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On August 04 2010 04:36 Ainsworth wrote:
Zerg don't build enough queens. Queens + banelings + infestors + roaches = GG Terran. If you have mad WC3 micro skills like me, at least.
Lol really? I smell troll!!!! Plz post some rep of you beating a Terran with that Unit comp plz (can't be ai, must be Plat or higher).
War3 related, can you take out red camps with 2 grunt and a far seer? I think that's how hard it is to 'micro' war3 style in SC. Your army is smaller in war3, the units have less dps in relation to hp. See how long it takes for 2 NE archers to kill each other and then see how long it takes 2 marines to kill each other.
If you can micro like Boxer can in sc1, then i'll be impressed, while keeping up macro ofc.
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basically roaches are the hydralisks of sc1, they are the go to unit against mech. the real buff to mech was the roach food nerf,and tanks splash buff. imagine how stupid fending off mech would be in sc1 if your hydras were 2 food.
idra said something like tvz sucks ever since the roach nerf, i pretty much agree since it's an essential unit vs terran
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On August 04 2010 04:52 Qikz wrote:
Wait, one other thing I haven't ever seen used is baneling mines.
Why do people not use these? They explode and kill nearly everything to the unsuspecting player. They can detonate underground too, and it's not as if you generally have a raven with you.
I saw Cool using them to great effect against ThesTc but it's a lot of resources to pour into something which, if detected, is completely useless.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 04 2010 04:57 hyouro wrote:
baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck.
You mean, what, like exactly what spidermines did?
If the Terran is not expecting them, they won't scan them will they.
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On August 04 2010 04:26 eivind wrote:
Ton of gas? Big tech investment? 100 gas isnt that much. 2.5 Hydras = 1 tank in gas. 1.25 muta = 1 tank. Big tech investment? 1 tech lab + siege upgrade. Look at roaches with burrow. OL speed and OL drop.. It is far from big tech investment to get siege tanks. Especially since marine (no gas) counters air.
Tanks cost 125 gas and 150 minerals, along with factory and a tech lab (200/125), that'll allow you to build tanks a blistering pace of 1 tank per factory every 45 seconds. Want to build tanks faster? another 200/125, with a wait time of 85 seconds before you get to wait yet another 45 seconds for another siege tank.
Compared to Hydras or mutas which can be produced at a phenomenal rate after you built their tech building.
Which was why Z was so strong before the 2 supply roach nerf, cause you could conjure up a ridiculously large roach army mid - late game again and again and again and again, and no amount of tanks was going to save you.
On August 04 2010 04:57 hyouro wrote:
baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck.
Each scan means one less ZOMGNERFIMBA mule gets dropped. A CC can have a max of 4 scans. You can pretty much confine a T into his base until he gets Ravens. Which have shit for HP and can get sniped.
Re: Balance changes
I'm just curious to see why so many people want to make T as boring as Z, rather than making Z as lively as T.
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You can't compare banelings to spidermines.
I know what I would rather want.
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Burrowing gimmicks can help, but the party is over once he gets a Raven. Most people do.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 04 2010 05:16 brain_ wrote:
Burrowing gimmicks can help, but the party is over once he gets a Raven. Most people do.
So much like Broodwar with the Lurker and the Science Vessel then? 
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As a random player I think instead of nerfing Terran's tricks bag, We should add more to the protoss or zerg tricks bags. It's much more fun and much more interesting to play terran right now. It feels like as a Terran there's more to do.
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On August 04 2010 05:04 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:57 hyouro wrote:
baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck. You mean, what, like exactly what spidermines did? If the Terran is not expecting them, they won't scan them will they.
No. Spidermines are free. You still have a fighting unit after your mines get cleared. You have something to siege behind the mines to prevent people from clearing them. Banelings cost money. They cost larva. They have no support. If Terran decides to attack and your banelings get scanned, you will lose the game. Please don't compare these two things. Spider mines and baneling traps are nothing alike.
On August 04 2010 04:48 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:42 Calamity wrote:On August 04 2010 04:28 heishe wrote:
the problem is not that there are no possible counters to the terran bullshit, the problem is that he can constantly keep you at an disadvantage the whole game and he won't let you get to t3 let alone to ultras who take like 10 million years in real time to hatch. Thors take 60 secs to build. Ultras take 70 secs to build. In real time on fastest setting: Thors take 43 secs to build. Ultras take 50 secs to build. A 7 second difference in time, but Zergs can build several at a time while thors come out 1 at a time unless you have a lot of factories with tech labs. As I see it, Ultras don't take that long to build. Yeah, but getting an ultralisk DEN takes ages, and before that you will be pretty much dead to any mid-game push with 2 thors, 2-4 tanks and marines/hellion combo.
Yes. Compare the build time of barracks->factory->armory->thor to spawning pool->lair->infestor pit->hive->ultralisk cavern->ultralisk, not thor/ultralisk.
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On August 04 2010 02:48 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 01:44 koppik wrote:On August 04 2010 01:26 Defrag wrote:On August 03 2010 23:35 cuppatea wrote:On August 03 2010 23:21 MythicalMage wrote:On August 03 2010 23:20 cuppatea wrote:
The last tournament Idra competed in was the IEM qualifyer on Sunday, where he was 2-0'd by Silver (a Canadian Terran). Just because a full time pro gamer who gets paid to spend 10 hours a day practicing wins the odd tournament doesn't mean Zerg is doing well right now. Is there a replay/VoD. I'm curious how the games went. http://www.nationalesl.com/us/sc2/download/22422362/ Anyone saying ZvT is fine should watch those two replays . If hydras got +10 health every time a top Zerg underestimated his opponent, they'd be ultralisks with 5 range and 12 damage per shot. Wouldn't oGs.Cool's loss to Andro be a more striking example? You know, if Andro wasn't Protoss. Really, Blizzard would have patched the match-up if Zerg's weren't winning 50% of TvZ's in the top 1%. Or if the top Korean progamers Blizzard met with to discuss balance with thought it was a big problem. idra did everything right in game 1. he constantly scouted, he expanded, he had good amount of drones, he spread his creep, he kept his queens active, went spire to harass as best he could, spread his mutas vs thors... all silver did was wall off on one base, make a set mix of units, didnt even scout idras spire, put a few turrets up, then happily a-moved and rolled idras army/base. fair? no. something wrong? yes. It wasnt even a close fight. The matchup is in no way balanced in the early/midgame.
No, he did not "constantly scout." He sent in an OL early on and then did no scouting until he had a dozen mutas. His muta spread was half-ass, especially since he rallied two of them right into the middle of Silver's army before the main muta force arrived. He didn't focus-fire the mutas at all, from what I can tell. He walked his zerglings into Silver's army way before his mutas arrived, so they did basically no damage since the marines and thors were able to help kill them. Simple mis-micro.
And really, are you criticizing silver for inferring, from the number of zerglings he saw early game, that Idra would be going spire? If scan cost 100 minerals, like an overlord, it would be more economical against a powerhouse macro player like Idra. As it is, you risk putting yourself on the back foot by going for scans against someone who will be pumping drones hard.
Basically, Idra let himself be countered, mis-micro'd his unis, and threw a hissy fit when he lost. If you want to see a Zerg player that doesn't crack under pressure, go watch some of Check's games. He has some incredible replays up where he uses banelings to wipe out marines while attacking with spread mutas, against some very strong T players with excellent micro.
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On August 04 2010 05:11 Mensab wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:26 eivind wrote:
Ton of gas? Big tech investment? 100 gas isnt that much. 2.5 Hydras = 1 tank in gas. 1.25 muta = 1 tank. Big tech investment? 1 tech lab + siege upgrade. Look at roaches with burrow. OL speed and OL drop.. It is far from big tech investment to get siege tanks. Especially since marine (no gas) counters air.
Tanks cost 125 gas and 150 minerals, along with factory and a tech lab (200/125), that'll allow you to build tanks a blistering pace of 1 tank per factory every 45 seconds. Want to build tanks faster? another 200/125, with a wait time of 85 seconds before you get to wait yet another 45 seconds for another siege tank. Compared to Hydras or mutas which can be produced at a phenomenal rate after you built their tech building. Which was why Z was so strong before the 2 supply roach nerf, cause you could conjure up a ridiculously large roach army mid - late game again and again and again and again, and no amount of tanks was going to save you. I'm just curious to see why so many people want to make T as boring as Z, rather than making Z as lively as T.
The factory is needed in nearly every matchup whatever build you do. That's why I didnt include the cost, because I didnt see it as a tech cost for tanks. Just like i didnt include hive in the cost for OL speed.
I just feel like the tech cost is too big for Zerg, making the race very predictable - if you see a roach warren then you know only roaches will come the next minutes. If you see a factory you got no idea if it you go hellion/siege tank/thor. I'd rather have less larva and more diversity for Zerg.
Also give Infestor consume! I want it to eat Zerglings for dinner. Then the unit wouldnt be useless after 1-2 spells.. At least HTs can do something.
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Zerg early game is a mess , you need to fast expand but in risk of getting overpowered with a single push.
you make ground army but u an be cheesed with either vrays or banshees.
give starting overlord speed + armor so zerg can scout better in early game , atm with terran and toss wallin is just not hapening for zerg to have a good scouting .
Also overlords are sitting ducks vs any early air
give queens more armor + better aa to counter early vrays or banshees cheese.
Make creep unkillable , zerg has to even make a third queens to spread it , but considering more and more players have an observer or ravens or any scout to easy kill the creep that translates for zerg wasted resources and energy.
In later game i dont like banelings , they re too powerfull vs bio and all tvsz is banelings vs mech thing atm
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btw about the replays , so apparently the idea is that zerg must do everything perfect to have a chance vs sloppy terrans , o thats just great.
so with this logic a great terran should be able to streamroll any zerg player , just because cool is x10 better than most oponets doesnt mean squat.
also if u wanna talk about korean leagues both tester and ensnare owns with terran and toss lately in ogs vs prime matches anyway.
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On August 04 2010 05:50 st3roids wrote:
Zerg early game is a mess , you need to fast expand but in risk of getting overpowered with a single push.
you make ground army but u an be cheesed with either vrays or banshees.
give starting overlord speed + armor so zerg can scout better in early game , atm with terran and toss wallin is just not hapening for zerg to have a good scouting .
Also overlords are sitting ducks vs any early air
give queens more armor + better aa to counter early vrays or banshees cheese.
Make creep unkillable , zerg has to even make a third queens to spread it , but considering more and more players have an observer or ravens or any scout to easy kill the creep that translates for zerg wasted resources and energy.
In later game i dont like banelings , they re too powerfull vs bio and all tvsz is banelings vs mech thing atm
Queens are already very effective at countering air. Zerg just need to have an option of scouting air rush easier or reduce build time of queen so it isnt instant lose. It is very easy to hide a startport from a sloooooow moving overlord.
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TvZ is fine as it is if not in favor of the zerg a little now a days. Now that people have learned that you can go where the tanks are not(drops/nydus) and then ultras rape mech. Also have learned how to fend of harsment. Its a way more balanced game zerg do not need a buff.
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On August 04 2010 05:04 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:57 hyouro wrote:
baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck. You mean, what, like exactly what spidermines did? If the Terran is not expecting them, they won't scan them will they.
except you got 3 mines for a mineral only unit that you still used anyway in fights where as you pay 50 minerals 25 gas for 1 "spider mine" as zerg.
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[/QUOTE]
Queens are already very effective at countering air. Zerg just need to have an option of scouting air rush easier or reduce build time of queen so it isnt instant lose. It is very easy to hide a startport from a sloooooow moving overlord.
[/QUOTE]
um no theyr not 1 charge vray can kill a queen , a stealth early banshee where no overseers might be there own the queen and the whole hatchery.
Its so ridiculus even the least proposed changes to be disputed by average terran players who want their cheese to remain the same and streamrolled the zerg players as easy wins fyi.
Obviously there is a problem with statistics and zerg if u dont know math and u cant read them dont bother
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um no theyr not 1 charge vray can kill a queen , a stealth early banshee where no overseers might be there own the queen and the whole hatchery.
Its so ridiculus even the least proposed changes to be disputed by average terran players who want their cheese to remain the same and streamrolled the zerg players as easy wins fyi.
Obviously there is a problem with statistics and zerg if u dont know math and u cant read them dont bother
Statistics about the vast majority of players are worthless. What matters are the people at the top of the food chain. If top-level T start beating top-level Z consistently, both sides playing equally well, and it goes on for a reasonably long period of time, then you have a problem. But until you can show that to be the case, with significant evidence, then all these threads show is that some people don't want to recognize the flaws in their play.
I mean, can people really come into this thread and say "I'm a low-level diamond player, and I think..." and expect it to be taken seriously? You're free to voice your opinion, but to claim that it carries any weight is a joke.
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so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue .
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EPT
