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On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue .
Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was.
And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg.
You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player?
Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup."
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On August 04 2010 05:35 Amprophet wrote:
As a random player I think instead of nerfing Terran's tricks bag, We should add more to the protoss or zerg tricks bags. It's much more fun and much more interesting to play terran right now. It feels like as a Terran there's more to do.
While I agree, I think that's what Blizzard is saving to do in HotS and LotV
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On August 04 2010 06:22 NATO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 05:35 Amprophet wrote:
As a random player I think instead of nerfing Terran's tricks bag, We should add more to the protoss or zerg tricks bags. It's much more fun and much more interesting to play terran right now. It feels like as a Terran there's more to do. While I agree, I think that's what Blizzard is saving to do in HotS and LotV
Blizzard said that there will be 1½ year between the expansions....Now please tell me. Do you think it is reasonable to wait 1½ before Zerg get's anything?
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Regarding MULES: Why not just make it so mules have a cooldown rate. I mean if the problem is that zerg and protoss players have to look offscreen more than a terran player, then it only makes sense to put a cooldown rate on mule production. Keep the mule stats exactly the same, just make producing them harder. This way, a terran who is not as good at macroing won't just call down 10 mules at once because he wasn't paying attention. The energy will stockpile and he'll have to use them on scans. Granted that scans aren't bad, but it's still better than getting a whole ton of minerals all at once because you call down 10 mules. Only problem I see with this solution is that it is completely a terran nerf. It does not reward good players. Maybe as a compensation tool make mules have faster repair or make them able to mine gas.
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On August 04 2010 06:22 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue . Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was. And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg. You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player? Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup."
Can you please just keep quiet with the 173173 tournament...IT IS FUCKING OLD AS HELL.
On to another thing that annoys me, KOTB was played just after phase 2 started. Which means all of them were rusty since they haven't played for the entire break. Now besides that fact, 1 tournament doesn't mean shit anyways. Please take a look at all the cups that has been played recently. I think you can make something out of that instead of a single tournament. Or do you have another flawed opinion about this?
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Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was.
I fell of my chair sorry , so the game was lost for the critical part where 2 mutas were lost...
How can u spread mutas ffs put 10 diferent mutas in 10 diferent hotkeys plus micro + macro whereas terran can have all the units in ctrl 1 and dominate ith a single push.
Also spreading what ffs mutas aint butter and thors have rnage 9 or 10 vs mutas range of 3 enugh with the bs rly.
Bah why arguing is easier to swap race and dominate.
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On August 04 2010 05:04 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 04:57 hyouro wrote:
baneling bombs is a gimmick, and 1 scan ruins your whole day...therefore they suck. You mean, what, like exactly what spidermines did? If the Terran is not expecting them, they won't scan them will they.
yeah maybe if each spidermine required, gas, minerals, morph time, supply and a larva. do you even think about your analogies before you post? it's becoming absurd.
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On August 04 2010 06:31 hyouro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:22 PanzerKing wrote:On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue . Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was. And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg. You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player? Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup." Can you please just keep quiet with the 173173 tournament...IT IS FUCKING OLD AS HELL. On to another thing that annoys me, KOTB was played just after phase 2 started. Which means all of them were rusty since they haven't played for the entire break. Now besides that fact, 1 tournament doesn't mean shit anyways. Please take a look at all the cups that has been played recently. I think you can make something out of that instead of a single tournament. Or do you have another flawed opinion about this?
You're making excuses instead of contesting the main point. Z continue to win tournaments played at the highest level of skill. Come show me some evidence that T dominates Z at the highest level of skill, all else equal, and you'll have a coherent argument. Otherwise, the problem is just bad Zerg players who don't want to admit it.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
I'm just saying they're like spidermines in the case of they can devistate an army if not scanned, but once they're scanned they're useless, so you need to try and force the Terran or bait him into them. I'm not saying that they're free, but if you're going to go for Banelings for some reason, I'd much rather burrow them and use them as mines than have them blown up instantly by tanks.
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On August 04 2010 06:41 Qikz wrote:
I'm just saying they're like spidermines in the case of they can devistate an army if not scanned, but once they're scanned they're useless, so you need to try and force the Terran or bait him into them. I'm not saying that they're free, but if you're going to go for Banelings for some reason, I'd much rather burrow them and use them as mines than have them blown up instantly by tanks.
comparison still fails. if a T scans spidermines he kills them and pushes forward. the player didn't lose anything other than his attempt at slowing the T push. T scans 50 supply of burrowed banelings and the Z loses.
so yes, both spidermines and banelings can kill stuff from underneath but beside that they are nothing alike.
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United Kingdom12064 Posts
Where did I ever say you need 50 supply worth of banelings? If anything, you'd only need like 4 banelings, even one or two, it forces the Terran to waste a scan and you haven't lost anything that important, also, while he's busy killing the banelings you can easily flank them or counter while his army is busy.
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On August 04 2010 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:
You're making excuses instead of contesting the main point. Z continue to win tournaments played at the highest level of skill. Come show me some evidence that T dominates Z at the highest level of skill, all else equal, and you'll have a coherent argument. Otherwise, the problem is just bad Zerg players who don't want to admit it.
The problem is not really the hightest gaming balance. Zerg players tend to be in good position in that, but in let's say platinum / mid diamond level u will see a huge difference beetwen zerg and terran.
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On August 04 2010 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:31 hyouro wrote:On August 04 2010 06:22 PanzerKing wrote:On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue . Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was. And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg. You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player? Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup." Can you please just keep quiet with the 173173 tournament...IT IS FUCKING OLD AS HELL. On to another thing that annoys me, KOTB was played just after phase 2 started. Which means all of them were rusty since they haven't played for the entire break. Now besides that fact, 1 tournament doesn't mean shit anyways. Please take a look at all the cups that has been played recently. I think you can make something out of that instead of a single tournament. Or do you have another flawed opinion about this? You're making excuses instead of contesting the main point. Z continue to win tournaments played at the highest level of skill. Come show me some evidence that T dominates Z at the highest level of skill, all else equal, and you'll have a coherent argument. Otherwise, the problem is just bad Zerg players who don't want to admit it.
Idra can be considered one of the best players in the world right now. Silver although I'm not going to say he is bad is clearly not one of the best players in the world. He beat Idra easily. Then he went on to play Huk another great player. Huk raped him in the final game. Literally raped him. Killed his main shut down his expansion and then what do you know. One base terran rebuilt everything went out with a couple of vikings and marines and raped Huks entire army. Terran is op. He did not have any scouting until the void rays hit him and he still won. Idra even scouted what the Silver was doing, but against terran opness there was nothing he could do.
Terran is def OP right now. They can do tech changes whenever. They can scout any tech changes without sacing any units with a simple scan. They have easy micro/macro mechanics. Want me to go on cause i could.
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On August 04 2010 06:40 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 06:31 hyouro wrote:On August 04 2010 06:22 PanzerKing wrote:On August 04 2010 06:16 st3roids wrote:
so the argument is wait till every top terran owns every zerg player and then we see , thats just great.
In king of the beta were two terran in finals and if u compare tester and idra vs qxc and itr theres no comparison rly terms of player accomplisments yet 2 terran in the finals with zerg almost barely making it .
also in the idra vs silver thing , i mean srsly in metalopolis replay at about 8:50 ,
classic 1 base terran having thor and siege tanks and helions and marines vs 2 base zerg with few banelings and 3 static defences and more mineral supply for terran i mean rofl , it just isnt a comparison here yet some still argue . Uh yeah, Idra lost because his micro was terrible. Maybe you should go watch the part where he rallied two free mutas into the T army, or where he walked his lings in before his mutas so that they were wiped out while doing no damage and the marines were free to shoot the mutas. Or you could look at how half-ass his muta spread was. And really, 2-base zerg vs. 1-base T? You're throwing that out as a sign that Idra should have won? By that measure, every zerg should win every game, because almost nobody plays one-base zerg. You think QXC isn't a top player? Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you not seen him play? Since you're only familiar with the KOTB tournament, did you miss the part where he completely demolished IntoTheRainbow, another top-level player? Reallyl, you have no argument except "Idra is a god and if he ever loses, despite playing badly, it means that Zerg are broken and T is overpowered and need nerfs. Ignore the fact that Zerg continues to win tournaments, like the KOTB tournament and the 173173 SC2 World Cup." Can you please just keep quiet with the 173173 tournament...IT IS FUCKING OLD AS HELL. On to another thing that annoys me, KOTB was played just after phase 2 started. Which means all of them were rusty since they haven't played for the entire break. Now besides that fact, 1 tournament doesn't mean shit anyways. Please take a look at all the cups that has been played recently. I think you can make something out of that instead of a single tournament. Or do you have another flawed opinion about this? You're making excuses instead of contesting the main point. Z continue to win tournaments played at the highest level of skill. Come show me some evidence that T dominates Z at the highest level of skill, all else equal, and you'll have a coherent argument. Otherwise, the problem is just bad Zerg players who don't want to admit it.
Recent tournaments (from phase 2 onwards):
IEM qualifyer - Won by Silver (Terran), who 2-0'd Idra along the way.
IOL LAN - Top 4 all Terran (Sjow, Morrow, Jinro, Merz).
Craftcup #10 - 6 Terran in the top 8, won by Strelok (T) over Jimpo (T) in the final.
GosuCoaching #6 - Won by Drewbie (T), with Silver (T) 3rd/4th.
Go4SC2 #25 - 2 Terran in the top 3 (Cloud 1st/2nd, final hasn't been played yet afaik, Tarson 3rd).
Go4SC2 #24 - 2 Terran in the top 3 (Salens 2nd, Lucifron 3rd).
Go4SC2 #23 - Strelok (T) 1st, Goody (T) 4th.
Go4SC2 #22 - Morrow (T) 1st, And3ad (T) 2nd.
Zotac #16 - 3 Terran in the top 4, Demuslim (T) over Jimpo (T) in the final.
WTA #1 - ThesTc (T) 1st, Hannibal (T) 3rd.
Chinese Domination Challenge - Won by Loner (T), without dropping a map.
KOTB - QXC (T) and IntoTheRainbow (T) 3rd/4th.
The only tournaments since phase 2 I can recall that weren't won by Terran were Go4SC2 #24, which had 2 Terran in the top 3 and KOTB, which had 2 Terran in the top 4.
It's not as if there are just 1 or 2 supremely skilled Terrans dominating these tournaments either, there have been dozens of different T players progressing to the latter stages of competitions recently. Just look at the GosuGamer rankings, which are based on recent results and have 23 Terran in the top 40, compared to 9 Protoss and 8 Zerg.
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Lets all hope that blizzard will fix it asap
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
Your proposed changes to MULE/SCAN would make Terran more powerful - not weaker.
First, opening incoming ramps up faster. Whereas the second mule came down at the 2:25 mark, your 1st mini-MULE starts mining at 2:00, 2nd @ 2:10, 3rd @2:20 and 4th @ 2:30. So by 2:25 Terran now has an extra 150 mineral - which is HUGE. (These numbers are just an example to illustrate a point)
Second, your change diminishes a tension between MULE/SCAN. Terran scans has more uses than just peeking into someone's base: checking expansions, army position and cloak detection. In all three cases, the tradeoff for smaller radius/energy is a win for Terran.
Where is all this Terran hate coming from? I've seen nothing from top ladder statistics which suggests that Terrans are OP. So some people might say that Protoss/Zerg players just have more skill, to them I say: Switch to Terran, show us your OP ladder rank and prove your point.
There are other mechanic sinks other than the new macro mechanics. So stop comparing race-to-race macro by contrasting "macro-mechanics" in isolation. Building add-ons, swapping add-ons, upgrade from add-ons, setting rally points. After landing any building you need to reset its rally point - hope you didn't forget to do it. Lowering supply depot, move units out - if you click too fast the pathing-AI bugs out. Army/unit positioning - caught out of position, I don't think that any race gets punished more than Terran. Making production buildings, tab-cycling, building units from the structure with the correct add-on. Repairing units - taking the correct number of SCVs off minerals to repair then sending them back.
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Problem lies in gimped Zerg, not overpowered Terran. Blizzard basically sold us an unfinished product. Also, balance could be achieved by proper maps, current ladder map pool is really poorly designed. Atm maps force zergs to go some strange route of 1 basing or some other strange semi allin strategies.
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On August 04 2010 06:55 Qikz wrote:
Where did I ever say you need 50 supply worth of banelings? If anything, you'd only need like 4 banelings, even one or two, it forces the Terran to waste a scan and you haven't lost anything that important, also, while he's busy killing the banelings you can easily flank them or counter while his army is busy.
"devastate an army"
I arbitrarily selected the amount of units it would take to 'devastate' an army as you put it. If you think 4 supply banelings will succeed in that, well.. yeah.
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I actually agree with most of these ideas. The numbers could/should be tweaked, but a lot of these seem logical to me.
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On August 04 2010 06:31 Zerksys wrote:
Regarding MULES: Why not just make it so mules have a cooldown rate. I mean if the problem is that zerg and protoss players have to look offscreen more than a terran player, then it only makes sense to put a cooldown rate on mule production. Keep the mule stats exactly the same, just make producing them harder. This way, a terran who is not as good at macroing won't just call down 10 mules at once because he wasn't paying attention. The energy will stockpile and he'll have to use them on scans. Granted that scans aren't bad, but it's still better than getting a whole ton of minerals all at once because you call down 10 mules. Only problem I see with this solution is that it is completely a terran nerf. It does not reward good players. Maybe as a compensation tool make mules have faster repair or make them able to mine gas.
That's what I was thinking. A zerg that misses a larva inject is punished pretty heavily. A terran that misses a mule just drops two at a time. Having a cooldown on mules would force the terran to pay more attention to dropping them everytime the cooldown's up. It also balances out the whole... drop 8 mules on a new gold expansion. That's just ... ridiculous.
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EPT
