terran army, spending money on fluff will get you overrun.
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On August 04 2010 13:20 Rabiator wrote:
I am sorry, but you cant really compare the Marauder drop with a Warp Prism or Nydus worm. The Protoss and Zerg versions are both "reinforcable" and thus offer the possibility of a basewipe if the defending forces take too long. The Nydus worm especially offers the possibility to retreat instantly and not lose anything except the worm. Protoss might get several rounds of warp-ins if they manage to find a hidden corner in a large base and get a pretty sizeable force going and if you intercept the warp-prism before it can do the drop the Protoss only loses the warp-prism.
That is true warp-in and nydus are in theory way stronger, except for one thing. terran have built in map hack. Sensor tower in your base will cover it and getting sneaky on the terran is quite hard when he see that something move in the fog of war. An other thing that favor terran drops, is scan. You can see where are the static defense and where is the army is, easier to get a good drop spot.
Observer can do that too but sometime they run into things like turrets or ravens or even ghost, man i hate when ghost emp and kill my obs because they can see the blurry trail!
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All of the Blizzard maps are completely terrible, I agree. I don't know how much of an impact it will actually have on the balance of the game, but regardless of that I think that it does completely change the way the game is played, for the worse. All of the maps encourage one (two maximum) base play, and discourage early teching and early expanding.
Look at the differences between, say, Fighting Spirit, and Metalopolis.
First of all, on FS, the starting locations are in the actual corners, making the distance between mains a maximum distance. On Metalopolis (and LT) the starting locations are on a diagonal that makes them a lot closer to each other in terms of both ground and flying distance.
Expansions are so much easier to defend on FS as well, and your natural is actually able to be defended because of how tucked away it is, making fast expansion builds a lot easier to pull off. Metalopolis on the other hand, the natural is completely wide open, there's no way to defend it from any kind of early push if you are fast expanding.
Then take the third expansions on Fighting Spirit. They are a bit more in the open, but they are up on high ground and any attackers going into it are going to be fighting on low ground to kill it (with the miss % in BW, this makes it a lot easier to defend). The only safe third expansion on Metalopolis, while to give it credit is further away from your opponent generally than closer, has two huge ramps on either side of it, completely separate from each other. There's no way that you can easily defend it unless you have a dominating control of the map already.
I tried using examples of a generally good BW map compared to a generally good SC2 map, and I think I'm barely even scratching the surface of the differences between how they are played on. I won't even get into the fact that the vast majority of SC2 maps on ladder currently have either a breakable 2nd entrance to the main, or a completely wide open natural that is impossible to defend early on.
I worry that the way BNet 2.0 is set up and the direction that Blizzard is headed with it, that better maps that custom mapmakers will eventually make (like how all good BW maps come out of professional Korean mapmakers) will never see the light of day in competitive play, let alone on an actual ladder.
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Even based on the few ICCup custom maps they've showcased, it seems more balance maps equals more brood-war like maps, with more open areas for zerg, and a little bit larger.
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Yea I can agree to this to a certain extent, I think blizz should use all the iccup maps BW -> sc2 port maps , they all bring amazing gameplay like fighting spirit, python, heartbreak ridge, ect.
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Sadly Raelcun complains only about the map features and not about the size of the maps ...
Zerg map = LARGE-HUGE map with a big center where you can outflank the enemy and actually use your mobility advantage. I have seen one Korean Zerg use a Nydus worm to simply go around the Terran army camped in the middle of the map on Metalopolis (he did NOT put the worm into the Terrans base, simply somewhere secret behind his army). This will force Terrans to use more "Bunker and Turret play" when they advance, just like we have seen in BW. Protoss probably need to be accompanied by a Warp Prism probably to have a mobile reinforcement pylon for their army (plus Warp Prisms to ferry the slow Immortals and Colossi to the front); also a defensive Mothership will be used to call back the army when their base is threatened.
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Well, thanks to this thread, I've started making an island map slightly favoring protoss. I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread. He's saying that we aren't sure how to make well balanced maps yet, so we need more radically different maps to play and examine.
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On August 27 2010 15:52 TedJustice wrote:
Well, thanks to this thread, I've started making an island map slightly favoring protoss. I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread. He's saying that we aren't sure how to make well balanced maps yet, so we need more radically different maps to play and examine.
People have downvoted Desert Oasis because it is radically different and because you need to have special builds for this map ... so good luck with your suggestion.
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On August 27 2010 16:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 15:52 TedJustice wrote:
Well, thanks to this thread, I've started making an island map slightly favoring protoss. I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread. He's saying that we aren't sure how to make well balanced maps yet, so we need more radically different maps to play and examine. People have downvoted Desert Oasis because it is radically different and because you need to have special builds for this map ... so good luck with your suggestion.
Bad example. DO is one of the dumbest maps ever. It's a perfect storm of bad ideas that migth be fine if not all grouped together in one map. Open nat, long run distance, short air distance, unusable 3rd bases, watchtowers that are easier than sin to control, etc...
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Russian Federation82 Posts
they need to add some maps with new structures like health fountains to help zerg 
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if you send this to Blizzard(hope you do) remember to say that your from ICCUP, and not just "herro im copper, fix T plz)
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EPT
